Antonio Posted December 11, 2019 Author Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I think you are having trouble comprehending the OP. This is what he said: When running deep patterns I want them (the WR) to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter(n). This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you. The OP is suggesting that the WR follow a straight line in their routes, not that they round them off. Thanks LOL exactly right!
BringBackFlutie Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said: Yes, it seems I see wide open receivers deep every non-Bills game I watch. They usually slow up for the ball. But Josh apparently needs to hit them perfectly in stride for some reason. Is this a scheme issue? That's what I'm saying! A lot of wide open guys all over the place, and their QBs just putting it in the area, and the receiver adjusting to it. Seems like most of our plays, if the ball isn't placed perfectly, the receiver's not catching it, because there's not a whole lot of separation. In some cases, the separation is happening at the end of the route, and Josh is overthrowing the WR, instead of overthrowing the coverage. On other plays, there ARE those wide open guys, and Josh is still throwing like they're going to break downfield and still catch it in perfect stride. It seems like both a scheme and QB/WR communication issue. There are so many elements to this, and I don't think it's just "Josh needs to learn how to loft the ball to hit the receivers in stride." They need to make a concerted effort to get WRs downfield in single coverage and work on the nuances of timing, depth of release, touch, when to overthrow coverage (NOT THE WR) vs throw to an area. 1
Antonio Posted December 11, 2019 Author Posted December 11, 2019 28 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: I like Josh but the deep ball issue is entirely on him. He is not throwing a catchable ball. There is not enough arc. Brown ran a perfect route across the field and heading to the pylon. He was open by two steps. That's an easy throw and needs to be a TD. The Foster throw was closer and more difficult but still could have been better. This is all on Josh. Last year he threw the 50/50 ball several times. This year he has not put the ball in play. It's fine from a turnover standpoint. But the NFL is about taking advantage of matchups and mistakes. He needs to capitalize on those few moments a game. He has shown great improvement on interception rate the last 8 weeks(still needs work on fumbles), now he just needs to be a little more opportunistic. I agree the first one to Brown is 100% on Josh, that was an easy throw. But what happens when de wind moves the ball? If you are cutting to flat you wont be able to adjust.
Mrbojanglezs Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 Allen's arm is just too strong. He is amazing on throws that call for "on a rope" throws but is not good on anything that requires arc. When he only needs 50% of his arm strength to throw a 30 yard pass and he needs to control trajectory its difficult for him. He needs to work on it A LOT in the off season. He needs to train himself to play the entire game at 50-70% arm strength all the time and ONLY throw it hard when he has a straight line rope shot. 2
2003Contenders Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said: The problem is not the wrs. They're getting open. You answered your own question. ARC & TOUCH. I've been screaming this all season and apparently Dorsey and Daboll either aren't teaching Josh this or he's stubborn? It's an easy fix..... Dan Fouts talked about this in both Bills games that he called this season, including Sunday's game against the Ravens. While he pointed out that the main issue is with Josh not putting enough arc on the deep passes, he noted that it is impossible to do so with gusty winds (as was the case early in the game on Sunday when those 2-3 missed deep throws occurred). One of the great myths about deep passes is equating them with arm strength. This is not the case. In a way, a QB like Josh with top-3 level QB arm strength has to work to put greater touch on these deep passes. As an aside... Fouts is an interesting case in point. Despite all those passes, yards and TDs he accumulated in the Air Coryell system, he actually had a noodle for an arm (think Chad Pennington). What he had was nice touch, though (also, of course, mild San Diego climate, some fantastic receivers and a HoF pass-catching TE). When he had to play in blustery conditions (see the 1981 AFC Championship Game in Cinci), he didn't have the arm strength to get the job done.
ngbills Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 Do people watch other NFL games? The balls we are talking about with Josh are not even close. Its not the case that a WR is running a bad route or anything. They are egregiously bad balls. Lucky for Josh he has a lot of other positives attributes because at this point his deep ball is the worst in the league and something you dont see from a lot of NFL QB's. Sit down on Sunday and watch some other teams play. You wont see a lot of the deep misses the same way you see from Josh. Wont also see the athleticism or arm strength from a lot. That is the trade at this point.
Best Williams Available Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 Josh’s accuracy at 10-20 yards has been solid/improved; 20-40 not so much. As someone mentioned, he probably can chuck is 50-60 yards perfectly fine (max arm strength). The “deep” ball range, which appears to be between flicking his wrist and gunning it, is hard for him because it’s half max. Fine tuning it will require him to know his arm strength better and practice repeatedly. Most QBs can hit those 30-40 yarders easy because it’s their max. Perhaps the solution is send guys on 50 (not 30) yard routes into the wind (hope for line protection). It also seems to me that Daboll is calling bombs much more frequently at home v on the road. If so, why? Conditions are usually harder in B’lo. JA’s home v away stats show he’s worse at home and I wonder if this is partly why. We might need Roscoe Parrish or Marquis Goodwin back.
Tatonka68 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 Why not let John Brown throw a deep ball to Foster ?? 1
Antonio Posted December 11, 2019 Author Posted December 11, 2019 Ok I did my best LOL I can´t find another way. Red is the rout as he ran it. Yellow is what I am suggesting, push downfield insted of cutting to flat. Brown.vpj
JROC INTEL Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 I'll tell you what I see. Let me know your opinions. I see the routes not crossing the field nearly as much as I'd like. Maybe with more long across the field type routes, Josh can use his strength to get the ball to a WR rather than try to put it over the top / shoulder. It seems most of these deep shots have just been go routes straight down the field. With more cross field routes, the receiver will have a better look at the ball as well.
Antonio Posted December 11, 2019 Author Posted December 11, 2019 The point is, if you are the OC of the Buffalo Bills, how do you help Josh Allen? What do you do to help bim connect to his WR that are running open? Yes, Josh is not putting the ball where it needs to be. That is what I said at the beginning, he is inaccurate on those deep shots just as my QB. My solution, run the routes pushing downfield insted of cutting 45° to either side. Even when you are crossing from outside in, do it pushing forward, try to go deeper. You already have a step or to on the DB. That way the QB´s window to throw is biger.
zow2 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 I've already said my peace on this issue.. but I will point out the last 3-4 home games have been especially impacted by winds. Last season we got lucky on Sunday's with mostly calm winds. 1
Big Gun Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) My $.02 is Josh has such a big arm he has trouble taking something off of it. He can chuck it 80 yards, check He can zip it on a rope in at 30 - 40 yards, check He has a lot of trouble laying it in and dropping it into the bucket at 50 yards, check It is absolutely something he can work at and get better at. Would rather have a QB that has to reign it in than a QB that has a noodle arm. Kind of reminds me of a pitcher who gets a comebacker and he tries to lob it over to first base and it goes way over the first basemans head. Taking something off of it is hard to do in regards to guys who have extremely huge arms. Edited December 11, 2019 by pop gun 3 1
section122 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 I'm trying to find video but I had a theory about Josh's accuracy and I think Sunday proved it correct. If anyone can find a video of every throw I would appreciate it I had no luck. Josh is very accurate when he completes his throwing motion fully. He gets in trouble when he tries to get too "cute." When he is trying to place the ball instead of just letting it rip it gets away from him. Much like when a golfer tries to slow their swing down or take a half swing and gets themselves in trouble. His full throwing motion comes down as he completes it. When he throws long many times he stops himself halfway and doesn't complete the motion. It is amazing that I can't find a highlight package of missed throws or really any highlights that include the missed throws.
Best Williams Available Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Mrbojanglezs said: Allen's arm is just too strong. He is amazing on throws that call for "on a rope" throws but is not good on anything that requires arc. When he only needs 50% of his arm strength to throw a 30 yard pass and he needs to control trajectory its difficult for him. He needs to work on it A LOT in the off season. He needs to train himself to play the entire game at 50-70% arm strength all the time and ONLY throw it hard when he has a straight line rope shot. He should start by losing his TD celebration where he chucks it full arm into the stadium field-level walls. He should only chuck it 1/2 arm in there.
jrober38 Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 2 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Sometimes you can adjust their running stride, sometimes it's just a matter of lengthening the space between your legs when your run which means you're taking less strides and therefore faster. Yet it might not happen overnight either since once you run a certain way one develops the muscle memory is there but have to retrain it. Or the QB could just throw more accurate passes.
ngbills Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 58 minutes ago, section122 said: I'm trying to find video but I had a theory about Josh's accuracy and I think Sunday proved it correct. If anyone can find a video of every throw I would appreciate it I had no luck. Josh is very accurate when he completes his throwing motion fully. He gets in trouble when he tries to get too "cute." When he is trying to place the ball instead of just letting it rip it gets away from him. Much like when a golfer tries to slow their swing down or take a half swing and gets themselves in trouble. His full throwing motion comes down as he completes it. When he throws long many times he stops himself halfway and doesn't complete the motion. It is amazing that I can't find a highlight package of missed throws or really any highlights that include the missed throws. They used to post all the throws videos on the Bills website. Interestingly that has stopped... Your point is valid and much of what young QB's do over and over again. If you played QB you remember the boring drills to get your feet right, to turn your body right, position your throwing angle, etc. It is discipline and habit. It is one of the things that separates a good athlete from a QB. You need that discipline to and attention to detail. Not just rely on being an athlete with a strong arm.
ColoradoBills Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 The deep ball problem is mostly on Josh. I don't think it will get worked out this year but I do hope he hits on a few before the playoffs. Going into the off season I think the long ball should be a big part of his workouts. His big arm is a weapon and needs to become a concern for the defenses. The deep threat will open the intermediate area of the field too. I feel confident he can improve in this area with the right coaching and practice. Once he does, watch out! 1
The Jokeman Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 9 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: The deep ball problem is mostly on Josh. I don't think it will get worked out this year but I do hope he hits on a few before the playoffs. Going into the off season I think the long ball should be a big part of his workouts. His big arm is a weapon and needs to become a concern for the defenses. The deep threat will open the intermediate area of the field too. I feel confident he can improve in this area with the right coaching and practice. Once he does, watch out! Hopefully Josh and that WRs workout together in the offseason. 1
colin Posted December 11, 2019 Posted December 11, 2019 good thread. i was going to make a joke about "my two balls on the deep cents" but thought better of it. carry on.
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