Revisiting my Allen scouting report

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, MJS said:

I disagree with your definitions.

You can and everybody has different definitions but when scouts talk about throwers vs passers that is what they mean

 

Every scout I have ever talked to classifies Allen as a thrower which isn't a bad thing in the long run

 

He can throw a football better than most alive

[ILBillsfan]

40 minutes ago, Lfod said:

I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

TE left to block the LB is a bad match up the LB wins 99.9% of the time it's the same with a TE vs DE I still do not get why teams do this.  It was also a backside (blind) hit on him and that will happen at times so I'm not going to dog on him too bad 

[par73]

40 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I don't think I'm fool proof but I've spent my whole life as a player, scout and coach  and football really is my life and passion

 

I think Allen is great and I'm so excited about the future and he just needed room to grow correctly

I watched a montage of his misses after the game, and noticed the same thing about his mechanics. On those deep balls, he just uses his upper body and flicks the ball. I have to assume the coaches are working with him on that.

[whatdrought]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

To your point.....elsewhere I posted a screen capture of Josh's deep completion to John Brown in the Miami game.  Guess what, you see a fairly textbook passing motion.

In contrast, the three unsuccessful deep throws at the start of the Ravens game were exactly as you describe - although to be fair to Josh, if he'd have stepped into his throw I think he would have brought the ball within reach of a rusher's arm and/or had Spain pushed into his leg in two of them.  In the third, he was throwing on the run without time to reset.

 

I think he gets it when he has time and space....it just isn't engrained enough to work under pressure yet.

 

 

I was thinking about this very thing earlier while watching some various highlights... why don’t we do play action boots with Brown or Foster streaking the other way to get josh out of the mire and set propels for one of these shots? All of his deep passes come when he’s in the pocket and he rarely has room to step into his throw and plant his feet.

 

 

It’s hard not to look at Josh’s body of work and be encouraged with how much he has improved and grown, while considering that he can continue to do so. Another offseason with Jordan Palmer and he might be killing the deep shots.

Edited December 12, 2019 by whatdrought

[Buffalo716]

@MJS

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2018jallen.php

"They also thought my analogy of him being like a young pitcher called up to the big leagues who is more of a hard thrower than a pitcher was accurate"

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-allen?id=3219414c-4c52-9264-bedc-c4ddaf201fe7

 

"Fastball pitcher whose touch could use improvement short"

 

"Would benefit by trading some velocity for better timing"

 

While none of these explicitly state he's a thrower vs passer , hard thrower vs pitcher is brought up which is exactly how I described it...also fastball pitcher who could use touch...  this is exactly what I stated that they are referencing

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

No not at all. I think he's improved 10 fold and I'm super excited about his progress

 

My point was how he still is a better thrower than passer right now and that's ok. He has a cannon that he hasn't fully reigned in yet and the difference is key

 

Throwers throw strikes, frozen ropes majority

 

Passers have innate touch 

 

Both can be effective and both play the game differently. And both can work on weaknesses

 

Allens deep trajectory is off because he is a thrower 

 

 

If those are your definitions, he's neither. Half and half, maybe.

 

He started out more of a thrower, but certainly not mostly "thowing strikes," out of college. He was off-target far more than usual. In terms of velocity, yeah, he's got the capabilities of steaming it in on any play. Now he's significantly improved his accuracy, and we do see plenty of  short to mid-range balls that aren't frozen ropes. He's changed, become less of a frozen rope thrower and throws more strikes. He's getting touch. But yeah, he still needs to work on mechanics, poise, reading defenses and basically an awful lot of stuff, some of which comes from bad habits or knowledge voids, but an awful lot of which is simply stuff that second-year guys have to learn

 

And plenty of throwers gain enough touch that they're essentially passers a few years in. As someone mentioned above, Elway's a great example of that.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Buffalo716]

8 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

If those are your definitions, he's neither. Half and half, maybe.

 

He started out more of a thrower, but certainly not "mostly strikes." He was off-target far more than usual. Now he's significantly improved his accuracy, and we do see plenty of  short to mid-range balls that aren't frozen ropes. He's changed, become less of a frozen rope thrower and throws more strikes. He's getting touch. But yeah, he still needs to work on mechanics, poise, reading defenses and basically an awful lot of stuff, some of which comes from bad habits or knowledge voids, but an awful lot of which is simply stuff that second-year guys have to learn

 

And plenty of throwers gain enough touch that they're essentially passers a few years in. As someone mentioned above, Elway's a great example of that.

That was me and I never said Allen couldn't or hasn't improved

 

He has marketably 

 

Where he is still more of a thrower than a passer is in the deep game where he still tries throwing darts instead of using touch and that was my premise 

 

And the "throwing strikes" part was more akin to how he throws the ball... On a line , rather than anything to do with ball placement or accuracy

 

He is learning touch on shorter throws but still can grow alot. He still prefers a fastball but can change speeds a bit more , and that's fine , I like a heater at 10-15 yards

Edited December 12, 2019 by Buffalo716

[MJS]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

@MJS

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2018jallen.php

"They also thought my analogy of him being like a young pitcher called up to the big leagues who is more of a hard thrower than a pitcher was accurate"

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/josh-allen?id=3219414c-4c52-9264-bedc-c4ddaf201fe7

 

"Fastball pitcher whose touch could use improvement short"

 

"Would benefit by trading some velocity for better timing"

 

While none of these explicitly state thrower vs passer this is exactly what they are referencing that I stated

 

I agree with the quoted material and your overall premise about Allen needing to learn to put more touch on the ball. I just don't agree that it makes him a "thrower of the football" instead of a passer. I've never heard of lack of touch being used like that before.

 

To me, someone who is just a thrower of the football is someone who is not naturally gifted as a passer. Their "arm talent" isn't high. Having a strong arm and lack of touch, in my opinion, does not put you in that category. I think Josh has a ton of arm talent and is a natural thrower, he just needs to clean up his mechanics and make better decisions. But that's fine, we can disagree.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

 

I agree with the quoted material and your overall premise about Allen needing to learn to put more touch on the ball. I just don't agree that it makes him a "thrower of the football" instead of a passer. I've never heard of lack of touch being used like that before.

 

To me, someone who is just a thrower of the football is someone who is not naturally gifted as a passer. Their "arm talent" isn't high. Having a strong arm and lack of touch, in my opinion, does not put you in that category. I think Josh has a ton of arm talent and is a natural thrower, he just needs to clean up his mechanics and make better decisions. But that's fine, we can disagree.

And growing up in the game I would think the opposite. Most throwers are highly gifted and have big arm talent..  ala Jay Cutler who had a phenomenal arm but no heart and some other problems..  and like I said young John Elway who was known for the"Elway cross"

 

Tim tebow isn't a thrower or a passer , he's a FB playing QB.

 

You even said he's a "natural thrower" and he is... Chad Pennington was a natural passer and he was extremely limited but efficient

 

Scout's like using the analogy of a baseball pitchers style for a QB which is why I compared him to a flamethrower... and why those scouts used those analogies as well... Some are flamethrowers and some are finesse pitchers... Flamethrowers are known for throwing , finesse pitchers for pitching... 

 

Obviously the great QBs have a mixture of the flamethrowing and finesse passing which is where everybody wants to be

 

And realistically Josh falls into the flameTHROWER category right now and again it's not even a negative, it's a style 

 

That's the key , a style of play. It has nothing to do with accuracy or precision, it's how he likes to throw the football

 

But everybody uses different words and lingo and I can only go by what I have known and been taught my whole life..  it's certainly not a negative and I wouldn't change Josh's talent at all. He has arm talent that is out the ying yang which is why he makes throws you never see by other QBs

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Buffalo716

[US Egg]

Allen has one more season to show his mettle.

 

The Bills should draft a QB this spring early on.

 

[Billsfan1972]

Actually the issue as usual is when we have a bad performance, the knives are out.  I on the other hand will blame Daboll and bad play calling & what I think has been slow development based on passing stats that have the Bills in the bottom half of the league in terms of passing in general.

 

Take the first few drives vs. Baltimore in a stiff wind (at your back).  This is when you work the controlled passing game & move the chains & of course they come out telegraph a run (1 yard), another obvious run for 5 & then a missed deep ball (where the wind will affect the throw).  Get a few first downs!!!

 

He has been very good over the middle & mid range passes and can can throw it on a line.  

 

Everyone seems obsessed with the long ball, but few talk about Beasley dropping a beauty & that pass to Knox that was like velcro caught in stride right in his hand.

 

Get into a flow, which Daboll did not do, receivers often not open and ridiculous pressure all game.

 

And can this team execute a decent screen????

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually the issue as usual is when we have a bad performance, the knives are out.  I on the other hand will blame Daboll and bad play calling & what I think has been slow development based on passing stats that have the Bills in the bottom half of the league in terms of passing in general.

 

Take the first few drives vs. Baltimore in a stiff wind (at your back).  This is when you work the controlled passing game & move the chains & of course they come out telegraph a run (1 yard), another obvious run for 5 & then a missed deep ball (where the wind will affect the throw).  Get a few first downs!!!

 

He has been very good over the middle & mid range passes and can can throw it on a line.  

 

Everyone seems obsessed with the long ball, but few talk about Beasley dropping a beauty & that pass to Knox that was like velcro caught in stride right in his hand.

 

Get into a flow, which Daboll did not do, receivers often not open and ridiculous pressure all game.

 

And can this team execute a decent screen????

 

I honestly have not been and am not worried about his deep ball and how it projects.. all QBs have different learning curves and Josh is no different

 

And I agree Daboll is madly inconsistent and never gets Josh into a rhythm

[Meatloaf63]

10 hours ago, Lfod said:

I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

You May want to speak to Knox about that...

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

I don't know about the passer v. thrower thing.  In his podcast, Beasley dives into how early on Josh would just fire the ball in.  However, as time has gone on, Josh has figured out how to take something off the ball and to throw more catch-able balls.  I think that has shown through this year, as he has hit a couple wheel routes and other throws that require some ark or a soft touch. 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I don't know about the passer v. thrower thing.  In his podcast, Beasley dives into how early on Josh would just fire the ball in.  However, as time has gone on, Josh has figured out how to take something off the ball and to throw more catch-able balls.  I think that has shown through this year, as he has hit a couple wheel routes and other throws that require some ark or a soft touch. 

Josh is a professional, of course he is gonna work on his craft

 

I never said he hasn't improved tremendously or that he hasn't learned some touch on shorter throws...

 

This was about why his long balls are a tad off thats all

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Josh is a professional, of course he is gonna work on his craft

 

I never said he hasn't improved tremendously or that he hasn't learned some touch on shorter throws...

 

This was about why his long balls are a tad off thats all

 

 

 

Oh, I read your OP as discussing two issues: long ball and touch on passes.  I didn't realize one was in the context of the other. 

[Buffalo Junction]

12 hours ago, Mango said:

 

Imagine if all of Allen’s issues were fixed with contact lenses. ???

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Oh, I read your OP as discussing two issues: long ball and touch on passes.  I didn't realize one was in the context of the other. 

Yes going back to Wyoming I have noticed that he usually has bad lower body mechanics on long balls... Couple that with the fact that he likes to throw frozen ropes downfield because he hasn't mastered his innate touch yet and that is why his deep ball has been off

 

But he is 23 and has tons of time to find his stride, he has already exceeded my expectations of when we drafted him

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Lfod said:

I decided to not say anything on the forums about Josh after the Ravens game. I know it is just one game but the result left me feeling a bit negative about him. That fumble was costly. 

 

That fumble was NOT on Josh.  Blindside hit, 9.5 out of 10 QB fumble.  There is plenty to blame Josh for in the game (I have posted some on this elsewhere) but this play series isn't part of it.

 

If you have the Athletic, read Turner's excellent article on how Martindale dissected our O-line.  Turner does a pretty good job, as far as I can tell, on explaining what went wrong with the pass protection on that play. 

 

Basically, Martindale gave Josh a look to which the correct response was to slide protections right.  They slid right.  Knox was in high likelihood supposed to have Singletary helping him with Judon.  Instead, one of the rushers (not sure who - DE?) stunted to the L, and Singletary correctly came across to pick him up, but that leaves Knox 1:1 with Judon.   Of note is that Ford was also beaten like a drum on that play, which Cover1 doesn't point out, but in fact if Judon doesn't get there, Bowser would have.  The difference of course is that Allen could have seen him coming and would have had a prayer to cover up the ball.

 

I really don't like that play design where Allen is having so much trouble with pressure AND has already missed several deep balls.  Beasley was supposed to be the hot option on this play, but he was held (uncalled) and unavailable.   We're in 11, Singletary and Knox stayed home to block, while McKittrick (I think) and Brown go deep on routes that need time to develop.   There were other plays where Allen did have quick options available but this wasn't one of them.  I think a more experienced QB might have chucked the ball in the dirt or OOB (takes a gun, but Allen has a gun) in the direction of Beasley and hoped to draw the ref's attention to the hold, BUT, that would have its own dangers against a truly athletic front 7 like Baltimore's.    Perhaps someone else can comment.  It was 3rd and 8. 

 

While Daboll is incorrectly taking undeserved heat for not leaving Josh options that were actually there on many plays, this was one series where I truly disliked the play calling. 

 

First down was Gore up the middle for 2 yds.    What's the Point?  Singletary just had a rest while Baltimore had the ball. 

 

Second and 8 was a fake Jet Sweep (to BEASLEY!)/Fake Handoff to Gore with Foster(I think) and Brown both downfield (both being held I believe).  Beasley is quick and able to make sharp cuts and juke guys, but he's not blindingly fast like Foster or McKittrick.  I think the idea was a secondary route concept to Beasley, but it's (IMO) just a strange design and call for the situation.  First, it's one of those Dabollisms I hate - "I know, we'll do something they'll never expect like use personnel who aren't the best choices to run this type of play!  That'll trick 'em!"  Second, by nature a fake reverse/fake handoff design is "eye candy" designed to get Baltimore's D to hesitate and diagnose.  The Baltimore D at that point was not concerned about little details like diagnosing the play.  They were revving their engines.  They figure they'll all get in the backfield fast then slam the hell out of whoever turns out to have the ball.  Allen makes a dangerous but decent throw to Bease as he's being hit (you can see how completely Allen trusts Beasley, but I'm not sure Beasley has his head turned quickly), well-defensed and knocked away by a leaping Humphrey.

 

Not at all a fan of Daboll's play calls on that series.  If nothing else, we were subbing personnel - we subbed Singletary for Gore that down.  Why not sub in Kroft or Smith for Knox?  Knox is game and developing decently, but Smith > Kroft >>> Knox as blockers.   Daboll designs really good plays sometimes, then other times when I watch the all-22 (my eyes aren't fast enough to see all that on broadcast) I'm yelling at the monitor.  He's just too freakin' cute sometimes, both in personnel choice and in design and he just can't seem to adjust fast enough to what the "Jimmies and Joes" are actually able to execute.

 

If anyone has a reasoned contrary view about what the play design on this series is supposed to accomplish and why it was a good choice, please let me know.

 

Allen would have been sacked something like 18 times if he weren't 1) so freakin' athletic and able to escape 2) pulling the trigger on throws like that 2nd down.

 

 

 

49 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Josh is a professional, of course he is gonna work on his craft

I never said he hasn't improved tremendously or that he hasn't learned some touch on shorter throws...

This was about why his long balls are a tad off thats all

 

And again to your point - if you can go back and look at the several long throws Allen *has* successfully completed I think you'll agree 1) he had time and space to set up properly on those throws 2) he appears (to me anyway) to be using proper passing technique with his lower body and follow-through, or at least closer to it.

[Dr. Who]

6 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

Allen has one more season to show his mettle.

 

The Bills should draft a QB this spring early on.

 

Bad egg.