GunnerBill Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I dunno if you guys are just trolling or whatever but come on...it is WAY more illuminating to look at this year than last year, considering last year was ALWAYS going to be the down year for Buffalo as a result of the rebuild. Looking @this year is absolutely a better means of evaluating than last year, wtf this thread is so full of holes the arguments are falling out lmao I didn't say that and you know full well I didn't. I said looking at any single year is not illuminating. I don't actually know why people are so determined to pretend that the route McDermott and Beane went was the only viable option. I'd have thought they take much more credit from a position that admits there were a number of choices and they have chosen one that has worked out for them. I wanted a rebuild. I support the choice they made. But it was a choice. 1
Buffalo716 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yes exactly. People like @Buffalo716 and I believe Jim Kubiak (QB guru and writer at TBN) phrase it as "passing" vs "throwing" Orlovsky is using "throwing" vs "aiming". Same meaning, different set of words. Yea he's using different words for the same meaning Some say throwing vs aiming Others say passing vs throwing
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I didn't say that and you know full well I didn't. I said looking at any single year is not illuminating. I don't actually know why people are so determined to pretend that the route McDermott and Beane went was the only viable option. I'd have thought they take much more credit from a position that admits there were a number of choices and they have chosen one that has worked out for them. I wanted a rebuild. I support the choice they made. But it was a choice. I brought up this year because, well...this is the one we're in. It's a lot less controversial a year than last year for comparison's sake. So I agree that a single year is not particularly illuminating vis a vis McDermott/Lynn/Reid and their teams/offenses/QBs etc, but last year is FAR less illuminating than this year for a number of reasons. And as for the bolded...who is saying that? All I've seen from people supportive of the rebuild is that it appears to have worked, not that it was the only way to go about it. The guy who was adamant that keeping Lynn and drafting Mahomes to go along with Sammy Watkins was somehow the superior option.
FireChans Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I didn't say that and you know full well I didn't. I said looking at any single year is not illuminating. I don't actually know why people are so determined to pretend that the route McDermott and Beane went was the only viable option. I'd have thought they take much more credit from a position that admits there were a number of choices and they have chosen one that has worked out for them. I wanted a rebuild. I support the choice they made. But it was a choice. Not to mention, it’s not as though EVERY decision Beane and McD did was in effort to tear everything down. They kept TT. They could have easily walked away in 2017 and gone full rebuild and gotten a top 5 pick. They traded for KB midway through the season. They could have rolled with Jordan Matthews and Zay that year. They absorbed Dareus’ Hit and immediately threw $10M at Star. Sure, they planned on growing pains and a down year in 2018. But not every decision was made by that aim. With hindsight, they would have been better paying Woods than trading for KB, trading for Matthews or drafting Zay. They made some decisions for now and some decisions for the future. We are in a good spot, but every single decision wasn’t made “to be crappy in 17/2018 and be good in 19.”
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 23 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: I brought up this year because, well...this is the one we're in. It's a lot less controversial a year than last year for comparison's sake. So I agree that a single year is not particularly illuminating vis a vis McDermott/Lynn/Reid and their teams/offenses/QBs etc, but last year is FAR less illuminating than this year for a number of reasons. And as for the bolded...who is saying that? All I've seen from people supportive of the rebuild is that it appears to have worked, not that it was the only way to go about it. The guy who was adamant that keeping Lynn and drafting Mahomes to go along with Sammy Watkins was somehow the superior option. To be fair, last year when the cap cupboard was bare, there were a goodly number of people here who did insist that McDermott and Beane had no choice but to blow things up. And those (like myself) who argued that the cap situation was a self-induced wound and that we had alternatives at several points took a lot of flak for that. 2
Magox Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) Of course it wasn’t the ONLY alternative but it was the one they chose because they wanted to build it their way with their players with their culture. They did it THEIR way and their way has shown to be a really really good way. In regards to this cap talk that it was self-induced is shallow. It’s shallow because it lacks complete and total context. Technically it was self-induced in some manners because they did shed players that contributed to dead cap weight, but the players they shed were players they didn’t want. For whatever reason some of you are having a very hard time understanding that basic concept. THEY DID NOT WANT THOSE GUYS. They wanted to save the money and get draft choices in return and bring in players that they wanted to build this team with. Edited December 21, 2019 by Magox
FireChans Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 58 minutes ago, Magox said: Of course it wasn’t the ONLY alternative but it was the one they chose because they wanted to build it their way with their players with their culture. They did it THEIR way and their way has shown to be a really really good way. In regards to this cap talk that it was self-induced is shallow. It’s shallow because it lacks complete and total context. Technically it was self-induced in some manners because they did shed players that contributed to dead cap weight, but the players they shed were players they didn’t want. For whatever reason some of you are having a very hard time understanding that basic concept. THEY DID NOT WANT THOSE GUYS. They wanted to save the money and get draft choices in return and bring in players that they wanted to build this team with. Is that why they traded for Jordan Matthews (cut), KB (cut)? Is that why they traded Dareus, (accelerating his hit) and then turning around and giving Star $40M to replace him? You can’t say these moves were to shed salary and get draft picks when they did never did both.
BADOLBILZ Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Why only 2015-16? Because those were McCoy's worst years and they fit your theory? As far as Reid goes, he basically turned Alex Smith into a different person. I picked 2015-2016 because those were the two years prior to Lynn going there? I mean, wtf kinda' question is that? Speaking of which Alex Smith was 19-5 in his last two seasons in San Francisco. Reid didn't make him into a game manager.......he was already that guy. Do you watch the NFL? Alex Smith had a 70% completion percentage and 104 QB rating in his last year with the Niners. Would you take a second to fact check your takes? Edited December 21, 2019 by Hapless Bills Fan inappropriate language
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Magox said: Of course it wasn’t the ONLY alternative but it was the one they chose because they wanted to build it their way with their players with their culture. So far we're good. 100% agreement. 1 hour ago, Magox said: In regards to this cap talk that it was self-induced is shallow. It’s shallow because it lacks complete and total context. Technically it was self-induced in some manners because they did shed players that contributed to dead cap weight, but the players they shed were players they didn’t want. For whatever reason some of you are having a very hard time understanding that basic concept. THEY DID NOT WANT THOSE GUYS. This, on the other hand, is Wide Right, Wide Left, and short of the mark. The cap talk was a self-induced wound. Period. The context of why Beane and McDermott chose that path (didn't want those players, wanted to accelerate the cap hit) is irrelevant to that point. They chose to shed those players at a time when we would absorb a massive cap hit for it. No one has any trouble understanding what you're SHOUTING ABOUT IN ALL CAPS, but the fact is, they chose to go about shedding players they didn't want in a way and on a timeline that generated massive dead cap. The fact that they had alternatives, and chose to do it because for (*reasons*) they thought it was best, is the very essence of considering something "self-induced"
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: I picked 2015-2016 because those were the two years prior to Lynn going there? I mean, wtf kinda' question is that? Speaking of which Alex Smith was 19-5 in his last two seasons in San Francisco. Reid didn't make him into a game manager.......he was already that guy. Do you watch the NFL? Alex Smith had a 70% completion percentage and 104 QB rating in his last year with the Niners. Would you take a second to fact check your takes? Lmao @this. Go look at Smith in San Francisco vs KC efficiency statistics. It’s not even a comparison. Better yet, go actually watch those games instead of quoting completion% and QB rating. Joking w this The Lynn thing...no idea why but if you wanna carry that cross be my guest. He was handed a talented underperforming roster and hasn’t done anything really spectacular with it. Won one wildcard game...congrats I guess.
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: So far we're good. 100% agreement. This, on the other hand, is Wide Right, Wide Left, and short of the mark. The cap talk was a self-induced wound. Period. The context of why Beane and McDermott chose that path (didn't want those players, wanted to accelerate the cap hit) is irrelevant to that point. They chose to shed those players at a time when we would absorb a massive cap hit for it. No one has any trouble understanding what you're SHOUTING ABOUT IN ALL CAPS, but the fact is, they chose to go about shedding players they didn't want in a way and on a timeline that generated massive dead cap. The fact that they had alternatives, and chose to do it because for (*reasons*) they thought it was best, is the very essence of considering something "self-induced" His point is calling something self induced connotes an unnecessary infliction of pain, and if you believe (like this FO did) that building a team around paying guys like Dareus, Watkins, and Gilmore was not the best way to go about it...’self-induced’ is interchangeable w/ ‘unavoidable’ which imo is a better representation of their motives.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: His point is calling something self induced connotes an unnecessary infliction of pain, and if you believe (like this FO did) that building a team around paying guys like Dareus, Watkins, and Gilmore was not the best way to go about it...’self-induced’ is interchangeable w/ ‘unavoidable’ which imo is a better representation of their motives. OK - that's not my connotation of self-induced - if I cut my finger, it's a self-induced wound whether it's intentional and unnecessary or not. I think it's clear they did what they felt was best for their plan, it just comes back to there were other ways to handle it. Gilmore, BTW, left after his option year in 2016. They had a choice as to whether or not they made a bid to re-sign him, but he isn't part of the "self induced wound/cap hit" conversation.
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: OK - that's not my connotation of self-induced - if I cut my finger, it's a self-induced wound whether it's intentional and unnecessary or not. I think it's clear they did what they felt was best for their plan, it just comes back to there were other ways to handle it. Gilmore, BTW, left after his option year in 2016. They had a choice as to whether or not they made a bid to re-sign him, but he isn't part of the "self induced wound/cap hit" conversation. It’s more like if you had to cut off your arm to free yourself from getting crushed by a rock: would you still call that a self induced injury?
BADOLBILZ Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Lmao @this. Go look at Smith in San Francisco vs KC efficiency statistics. It’s not even a comparison. Better yet, go actually watch those games instead of quoting completion% and QB rating. Joking w this The Lynn thing...no idea why but if you wanna carry that cross be my guest. He was handed a talented underperforming roster and hasn’t done anything really spectacular with it. Won one wildcard game...congrats I guess. Smith had 70% completion percentage 8 ypa and a 104 QB rating in his last year in SF...........he was already good..........Reid didn't change him into "a totally different person". That's literally the most "efficient" season of his career. 5 years into his KC career he had similar efficiency over more games and more pass attempts but the previous 4 years in KC he averaged about 65% completion and a low 90's QBR.......and the next year he had a relatively sharp decline in efficiency. He was what he was when Reid got him. Like I said.........you just don't follow the NFL closely enough and you won't fact check your dubious opinions.
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: Smith had 70% completion percentage 8 ypa and a 104 QB rating in his last year in SF...........he was already good..........Reid didn't change him into "a totally different person". That's literally the most "efficient" season of his career. 5 years into his KC career he had similar efficiency over more games and more pass attempts but the previous 4 years in KC he averaged about 65% completion and a low 90's QBR.......and the next year he had a relatively sharp decline in efficiency. He was what he was when Reid got him. Like I said.........you just don't follow the NFL closely enough and you won't fact check your dubious opinions. Absolutely one of the most ridiculous tales I’ve seen, you either have never watched Alex Smith play football before or just trolling for fun
BADOLBILZ Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Absolutely one of the most ridiculous tales I’ve seen, you either have never watched Alex Smith play football before or just trolling for fun I saw him put up over 600 yards of offense on the Bills in San Fran once...........worst defensive performance in team history. But he wasn't any good then, right?
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 Alex Smith w/49ers- 59.3% comp, 81/63 TD/INT, 5.01 ANY/A, 178.5 ypg, 79.1 qb rating Alex Smith w/Reid- 65.1% comp, 102/33 Td/INT, 6.52 ANY/A, 232 ypg, 94.8 qb rating yeah Andy Reid didn't help Smith at ALL lmao
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 (edited) Deleted Edited December 21, 2019 by GoBills808
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 2 hours ago, GoBills808 said: It’s more like if you had to cut off your arm to free yourself from getting crushed by a rock: would you still call that a self induced injury? Yes, I would actually, but I'd also call it a very poor analogy to cutting or trading a highly-paid player one no longer wants and taking a massive cap hit that year. If you've been dumb enough to pull an Aron Ralston, you may literally have no alternative but do it or die. Can we agree that Beane and McDermott literally did have other alternatives?
GoBills808 Posted December 21, 2019 Posted December 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Yes, I would actually, but I'd also call it a very poor analogy to cutting or trading a highly-paid player one no longer wants and taking a massive cap hit that year. If you've been dumb enough to pull an Aron Ralston, you may literally have no alternative but do it or die. Can we agree that Beane and McDermott literally did have other alternatives? I don’t disagree with that. I mean, there are a lot of things they could have done differently. But to rebuild it from the ground up they needed to drop the guys who weren’t part of the future and that meant dead cap, pretty cut and dry if you ask me. These guys took risks. They bet on themselves and left zero doubt as to who was to blame if it fell apart. I give them a lot of credit. And as someone who has an understanding about how hard that kind of work is, I don’t see much value in fantasizing about what ifs.
Recommended Posts