Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 Might be a good place to put this. Matt Fairburn article on Allen's background https://theathletic.com/1504108/2020/01/02/is-that-all-you-got-the-times-josh-allens-teammates-and-coaches-learned-he-was-different/ Athletic, paywall. Worth reading IMO. TL;DR or don't subscribe/want to trial, some excerpts (quotes in italics): Fairburn goes back to Allen's Pop Warner days and traces the roots of his "gamer" DNA. “He’s always had it in him,” said Michael Tate, who coached Allen in Pop Warner. “He was a little runt, but he was athletic, he was smart and he knew what he was doing,” Tate said. “But he was aggressive as well and he didn’t care." Reedley College (JuCo) OC Rodriguez: " “I think the biggest thing about him is he just has this mentality that the game is never over until it says zeroes,” Rodriguez said. “He just keeps grinding. I think that comes from his hard work and his ethic and the discipline to just keep on grinding until it’s over.” Describes a game where they were trailing 28-7 at half: " “I just literally questioned their manhood,” Rodriguez said. “I said, ‘Listen, right now, they’re kicking our butts. So what are you going to do about it?’” Allen stepped up. “We’re not out of this,” he said. “This is what we need to do.” Allen led a furious second-half comeback, throwing four touchdowns and running for one more. His fifth touchdown of the half and sixth of the game gave Reedley a 43-42 lead with 44 seconds left in the game, but the defense surrendered a six-play, 77-yard drive in 28 seconds to lose the game. Wyoming DE Eddie Yarbrough said. “You know there’s guys that shy away from the big moment or fold up during the big moment and, for some reason even in college, Josh was the guy that stood up in those big moments and in those moments he gets better. He lives for those moments. Game is on the line and it’s time to make a big play and it’s down to the wire, Josh might as well be sitting back smoking a cigarette saying, ‘Oh yeah, this is my time.’” Before the NFL Draft: "multiple scouts who studied and interviewed Allen questioned his ability to take charge of an NFL locker room. ..... Ask around the Bills’ locker room, though, and it’s obvious that the leadership and late-game heroics have made players want to follow him. There’s no question about his ability to lead grown men. Cole Beasley: “He plays quarterback, but he’s not your typical quarterback who never wants to get hit,” Cole Beasley said. “He’s a gamer, man. He just wants to be in the game any way possible and he’s going to put his body on the line for his teammates to get that extra inch or go the extra mile for us off the field, as well. Guys love him and love playing with him. They would run through a wall for him. When the game is on the line, he doesn’t think about pressure or anything like that, he’s just going to the next play, one snap at a time, and does the best that he can in each individual moment to help us get there.” Reedley College OC Rodriguez on the playoff game: “He’s not going to get fazed by it being a big matchup,” Rodriguez said. “A game is a game to him. He’s going to approach it the same every time: ‘What am I going to do to put our team in the best position to win? What am I going to do to make sure that these guys know we’re going to win and we’re going to do it our way and dominate?’ “It shouldn’t be too big for him.” LETS GO BUFFALO!!!!! 1 1
Dr. Who Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 18 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Kyler Murray and Daniel Jones are both having better rookie years than Allen’s sophomore year... And everybody knows the main reason the Bills are in the playoffs is not because of Allen... And it’s not resentment, it’s envy...I envy teams with good QB play...because at this point, we have had it very sparingly in Allen’s first two seasons... I wouldn't trade Allen for either one of those guys. Lot of Allen's play is dictated by tactical decisions based on the superlative quality of the Bills' defense. Allen's first year was skewed by terrible o-line and virtually no playmakers. Allen is a good qb who is likely to get better. Sorry you see a different narrative, but I think you are wrong. 4
Pokebball Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 7 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Define better. They both threw more INT's than Josh. 7 of Murray's picks came in his last 5 games. Josh threw 3 INT's in his last 11 games. And is Daniel Jones really having a better year than Josh Allen? His 3,000 passing yards and 26 TD's are better than Josh Allen's 3,000 passing yards and 30 TD's? These are really the margins that you're staking your "Josh Allen isn't good enough" claims on to prove that young qb's are way out performing him all over the league? I think a lot of fans negativity towards Josh is fueled by resentment and it's clouding their ability to accept where he's at as well as his ability to continue to get better. EDIT - envy is another deadly sin my brethren Bills fan! Anyone can cherry pick stats to prove their point. And of course, a good QB is so much more that a stat. It involves heart, attitude, culture, leadership and more. JA is bringing the best out of the talent around him, much of which is rookie/young talent. I would chose JA over either guy and I wouldn't have to give it a second thought. 3
Motorin' Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: I wouldn't trade Allen for either one of those guys. Lot of Allen's play is dictated by tactical decisions based on the superlative quality of the Bills' defense. Allen's first year was skewed by terrible o-line and virtually no playmakers. Allen is a good qb who is likely to get better. Sorry you see a different narrative, but I think you are wrong. at this point, it's clear the Bills management holds this view too. And short of significant regression, Josh is going to be the starting qb for many years. This every day debate about whether Josh is an NFL quality qb is exhausting. 3 1
JaCrispy Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Dr. Who said: I wouldn't trade Allen for either one of those guys. Lot of Allen's play is dictated by tactical decisions based on the superlative quality of the Bills' defense. Allen's first year was skewed by terrible o-line and virtually no playmakers. Allen is a good qb who is likely to get better. Sorry you see a different narrative, but I think you are wrong. That is a fair point about playing to the defense... however I do not believe Allen is a good QB YET...for my own personal definition, I will know when he becomes a good QB because I will have confidence that he can make any throw when he needs to (the two crucial misses to Knox against the Pats was not that...a good Qb hits at least one of those) and I will have confidence that he can rise to the occasion against the better teams in the league which he has yet to do, in fact he seems to play his worst. when you have a good QB on your hands you KNOW it...although it is still possible I just am not convinced yet- I do not have that confidence the Hawks fans have with Wilson or KC fans have with Mahomes...those fans have confidence every time their team takes the field their QB is going to be better than the one across the way...So when Josh finally arrives I will feel the same way, but not yet. Edited January 3, 2020 by JaCrispy
JaCrispy Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 33 minutes ago, Motorin' said: at this point, it's clear the Bills management holds this view too. And short of significant regression, Josh is going to be the starting qb for many years. This every day debate about whether Josh is an NFL quality qb is exhausting. I agree, but that’s precisely because many fans are not yet convinced!..they WANT to be convinced , desperately , buuuuut there is still things about his play that hold people back from being convinced. And their hearts will not betray what their eyes see...I want there to be no doubt! I want Josh to prove to everyone that he can’t be denied! it’s just that there are still several key things he does that people can still point to that are below average.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: I agree, but that’s precisely because many fans are not yet convinced!..they WANT to be convinced , desperately , buuuuut there is still things about his play that hold people back from being convinced. And their hearts will not betray what their eyes see...I want there to be no doubt! I want Josh to prove to everyone that he can’t be denied! it’s just that there are still several key things he does that people can still point to that are below average. Or its a vocal minority, who he will likely be able to only convince a few after he wins a Super Bowl.
Pokebball Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: I agree, but that’s precisely because many fans are not yet convinced!..they WANT to be convinced , desperately , buuuuut there is still things about his play that hold people back from being convinced. And their hearts will not betray what their eyes see...I want there to be no doubt! I want Josh to prove to everyone that he can’t be denied! it’s just that there are still several key things he does that people can still point to that are below average. What were your (or these fans) expectations for JA at this point in time? If you thought JA would be better than he is by now, I'd suggest your expectations were too high. JA is exceeding all of my expectations to date. I am very pleased with his progress so far. Comparing him, now, to Wilson and Mahomes doesn't seem reasonable to me. Edited January 3, 2020 by Pokebball
Rubes Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 Just caught this thread today. That was a nice review. I'm especially glad he called out Brown on that ***** route on 4th down against the Ravens, I was thinking the same thing when it happened.
Nextmanup Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, JaCrispy said: Kyler Murray and Daniel Jones are both having better rookie years than Allen’s sophomore year... And everybody knows the main reason the Bills are in the playoffs is not because of Allen... And it’s not resentment, it’s envy...I envy teams with good QB play...because at this point, we have had it very sparingly in Allen’s first two seasons... We have enjoyed good quarterback play very sparingly over the last twenty years! It's been so bad for so long, most of this fanbase thinks Allen is really good. 1 1
JaCrispy Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 31 minutes ago, Pokebball said: What were your (or these fans) expectations for JA at this point in time? If you thought JA would be better than he is by now, I'd suggest your expectations were too high. JA is exceeding all of my expectations to date. I am very pleased with his progress so far. Comparing him, now, to Wilson and Mahomes doesn't seem reasonable to me. Your not understanding what I’m saying then...
Pokebball Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Your not understanding what I’m saying then... I think we understand each other. I think we disagree. And that's OK. Edited January 3, 2020 by Pokebball 1
Motorin' Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, JaCrispy said: That is a fair point about playing to the defense... however I do not believe Allen is a good QB YET...for my own personal definition, I will know when he becomes a good QB because I will have confidence that he can make any throw when he needs to (the two crucial misses to Knox against the Pats was not that...a good Qb hits at least one of those) and I will have confidence that he can rise to the occasion against the better teams in the league which he has yet to do, in fact he seems to play his worst. when you have a good QB on your hands you KNOW it...although it is still possible I just am not convinced yet- I do not have that confidence the Hawks fans have with Wilson or KC fans have with Mahomes...those fans have confidence every time their team takes the field their QB is going to be better than the one across the way...So when Josh finally arrives I will feel the same way, but not yet. So basically you're not comfortable with uncertainty and aren't willing to accept that growth and development are part of the process of developing as a QB? But why take it out on everyone else? We fight to prove that Josh Allen isn't an all pro franchise QB? Like, we know that. He's not there, yet. He may become one. He may not. But I think he can become as good as a Jeff Hostelter, Tent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco or Nick Foles. Maybe we want different things. I want the Buffalo Bills to win the Super Bowl once before I die. That's it. Would it be nice to have the next Tom Brady who smashes all the records and brings home 8 Super Bowls in his career. Sure. But I'd rather have a competent QB who learns to play the game good enough to win one championship (at least, two would be gravy) than a guy with big stats every year who never gets it done.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Pokebball said: What were your (or these fans) expectations for JA at this point in time? If you thought JA would be better than he is by now, I'd suggest your expectations were too high. JA is exceeding all of my expectations to date. I am very pleased with his progress so far. Comparing him, now, to Wilson and Mahomes doesn't seem reasonable to me. Given the screen name and your join date, Imma guess you're a Wyoming guy who joined this board after we drafted Allen, amirite? From the POV of a Wyoming fan, pulling for their guy to succeed in the NFL, I can see where it's looking great. He's a starting QB in the playoffs! He's shown some good, some bad, but solid improvement year 1 to year 2 and in most of the games we're in it with a chance to tie it or win it down to the final buzzer. I can see where it looks great! From the perspective of a lifelong Bills fan, knowing we could have drafted Watson or Mahomes a year before Allen, the viewpoint is a little bit different. We're pleased by his progress year 1 to year 2 (most of us), but we're also frustrated at the missed throws (a bunch of us get frustrated at the wrong missed throws, I'm talking to you @JaCrispy) and bothered by the reversion to poor technique under pressure. We love 4th quarter Josh, but we want to see him show up in the 1st quarter. 1
Solomon Grundy Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 2 hours ago, JaCrispy said: Kyler Murray and Daniel Jones are both having better rookie years than Allen’s sophomore year... And everybody knows the main reason the Bills are in the playoffs is not because of Allen... And it’s not resentment, it’s envy...I envy teams with good QB play...because at this point, we have had it very sparingly in Allen’s first two seasons... By better I assume you mean more accurate?
billsfan89 Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 No, not yet, I wouldn't call Josh Allen a top 10 QB and arguably Josh isn't a top 16 QB. But I think he can get there. Give him 2 more legit weapons to throw to and give him another off-season to work on his mistakes and get comfortable with the offensive talent around him and I think he can take that next leap.
Big Gun Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 2 hours ago, JaCrispy said: That is a fair point about playing to the defense... however I do not believe Allen is a good QB YET...for my own personal definition, I will know when he becomes a good QB because I will have confidence that he can make any throw when he needs to (the two crucial misses to Knox against the Pats was not that...a good Qb hits at least one of those) and I will have confidence that he can rise to the occasion against the better teams in the league which he has yet to do, in fact he seems to play his worst. when you have a good QB on your hands you KNOW it...although it is still possible I just am not convinced yet- I do not have that confidence the Hawks fans have with Wilson or KC fans have with Mahomes...those fans have confidence every time their team takes the field their QB is going to be better than the one across the way...So when Josh finally arrives I will feel the same way, but not yet. That's funny, you've proven in a prior thread you have no idea!
Motorin' Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 32 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: From the perspective of a lifelong Bills fan, knowing we could have drafted Watson or Mahomes a year before Allen, the viewpoint is a little bit different. We're pleased by his progress year 1 to year 2 (most of us), but we're also frustrated at the missed throws (a bunch of us get frustrated at the wrong missed throws, I'm talking to you @JaCrispy) and bothered by the reversion to poor technique under pressure. We love 4th quarter Josh, but we want to see him show up in the 1st quarter. From another lifelong Bills fan, we can play "who we should have drafted" until we shrivel up and die of resentment and self-hatred... Why does the "Is Josh Allen good enough" debate have to happen every gd week? Ah, yes, it's because of "what could have been." Daryle Lamonica... Maybe there can be one thread for "Post your Josh Allen criticisms / comparisons here." 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 51 minutes ago, Motorin' said: So basically you're not comfortable with uncertainty and aren't willing to accept that growth and development are part of the process of developing as a QB? But why take it out on everyone else? We fight to prove that Josh Allen isn't an all pro franchise QB? Like, we know that. He's not there, yet. He may become one. He may not. But I think he can become as good as a Jeff Hostelter, Tent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, Eli Manning, Joe Flacco or Nick Foles. Maybe we want different things. I want the Buffalo Bills to win the Super Bowl once before I die. That's it. Would it be nice to have the next Tom Brady who smashes all the records and brings home 8 Super Bowls in his career. Sure. But I'd rather have a competent QB who learns to play the game good enough to win one championship (at least, two would be gravy) than a guy with big stats every year who never gets it done. Yikes. Yeah, different things we want.
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