New NFL Trend - Adding QB Rushing and Passing TD’s together?

[Phil The Thrill]

16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This only makes sense and should have been done a while ago. The one thing that I’d do is add fumbles lost to INTs too. That really tells a better story. “How many scoring plays is a QB responsible for vs. turnovers?”

This would give you a much more complete picture of a QB’s performance

[C.Biscuit97]

16 hours ago, GG said:

Hyperbole is your continued twisting of the narrative when it comes to Tyrod, such as his benching  by 2 coaches in Buffalo and a very quick yank in Cleveland.   

 

His limitations as a QB were plainly evident, and that's why there was always a short hook. 

 

Just that you have to dig up the sole Miami game as evidence of the defense blowing his comeback bid, but ignoring other 1 score games where he came up woefully short is emblematic of his stature as a front running QB.   Once the defenses got tape on him, he was easy to defend.  

 

The only reason Allen gets a pass is that he was known to be a project and has been improving, while Tyrod never got better after his first year in Buffalo, and was regressing.  

 

So yeah, Allen benefits from having a great defense to back him (which I recall you never thought that McDermott could field), Tyrod had a worse time facing top defenses as well. 

If you count Tyrod getting benched for Peterman, that says more about McDemrott being completely clueless on offensive football.  It is one of the worst decisions in the history of Bills football. So mind blowing dumb and I was far from a Tyrod fan.  
 

and others have said, it should be total tds, total turnovers, and total yards.  I think why they do separate them is because running tds can be fluky.

Edited December 14, 2019 by C.Biscuit97

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

1) If it lands an astounding 20' in front of the receiver

 

I'd like to see the screen shot where the pass landed an "astounding 20' in front of the receiver" and wasn't clearly a throw away.

 

C'mon Man, be better than this.

 

Quote

2) They are why the Bills did not win the game.   Get scores........get a lead.....get the Ravens out of their gameplan.  

 

The point is, plays were left on the field that Allen has been making all season, that could also have resulted in scores and won the game.  Allen acknowledges this.  Daboll acknowledges this.  The better QB-knowledgeable analysts writing about Bills football acknowledge this (Jim Kubiak for example).

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

3) Like I said.........

 

What you said is that the 2015/2016 Bills offense was "leaps and bounds better", and this year's offense has been "garbage all year". 

Was the 2015/2016 offense better? Yes.   Was the "better" due to Tyrod's passing?  No, it's because we had a more potent rushing game.  And the difference, as I pointed out, is overall relatively small.

 

Is it anything but hyperbole to term this year's not-so-good offense "garbage"?  No.  It's a top-of-the-bottom-third offense (#20 on both points and yards) vs. a bottom-of-the-top-third (#10-12 on points, #16 or #13 on yards).  It doesn't meet the definition of "garbage" for most folks conducting sensible football discussion.  Both offenses generated "passing fluff" yards.

 

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

4.8 points less per game is a big difference........that's consistently the difference between being a top 6-7 scoring team and being in the low 20's.   The 2019 Bills are on pace for 17 turnovers thru 15 games and the 2016 Bills had just 9.    So yeah there is a BIG difference between the two offenses.    Overall yardage stats are usually full of passing fluff so not sure why you choose THAT ditch right before proclaiming what's right to defend.   The 2019 Cowboys average 20 yards more per game than the Ravens but score 8 less points per game than Baltimore.  

 

The difference is not 4.8 less ppg (entirely unsure where you got that) it's 3.4 ppg (2016) or 2.1 ppg (2015) respectively, which former would happen to be the difference between being #20 and being #10 or #14 but it would not transform us to a "top scoring offense" now as it didn't then. 

 

Right now the Bills are #8 for turnovers on offense.  In 2016, the Bills were #3 on turnovers with 12 TO, not 9.  In 2015, the Bills were #9 with 18 TO, so "on pace for 17" is right there with 2015.  (You did specify 2015/2016 not just 2016).   I guess if you want to call that "garbage" vs "leaps and bounds" you can, I don't think most people would.

 

Discussion typically requires being able and willing to acknowledge someone else's point, which I don't think you're into nor does the emoji fluff make it more entertaining.  So I'm outta here, I've said what I got.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd like to see the screen shot where the pass landed an "astounding 20' in front of the receiver" and wasn't clearly a throw away.

 

C'mon Man, be better than this.

 

 

The point is, plays were left on the field that Allen has been making all season, that could also have resulted in scores and won the game.  Allen acknowledges this.  Daboll acknowledges this.  The better QB-knowledgeable analysts writing about Bills football acknowledge this (Jim Kubiak for example).

 

 

What you said is that the 2015/2016 Bills offense was "leaps and bounds better", and this year's offense has been "garbage all year". 

Was the 2015/2016 offense better? Yes.   Was the "better" due to Tyrod's passing?  No, it's because we had a more potent rushing game.  And the difference, as I pointed out, is overall relatively small.

 

Is it anything but hyperbole to term this year's not-so-good offense "garbage"?  No.  It's a top-of-the-bottom-third offense (#20 on both points and yards) vs. a bottom-of-the-top-third (#10-12 on points, #16 or #13 on yards).  It doesn't meet the definition of "garbage" for most folks conducting sensible football discussion.  Both offenses generated "passing fluff" yards.

 

Discussion typically requires being able and willing to acknowledge someone else's point, which I don't think you're into.  So I'm outta here.

 

 

 

 

1) So you are claiming that Allen didn't overthrow a deep ball to a wide open WR by 20' this season?

 

You're wrong.

 

Start with THE FIRST ONE against the Jets and save yourself some time.✔️

 

2) As far as I'm concerned bottom 1/3 of the league sucks.    You want to count the Bills tank game in week 17 against the Jets in 2016 to diminish their rankings.   AGAIN........they were 7th in scoring.......first in rushing.........first in big plays.........and had the fewest turnovers in post merger NFL history thru 15 games.    That is most definitely a top 1/4 of the league offense.    7th in points + least turnovers is actually more like a top 5 value offense.

 

The 2019 Bills O is 22nd in DVOA against the easiest schedule(no hyperbole) I've seen them have in my 40 years following the team.     What are you going to say if they struggle against good defenses in Pittsburgh,  New England and against a resurgent Jets team and finish considerably worse statistically?  

 

 The 2016 D under Rex was also in the 20's in DVOA.........I didn't see you arguing that my harsh criticism of that group was hyperbole.    And they pitched a shutout in NE.   Having some good games doesn't mean your overall poor rating should be ignored.

[FireChans]

21 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Back when Roman and later Lynn with Roman's playbook were here and the Bills offense was trampling teams on the ground Tyrod Taylor put up 24 TD and 6 int and 23 TD and 6 int.    But we grossly underrated our own offense because we were consumed with passer efficiency and not having 300 yard games.    Now Josh Allen does similar stuff in a less effective offense(but opposite a good defense) and people want credit given where it's due.

Crazy that we didn’t realize what Tyrol had and the rest of the NFL did. That’s probably why he’s been on 3 teams in 3 years.

[BillsFan692]

It never made any sense for the Buffalo Bills to fire greg roman after we scored 31 points on Monday Night Football....  That was Rex trying to blame someone for opening up 0-2 in 2017... Roman was a great OC and had the offense thriving under Tyrod just like he has the Raven's offense thriving under Lamar. 

Tyrod didn't turn into terrible-bad until after Roman was relieved. Then we all noticed that Tyrod sucked real bad -- funny how that works=P

Biggest joke in all of football -- firing your OC after scoring 30+  and not your Defensive-Mastermind head coach who took a top 10 defense and put it in the pits.

Edited December 14, 2019 by BillsFan692

[BADOLBILZ]

26 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Crazy that we didn’t realize what Tyrol had and the rest of the NFL did. That’s probably why he’s been on 3 teams in 3 years.

 

 

Or maybe the point is that stats like Allen and Tyrod put up aren't necessarily indicators of burgeoning franchise QB play that fans should be demanding national media approval of?    

 

So many fans are fixated on that point in time where they can absolutely declare that Allen is a franchise QB that they are more than willing to take modest production and inflate the meaning of it.

 

The reality is that a guy like Matthew Stafford has been in Detroit for 10 years and still nobody really knows if he's a franchise QB because he/they don't win enough to prove anything.   It's a lot of wasted/misplaced energy worrying about where the turning point is when nothing has really been accomplished.   If it's going to happen it will happen BIG and on big stages in January/February.

    

[BADOLBILZ]

38 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

It never made any sense for the Buffalo Bills to fire greg roman after we scored 31 points on Monday Night Football....  That was Rex trying to blame someone for opening up 0-2 in 2017... Roman was a great OC and had the offense thriving under Tyrod just like he has the Raven's offense thriving under Lamar. 

Tyrod didn't turn into terrible-bad until after Roman was relieved. Then we all noticed that Tyrod sucked real bad -- funny how that works=P

Biggest joke in all of football -- firing your OC after scoring 30+  and not your Defensive-Mastermind head coach who took a top 10 defense and put it in the pits.

 

There was a lot of frustration with Roman getting plays in late............which would certainly be a hot button issue for fans and media nowadays when teams are trying to get their QB's to the line very early.     And Anthony Lynn did a tremendous job with Roman's playbook averaging 27 ppg over the last 13 meaningful games after Roman was fired.   I'm not sure that the secret here or in Baltimore is really Roman as a play caller but rather his playbook and the attention to detail in the plays designed.    It was utterly foolish getting away from that offense going into 2017.   

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 12/13/2019 at 6:12 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The problem is your unnecessary hyperbole.   Tyrod was NOT literally a RB.   Tyrod averaged 8.0 yards per pass attempt in 2015.   But then people said he could only throw deep because he was too short to see over the middle and couldn't survive with a short passing game.  So he focused on that and was efficient leading the team to the 7th most points and fewest turnovers in the NFL thru 15 games.......despite inexplicably losing his deep ball accuracy.  (Sound familiar?)   Then the narrative was that he didn't put up 300 yard games and that he didn't lead the team from behind when the Bills defense couldn't hold leads when he did.

 

Ultimately he wasn't good enough and he lost his edge playing the Bills-prescribed "not to lose" game.

 

I am a big Josh Allen fan..........but it's just funny watching him put up Tyrod-like numbers and have the same fanbase be clamoring for him to be appreciated for things they would never give Tyrod credit for.  

 

Tyrod was in his 4th or 5th season when he had is breakout year in 2015. Then he regressed some in '16 and '17. I get the similarities in overall numbers this year. But, we love Josh right now because of his immense potential. If he is still struggling as a passer in his 4th season in the NFL then we will probably sour on him pretty quickly. But for now he looks good given his inexperience in the league and expectations for growth. If 2019 is the best Allen we will ever see he won't be on the team beyond 2022

[SmokinES3]

Only for Lamar. If you do it for Allen, rushing TD's are viewed negatively or in a neutral light at best.

[Dkollidas]

16 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) So you are claiming that Allen didn't overthrow a deep ball to a wide open WR by 20' this season?

 

You're wrong.

 

Start with THE FIRST ONE against the Jets and save yourself some time.✔️

 

2) As far as I'm concerned bottom 1/3 of the league sucks.    You want to count the Bills tank game in week 17 against the Jets in 2016 to diminish their rankings.   AGAIN........they were 7th in scoring.......first in rushing.........first in big plays.........and had the fewest turnovers in post merger NFL history thru 15 games.    That is most definitely a top 1/4 of the league offense.    7th in points + least turnovers is actually more like a top 5 value offense.

 

The 2019 Bills O is 22nd in DVOA against the easiest schedule(no hyperbole) I've seen them have in my 40 years following the team.     What are you going to say if they struggle against good defenses in Pittsburgh,  New England and against a resurgent Jets team and finish considerably worse statistically?  

 

 The 2016 D under Rex was also in the 20's in DVOA.........I didn't see you arguing that my harsh criticism of that group was hyperbole.    And they pitched a shutout in NE.   Having some good games doesn't mean your overall poor rating should be ignored.

I get the points but come on bro...

 

1) If Tyrod was really so good, wouldn't he be starting somewhere? 
 

2) Quit living in the past and enjoy the fact that we’re 9-4 and have a chance to do something here.

 

3) Allen came in very raw and we knew that. I expect continued growth. Tyrod was a finished product. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

On 12/13/2019 at 8:43 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yes, they should.  Total TDs, total turnovers, and total yards.

 

It's actually a point I've been pondering because leading up to the 2018 draft, I did this whole assessment of what characteristics defined a "successful NFL QB" by which I meant one good enough for the team to win with given a good D and some pieces around him.  I came up with 4 criteria, all based on passing: completion %, YPA, TD/INT and a floor for passing yards.

 

Now we are seeing successful offenses where that floor isn't or is barely met.  I think part of the answer is when there's a strong contribution from QB rushing yards and TDs, and of course with those may come fumbles.  So it all must be taken into account.

Uhoh did it involve 300+ yards a game?!?!?!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Sherlock Holmes said:

Uhoh did it involve 300+ yards a game?!?!?!

 

Have faith in me, Son.  Absolutely not. 

 

It's about 220 ypg.  Lamar Jackson has been below it for something like 7 games and they've won every one.  He's been at it for 2 more games and they broke even.

 

 

[FireChans]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Or maybe the point is that stats like Allen and Tyrod put up aren't necessarily indicators of burgeoning franchise QB play that fans should be demanding national media approval of?    

 

So many fans are fixated on that point in time where they can absolutely declare that Allen is a franchise QB that they are more than willing to take modest production and inflate the meaning of it.

 

The reality is that a guy like Matthew Stafford has been in Detroit for 10 years and still nobody really knows if he's a franchise QB because he/they don't win enough to prove anything.   It's a lot of wasted/misplaced energy worrying about where the turning point is when nothing has really been accomplished.   If it's going to happen it will happen BIG and on big stages in January/February.

    

You could argue any and all discussion about the Bills is wasted energy. 

 

My franchise QB criteria is different than most.

 

Can he win a game on his own?

 

Can he play at a level high enough consistently to win with the right team in the playoffs?

 

Josh is a question mark to both. Tyrod was a question mark that turned into a no. Matt Stafford is easily a yes. If Josh is the next Staff, I am extremely pleased.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

 

 

My franchise QB criteria is different than most.

 

Can he win a game on his own?

 

 Matt Stafford is easily a yes.

 

 

 

In 11 seasons as a starting QB.....ELEVEN....... Matthew Stafford has a record of 69-79................. you still rolling with "Can he win a game on his own?" as 50% of your definition of a franchise QB?

 

He's a "starting" QB.   

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Dkollidas said:

I get the points but come on bro...

 

1) If Tyrod was really so good, wouldn't he be starting somewhere? 
 

2) Quit living in the past and enjoy the fact that we’re 9-4 and have a chance to do something here.

 

3) Allen came in very raw and we knew that. I expect continued growth. Tyrod was a finished product. 

 

1) Didn't say he was.........just pointing out that Allen is putting up Tyrod-like numbers and this thread is wondering why the national media isn't giving Allen love for it.

 

2) Oh I live in the moment bro..........it's OK to remember the mistakes of the past to keep perspective on the present............what's wasteful is watching the "franchise QB" pot hoping to see the exact moment that it starts to boil the way many Bills fans are doing with Allen.    He will make it or he won't.   Enjoy the journey.

 

3) I don't recall anyone saying Tyrod was a finished product when he won the starting job back in 2015.    They took a total flyer on him in UFA for like $1.75M on a one year deal and then made the Pro Bowl.    His production was to say the least a surprise.   Your memory is just awful..........but you aren't alone.?

[FireChans]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

In 11 seasons as a starting QB.....ELEVEN....... Matthew Stafford has a record of 69-79................. you still rolling with "Can he win a game on his own?" as 50% of your definition of a franchise QB?

 

He's a "starting" QB.   

Yep. I’ve watched him win games on his own.

 

I don’t expect him to win EVERY game on his own. I just expect my franchise QB’s to demonstrate that they can bail out a bad day for the rest of the team sometimes. That ability is important when you’re going up against the class of the NFL 

[unclepete]

On 12/13/2019 at 10:08 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No the best thing was having an offense lead the entire NFL in big plays AND rushing in back-to-back seasons.    The third round pick didn't even become a player it just became a sweetener in one of their famous and controversial trade ups. 

 

 

Tyrod did very well here. Statistically Tyrod still outperformed Allen. But Allen’s upside is waaaaay higher. 

[Doc]

Give Josh another 2. 

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

Give Josh another 2. 

 

 

But another interception and woeful passing numbers.   I don't care about national attention for Josh that this thread is crying out for........but statistically pitiful days like that aren't going to force critics to show love to Allen.