New NFL Trend - Adding QB Rushing and Passing TD’s together?

[DefenseWins]

In 3 years with the Bills Tyrod had a total combined passing and rushing of 10,432 Yds and 65 TD's. He had signed a contract in 2017 paying him $15million per year.

In 2 yrs with the Billls Allen has a total combined passing and rushing of 5881 Yds and 43 TD's with 3 games left to play. He is making $5.3 million per year for 2 more years.

Assuming Allen throws for another 700 Yds and rushes for another 150 Yds and accounts for say another 7 Total TD's these last 3 games, that would give Allen approximately 6731 Yds and 50 TD's over his 1st 2 NFL seasons.

 

Also during Tyrod's tenure here he had 4 comebacks and 5 Game Winning Drives during his 3 seasons here while Allen in just less than 2 seasons has already had 5 comebacks and 7 Game Winning Drives.

 

 https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylTy00.htm

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02.htm

 

Cost being a serious consideration clearly seems to show that the Bills are getting slightly more production out of Allen in his 1st 2 seasons at a cost savings of $10 million per year.

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

A lot of people served as Bills fans during his tenure and yet remember the Bills offense as anemic because Tyrod couldn't throw for 300 yards.

 

That 2015-2016 offense was leaps and bounds better than this one and the organization's best and most consistent offense since the SB years.

 

Put that Tyrod lead offense with this current Bills defense against the dogass schedule the Bills played thru 13 games and the Bills would be the #1 seed and the Ravens would have just been beaten in Buffalo this past Sunday.

 

I am a big Allen fan and he has more physical talent than Tyrod but that doesn't change the fact that this offense has been garbage for most of the season and we've unbelievably reached the point where the Bills have the QB with probably the strongest arm in the league and teams are daring him to throw the ball over the top because he's hitting hospitality tents with his awful deep throws like EJ Manuel on roids.?    This week Allen left 3 easy TD's on the field with throws because he just didn't have even NFL journeyman level touch/timing to make.  I would hope that he fixes that problem in time but just like Tyrod with his struggles I can't unsee all those missed opportunities.   

 

Bad 'Ol, you have some valid points in this thread calling folks out on their "revisionist history" about  Tyrod and the Bills offense.  Statistically, yes it was the best offense we've had since 2004.

 

But C'mon man.  An overthrow that travels on trajectory in the same direction as the WR route and goes further, is not at all the same as "hitting the hospitality tent" and the miscues we see Allen make are not the same as "EJ Manuel on roids" .  That's hyperbole so bad it makes it difficult to take your post seriously as an attempt at football discussion and the cutsie emojis don't improve its quality.  We all know that when the WR and the ball don't wind up in the same place at the same time on the football field after a deep throw, there are other things in play than the throw.  That's why deep throws are low percentage plays all over the league and short, precise passing games revolutionized offense. 

Were they overthrows that left points on the field, Yes.  Do they need to stop happening if Allen is to be "The Man", also Yes.  But they're not why we lost the game either.  We lost the game because of the makeable chain-moving throws Allen left out there whilst taking and missing deep shots.

 

As for "garbage most of the season" vs "leaps and bounds better" in 2015-2016, let's just be clear that we're talking about the difference between 23.6 or 24.9 ppg vs 21.5 ppg, and a 20 or 12 ypg difference.  That doesn't seem like a very good ditch for you to defend.

Thinking that offense with this defense beats the Ravens, flies in the face of the fact that in 2015-2016, our worst offensive productivity BY FAR, was the game against the Ravens, coached by that same Harbaugh dude.  We achieved a mighty 160 yds of offense that day and scored 7 points, even with the help of +1 in TO.  That man can just coach.

 

 

 

 

[CSBill]

9 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Not many but that Bills team had the 26th ranked defense in DVOA.    

 

Still alive for the playoffs Taylor lead the Bills to a team record offensive yardage performance and a last minute TD to take the lead against the Dolphins in Rex last game.     The Bills D promptly gave up quick big plays and a game tying FG for Miami as time expired.    Tyrod then lead the Bills to a chip shot FG in OT to win it.   Carpenter missed.   Defense promptly gave up a winning score on the next drive.   The next week TYROD got benched.

 

I'm a big Josh Allen fan but if he had the 26th ranked defense opposite him then I am afraid he could be a developmental mess at this point.   It helps to have one of the 2-3 best defenses in football across from you so that you can be driving to win a game late at home when you've only put up 10-17 points thru the first 56 minutes of the game.

 

The most painful part of all this is you had to bring up Rex. You, know, our Defensive genius coach. And he promptly fired Roman as soon as had the chance--must have made his defense look bad.  There goes my whole day at 6:30 in the morning.

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

Lamar Jackson must be setting a record for number of passing touchdowns of 10 yards or less. It's crazy. It borderline seems like they're trying to inflate his passing stats because it seems like they always have him throw it in from a yard or two out. That's why he ends up with 5 TDs on 15 attempts.

[machine gun kelly]

I agree combining TD’s is fair and it is hard to deny Lamar has had a tremendous season, Josh has had a good season, and my feelings he will continue to get better. Over time.

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Reading several articles today and some reporters are saying that Lamar Jackson has 40 TD’s And 6 INT this season so far.  I knew that this didn’t sound quite right, so I looked at they were adding his rushing TD’s to his passing TD’s.  I saw this done by a few reporters.

So considering that QB’s are scoring more TD’s on the ground, is this going to be a new thing?

 

Ironically, I’ve seen very few people credit Josh Allen with 25 TD’s and 8 INT’s. 

 

 

Shouldn't be done that way. If you're going to add a guy's running TDs to his passing TDs, you should also add his fumbles to his INTs.

 

Whole thing's nonsense, though. Passing stats and running stats should both be considered, but separately.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Max Fischer]

13 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Reading several articles today and some reporters are saying that Lamar Jackson has 40 TD’s And 6 INT this season so far.  I knew that this didn’t sound quite right, so I looked at they were adding his rushing TD’s to his passing TD’s.  I saw this done by a few reporters.

So considering that QB’s are scoring more TD’s on the ground, is this going to be a new thing?

 

Ironically, I’ve seen very few people credit Josh Allen with 25 TD’s and 8 INT’s. 

 

It just makes sense to include all passing and rushing stats, which illustrates more about the players (RB, WR and TE, too). Should also add fumbles. 

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Only in retrospect were Tyrod's limitations "plainly evident/unfixable"....the same as EVERY project QB's limitations are plainly evident, in retrospect.

 

In retrospect if Allen fails people are going to say it was "plainly evident" in 2019 that he was woefully inaccurate on deep balls, showing an astonishing lack of any touch and that he panicked under pressure abandoning the pocket for no reason and seeing ghosts like his buddy Sam Darnold instead of wide open receivers etc..

 

But he hasn't been deemed a failure yet so it's just......ya' know......."plainly happening" over and over and assumed fixable instead of "plainly evident/unfixable".

 

And btw.......Tyrod did improve in year 2..........in the same ways that Allen has...........he got better at playing a short passing, conservative game in a 2016 season where his WR corps was a mess he guided the offense to better production.

 

 

In retrospect? Please. At first Tyrod looked like a shot in the dark. Then for about seven games like it could be possible that if he kept improving and nobody found a way to defense him that he be a franchise QB. Then the Pats found that way in game eight, and he played for the last seven games of that first year the exact same way he played after that. Look back at his passer rating and his stats for those last seven games. Virtually the same as he managed for the rest of his Bills career. Seemed like there might be a possibility after that if he improved a lot, but by the fourth or fifth game of that second year everyone should have known what was obvious to people around the league, that he was fun to watch but wasn't going to be a franchise guy.

 

As for Tyrod improving in year two, he got better in an area or two but was certainly not significantly better.

 

Whereas Allen is absolutely definitely better this second year. You're right that Tyrod got better at a short-passing game in his second year. His YPA took a nose-dive from 8.0 in his first year to 6.9 in his second year and it just kept going down down down after that. Josh's on the other hand, has gone up.

 

We still don't know about Allen. It's not obvious either way, but by a few games into Tyrod's second year the odds on his ever being a franchise QB were very low indeed. But Tyrod was a vet. He understood the game well by then. Josh is a second-year guy and still has a ton to learn. And yet in Allen's first 24 games with the team he's managed five 4th quarter comebacks and seven game-wining drives, while Tyrod in his 42 games put up three 4th quarter comebacks and five game-winning drives.

 

Oh, and it's nonsense that Tyrod's "WR corps was a mess," that second year. He had Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Percy Harvin (though he only played three games) and Marquise Goodwin as well as a healthy young Charles Clay who was still looking terrific at getting open, though Tyrod couldn't find him open over the deep middle, or much of anyone else for that matter. That's not a group to rival the Chiefs or the Rams but it's certainly not a mess either.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Thurman#1

[GG]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Not really.

 

31 teams passed on Lamar Jackson.

 

Jackson was great in college.........NFL coaches whose livelihoods depended on quality QB play feared having to go out of their comfort zone to run an offense that would take advantage of the strengths of Lamar Jackson.

 

So hardly surprising that coaches passed on a lesser passing and lesser running and older QB who needs to be schemed effective.

 

If anything, this proves the point that Tyrod's history made teams wary of drafting Jackson earlier, despite better pedigree and on-field performance.   Ravens are happy with the pick now because he's proven it on the field, and there's no skittishness from their coaching staff to keep him in the line up.    Unlike Tyrod, for whom coaches couldn't wait to find a competent replacement.

 

PS, its wishful thinking that Bills would have won the Ravens game with Tyrod, because despite having more talent on offense, Tyrod managed only 6 points, while the much-maligned defense held Baltimore to 10 points in the opener.    This was after an entire offseason of Roman scheming the offense around Tyrod's "strengths"

 

PSS - Tyrod's deep ball went into the crapper at the exact moment Percy exited OBD.

Edited December 14, 2019 by GG

[Kirby Jackson]

There really is a lot of revisionist history around here. I’ve never understood why people hated Tyrod so much? He was really good for exactly what he was, a bridge starter. He won more than he lost (which is hard to do in the NFL), he never made mistakes and he made his share of plays. He also ended the longest playoff drought in pro sports. 
 

No one thought Tyrod was a franchise QB but he was absolutely as effective as guys like Dalton, Flacco, Mariota, Fitz, Keenum, etc... This is a guy that we should appreciate and not hate. He was better than anyone we had for the previous 20 years!! 
 

It was time for the Bills to try to find a franchise QB and that’s what they did. We don’t need to disparage Tyrod to pump up Allen!! I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why Bills fans need to do that? It was the same with Lamar last week. It’s okay for multiple guys to do things well. One guy doesn’t have to be bad for your guy to be better. Tyrod was an effective game manager that rarely (if ever) was the reason that his team lost. 

[Doc]

They should.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Not really.

 

31 32 teams passed on Lamar Jackson.

 

Jackson was great in college.........NFL coaches whose livelihoods depended on quality QB play feared having to go out of their comfort zone to run an offense that would take advantage of the strengths of Lamar Jackson.

 

So hardly surprising that coaches passed on a lesser passing and lesser running and older QB who needs to be schemed effective.

 

FIFY.  Ravens drafted Hurst with their 1st pick in the 1st round and traded back in to take Lamar

[GG]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

There really is a lot of revisionist history around here. I’ve never understood why people hated Tyrod so much? He was really good for exactly what he was, a bridge starter. He won more than he lost (which is hard to do in the NFL), he never made mistakes and he made his share of plays. He also ended the longest playoff drought in pro sports. 
 

No one thought Tyrod was a franchise QB but he was absolutely as effective as guys like Dalton, Flacco, Mariota, Fitz, Keenum, etc... This is a guy that we should appreciate and not hate. He was better than anyone we had for the previous 20 years!! 
 

It was time for the Bills to try to find a franchise QB and that’s what they did. We don’t need to disparage Tyrod to pump up Allen!! I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why Bills fans need to do that? It was the same with Lamar last week. It’s okay for multiple guys to do things well. One guy doesn’t have to be bad for your guy to be better. Tyrod was an effective game manager that rarely (if ever) was the reason that his team lost. 

 

I see the discussion as being between those who recognize Tyrod's role as a bridge starter and someone who clings to the fantasy of him being a franchise QB.

[Scott7975]

I don't know why it hasn't always been a trend.  A TD is a TD is a TD.  I've been saying this since Tyrod was our QB.

[ogham26]

15 hours ago, theAteam said:

I think they should be included but I feel you'll have to include fumbles (or at least fumbles lost).

 

 

yep they should go by total tds and total turnovers.  they all count the same

[BADOLBILZ]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Bad 'Ol, you have some valid points in this thread calling folks out on their "revisionist history" about  Tyrod and the Bills offense.  Statistically, yes it was the best offense we've had since 2004.

 

But C'mon man.  An overthrow that travels on trajectory in the same direction as the WR route and goes further, is not at all the same as "hitting the hospitality tent" and the miscues we see Allen make are not the same as "EJ Manuel on roids" .  That's hyperbole so bad it makes it difficult to take your post seriously as an attempt at football discussion and the cutsie emojis don't improve its quality.  We all know that when the WR and the ball don't wind up in the same place at the same time on the football field after a deep throw, there are other things in play than the throw.  That's why deep throws are low percentage plays all over the league and short, precise passing games revolutionized offense. 

Were they overthrows that left points on the field, Yes.  Do they need to stop happening if Allen is to be "The Man", also Yes.  But they're not why we lost the game either.  We lost the game because of the makeable chain-moving throws Allen left out there whilst taking and missing deep shots.

 

As for "garbage most of the season" vs "leaps and bounds better" in 2015-2016, let's just be clear that we're talking about the difference between 23.6 or 24.9 ppg vs 21.5 ppg, and a 20 or 12 ypg difference.  That doesn't seem like a very good ditch for you to defend.

Thinking that offense with this defense beats the Ravens, flies in the face of the fact that in 2015-2016, our worst offensive productivity BY FAR, was the game against the Ravens, coached by that same Harbaugh dude.  We achieved a mighty 160 yds of offense that day and scored 7 points, even with the help of +1 in TO.  That man can just coach.

 

 

 

 

 

1) If it lands an astounding 20' in front of the receiver how is that better than landing 10' from the receiver out of bounds like several of EJ Manuel's deep passes?   It's the same problem either way.  Most defenses are loathe to allow a deep ball opportunity over the top.   There is a reason for that.   Yes that one throw is a lower % chance of completion than a short-to-intermediate pass.........but making a team go 12 plays to get a score is the much better % play for defenses than letting a WR get behind the defense with no safety help.    

 

2) They are why the Bills did not win the game.   Get scores........get a lead.....get the Ravens out of their gameplan.    See KC and Cleveland versus Baltimore.   By missing wide open opportunities they allowed the Ravens to dictate the terms of the game and then your "wouldn't have lost if" throws that weren't completed became a bigger factor.  

 

3) Like I said.........the 2016 Bills lead the NFL in big plays AND rushing AND had the fewest turnovers in 2016.  Thru 15 games they averaged 25.9 points(7th in the NFL) and had the fewest turnovers by any NFL team ever thru 15 games since the AFL/NFL merger.   This 2019 Bills offense is 20th in scoring and turns the ball over more.   4.8 points less per game is a big difference........that's consistently the difference between being a top 6-7 scoring team and being in the low 20's.   The 2019 Bills are on pace for 17 turnovers thru 15 games and the 2016 Bills had just 9.    So yeah there is a BIG difference between the two offenses.    Overall yardage stats are usually full of passing fluff so not sure why you choose THAT ditch right before proclaiming what's right to defend.   The 2019 Cowboys average 20 yards more per game than the Ravens but score 8 less points per game than Baltimore.  

[dave mcbride]

13 hours ago, GG said:

 Tyrod’s limitations were plainly evident at the time, as are Allen’s limitations are plainly evident at this time.   No need for hindsight analysis.

 

You’re revising history by saying that Tyrod’s game got better.  Must be nice to ignore the start of the ‘16 season, where both opponents clearly said that their game plan was to have Tyrod play like a quarterback, and he failed.  The blueprint was there for any team willing to make him a QB.   Tyrod’s farewell was sealed with a pathetic 3 point outing in the biggest game in 20 years.  That’s why he barely lasted 4 games in Cleveland.

 

If your point is that Allen gets the benefit of the doubt, while Tyrod didn’t, it’s because we’re talking about a guy who was in his 8th year, not a project in his second.  Let’s see the support that Allen gets if he still can’t beat a blitzing defense by mid next year.

 

The Bills’ offense was objectively good in 2016.

[BADOLBILZ]

31 minutes ago, GG said:

 

I see the discussion as being between those who recognize Tyrod's role as a bridge starter and someone who clings to the fantasy of him being a franchise QB.

 

Have you heard the term "straw man"?    You literally are just making something up to argue about.

[Jerome007]

16 hours ago, theAteam said:

I think they should be included but I feel you'll have to include fumbles (or at least fumbles lost).

Exactly. Then it's all good

 

Who wouldn't take a Peyton or (gulp) Brady or Brees? Pocket passers can still and will still be a force. But Lamar and Josh need their own form of stats too. A TD is a TD!

[GG]

22 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Have you heard the term "straw man"?    You literally are just making something up to argue about.

 

If it's a strawman argument, I'm not the one making it. 

 

The arguments opposite your position is out Tyrod's flaws and his benching by 3 different coaches whose jobs were on the line.   You keep falling back to the offense looking great when he led it and continuing your crusade that Bills made a mistake in getting rid of him.

 

Which one of those positions is closer to a strawman argument?  Who's the one directly comparing a 2nd year project QB to a 6 yr vet.   Which QB made tangible steps to improve his game in 1 offseason?  Which one plateaued?  

 

You continue to twist history to back your favorite positions.

 

Tell us again how McDermott's defense would never be a top 5 unit based on his Carolina and Philly histories.   Tell us about the tragic mistakes Bills made in letting Mike Gillislee go?   Tyrod falls in the same camp.  He was an above average QB, who clearly hit his peak and every coaching staff knew it, and that's why it was imperative to immediately find a replacement.   It's still an open question whether Allen is that guy.  But that's a totally separate issue from keeping Tyrod or letting him go .