What Do We Do Now About Our Government?

[DC Tom]

21 minutes ago, Nanker said:

Relocate the headquarters of all the major federal agencies into widely distributed  locations across the country. There’s far too much concentration of power and (government) wealth in the District and its environs.  
 

It would take decades to do this, and very likely over time create regional tensions, however it might give the republic a bit more time. 

 

It's not nearly as concentrated as you think.  Even though where I work is headquartered in DC, most of the political power is distributed among a dozen different field offices.

 

In fact, the real problem is something of the opposite: the federal government's power is too distributed.  Not geographically, but administratively through the CFR.  That's the real "Deep State;" the SES and GS-14s+ who wield that regulatory power.

 

[John Adams]

40 minutes ago, KRC said:

 

Good post. I am going to focus on one of your points above. I absolutely agree. It should not be easy to spy on Americans. I know there is a downside in preventing mass shootings/terrorist attacks/etc. However, you should not be able to spy on American citizens without jumping through a crap-load of hoops. It needs to be far more difficult that it appears to be currently.

 

And that's just FISA. 

 

But there's always a trade between our freedoms and the ability of bad actors to use them against us. See Russia and our freedom of the press (not picking that as a hot button issue but we know it's real). See crazy people and our right to bear arms. And many more. 

 

Freedom is better than the alternative but freedom is not free of pain. 

[Tiberius]

26 minutes ago, westside2 said:

Burn DC to the ground and cover with salt.

 

Honestly, give power back to the states, back to the people. Term limits, no lifetime political jobs. Prosecute to fullest extent of the law anyone breaking it for personal gain. Get rid of lobbyists and big corporations in DC. Make every penny collected in taxes transparent. No more handing over billions to foreign countries just so it can be grafted back to politicians family's and friends.

This! 

[Foxx]

3 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

It's not nearly as concentrated as you think.  Even though where I work is headquartered in DC, most of the political power is distributed among a dozen different field offices.

 

In fact, the real problem is something of the opposite: the federal government's power is too distributed.  Not geographically, but administratively through the CFR.  That's the real "Deep State;" the SES and GS-14s+ who wield that regulatory power.

 

i've a feeling that the CFR is going to see some hard times in the days ahead.

[John Adams]

41 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

Seriously, though...I think the government's beyond fixing.  Either accept that we're going to be living in some sort of oligarchic aristocracy for the foreseeable future (at best - at worst, a dystopian Robespierrian fascist Republic with West Virginia playing the part of the Vendee), or take up arms against it.  But we're well into a generational trend away from republican democracy that's not likely to reverse itself, given that we have a full generation now that's grown up accepting that trend as normal.

 

Of our very few generations in this experiment, there have always been governments broken beyond fixing, especially when you think of how corrupt our government and election processes have been. We can and should be diligent fixing the things we can. 

 

Adding to my original list. 

 

X. Encourage Congress and Executives to stay in their lanes, especially encouraging Congress to push the Executive back into its, regardless of party. Via activism and voting. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

Of our very few generations in this experiment, there have always been governments broken beyond fixing, especially when you think of how corrupt our government and election processes have been. We can and should be diligent fixing the things we can. 

 

Adding to my original list. 

 

X. Encourage Congress and Executives to stay in their lanes, especially the Congress to push the Executive back into its, regardless of party. Via activism and voting. 

  And with that statement the intellectual dishonesty rises to the surface as to the purpose of this thread.  Just trying to lead the ignorant masses into "Trump did something wrong and we need to make the fools in the USA see it" are we JA?

[John Adams]

2 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  And with that statement the intellectual dishonesty rises to the surface as to the purpose of this thread.  Just trying to lead the ignorant masses into "Trump did something wrong and we need to make the fools in the USA see it" are we JA?

 

Thanks for introducing your own bias into this. 

 

No. 

 

Obama and Bush were far guiltier of executive overreach than Trump. It's a branch of government issue, mostly stemming from Congress's failure to do its job in legislating and pushing back on the Executive. 

 

So please try to keep this productive.

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[Koko78]

2 hours ago, KRC said:

 

 

Without blaming a political party or any specific politician, how do we fix the systemic issues that have put us in the situation we are in right now?

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Koko78

[Bob in Mich]

I would say we need to get back to valuing honesty in our politicians.  Today, we back our politicians' comments not based on validity or truth, but based on D's or R's.  If we think of them as on our team, we excuse even the most blatant lies if it gets a political win.  This has led to our deep national divide and needs to change if that divide is to close.

 

The tricky part is that it will take condemnation of our own D or R to bring about this change.  Schiff will not change to please R's nor will Trump change to please the D's.  Having separate truths is at the root of many of our nation's troubles. 

 

Stop allowing false realities.  Push for the truth yourself.  Be honest yourself.  Avoid untruths in political discussions just to win points.  Get back to condemning dishonesty when apparent in your own politicians and if they persist, replace them.  

[RochesterRob]

Just now, John Adams said:

 

Thanks for introducing your own bias into this. 

 

No. 

 

Obama and Bush were far guiltier of executive overreach than Trump. 

  Then for the purpose of making your thread more universal the subjects of Bush, Obama, and whoever else should have been broached in your last statement.  It's never wise to leave things open to interpretation if there is a specific message that you are trying to get out.  

[RochesterRob]

5 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

  In all seriousness the death penalty should be an option and not the painless kind.  The gallows and the chair should be available for use in execution.  What is absolutely imperative is not to turn it into a public spectacle such as it was in revolutionary France.  Execute the convicted party in  front of a small group of witnesses and then make the announcement to the media that the sentence is now fulfilled.  Public executions would only breed blood lust which invites abuses of the system.

[John Adams]

11 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  Then for the purpose of making your thread more universal the subjects of Bush, Obama, and whoever else should have been broached in your last statement.  It's never wise to leave things open to interpretation if there is a specific message that you are trying to get out.  

 

Like where I said "regardless of party" and mentioned no Congress or Executive by number or name?

Edited December 12, 2019 by John Adams

[KRC]

17 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Or, as a fun alternative:

 

 

I am a gun guy. I prefer the firing squad.

 

 

31 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

And that's just FISA. 

 

But there's always a trade between our freedoms and the ability of bad actors to use them against us. See Russia and our freedom of the press (not picking that as a hot button issue but we know it's real). See crazy people and our right to bear arms. And many more. 

 

Freedom is better than the alternative but freedom is not free of pain. 

 

I completely agree. Freedom is not free of pain. It is better than the alternative.

 

 

19 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

It's a branch of government issue, mostly stemming from Congress's failure to do its job in legislating and pushing back on the Executive. 

 

I agree again. The legislative branch has spent too much time abdicating their responsibilities to the executive and judicial branches. The executive has too quickly overreached because the legislative branch has failed to do their jobs and they want to get their agenda through. Get proper checks and balances in place and do your damn job.

Edited December 12, 2019 by KRC

[RochesterRob]

17 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

Like where I said "regardless of party" and mentioned no Congress or Executive by number or name?

  Examples let people know where you stand and is the major reason that they are used to expand upon general concepts.  No harm in examples and in this case examples from both sides of the aisle create an air of impartiality. If you have taken any college level writing courses and made statements as you did the grader of your paper might write in the margins of your work "examples?" or "expand on your thoughts" or some similar statement.

Edited December 12, 2019 by RochesterRob

[Tiberius]

The Russians hacked into voting systems, machines and infrastructure, that can't be allowed to continue. If anyone thinks having the Russians weigh in on elections will make us better, I have a Trump Tower to sell you 

[Koko78]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  In all seriousness the death penalty should be an option and not the painless kind.  The gallows and the chair should be available for use in execution.  What is absolutely imperative is not to turn it into a public spectacle such as it was in revolutionary France.  Execute the convicted party in  front of a small group of witnesses and then make the announcement to the media that the sentence is now fulfilled.  Public executions would only breed blood lust which invites abuses of the system.

 

Public? No.

 

For example, if I were charged with using any means to end corruption at a particular bureaucratic institution (and, you know, disregarded my conscience/soul), I would likely call all employees into a meeting. At that meeting, I would call up selected people (in various capacities/ranks), that I had fairly solid evidence of corruption on. I would present that evidence to the crowd, and summarily execute them in front of the rest, hopefully splattering some gore on as many people as possible. I would then inform those assembled that this is the price they, and their families, would pay for further corrupt acts, before having them file out of the room, one at a time, past the dead bodies.

 

You can't change a bureaucratic/political culture with a few firings and rule changes, especially when it is damn near impossible to fire anyone.

 

Obviously the above example is horrible and over-the-top.

 

 

[RochesterRob]

2 minutes ago, Koko78 said:

 

Public? No.

 

For example, if I were charged with using any means to end corruption at a particular bureaucratic institution (and, you know, disregarded my conscience/soul), I would likely call all employees into a meeting. At that meeting, I would call up selected people (in various capacities/ranks), that I had fairly solid evidence of corruption on. I would present that evidence to the crowd, and summarily execute them in front of the rest, hopefully splattering some gore on as many people as possible. I would then inform those assembled that this is the price they, and their families, would pay for further corrupt acts, before having them file out of the room, one at a time, past the dead bodies.

 

You can't change a bureaucratic/political culture with a few firings and rule changes, especially when it is damn near impossible to fire anyone.

 

Obviously the above example is horrible and over-the-top.

 

 

  This is where we are at now in terms of your statement about firings being useless deterrents.  It's almost like for some an early retirement.  

 

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

The Russians hacked into voting systems, machines and infrastructure, that can't be allowed to continue. If anyone thinks having the Russians weigh in on elections will make us better, I have a Trump Tower to sell you 

  Your man Obama assured us prior to the 2016 election that literally altering votes at the town halls was impossible.  Are you saying that he is a mere mortal subject to poor judgement like the rest of us?  As to your last sentence that is projection by you plain and simple.  Let us all assume the fetal position in recognition of Obama being wrong.

[Tiberius]

10 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  This is where we are at now in terms of your statement about firings being useless deterrents.  It's almost like for some an early retirement.  

 

  Your man Obama assured us prior to the 2016 election that literally altering votes at the town halls was impossible.  Are you saying that he is a mere mortal subject to poor judgement like the rest of us?  As to your last sentence that is projection by you plain and simple.  Let us all assume the fetal position in recognition of Obama being wrong.

Yes, Obama is mortal. 

[Nanker]

49 minutes ago, Foxx said:

i've a feeling that the CFR is going to see some hard times in the days ahead.

There should be a thorough combing through them wrt penalties for some of the shenanigans that this FISA Scandal foisted upon our country. 

[RochesterRob]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Yes, Obama is mortal. 

  I know that it pained you greatly to make that statement.  Have a cookie.