My 2 cents on the deep balls

[jrober38]

25 minutes ago, Antonio said:

 

Exactly, the problem with his deep ball is that he normally overthrows his WOs, so a way to help him is to push downfield so that the window is biger, more marginf of error if you will. 

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Yes, most of the time.  The OP said that this was intended to help some of the throws.  Completing an extra deep ball or two can be the difference between a super bowl and not making the playoffs

 

100%.

 

I'd guess Allen has missed 8-10 deep balls to guys running free behind the coverage this year.

 

He missed three of them in the first quarter against the Ravens alone.

 

Those 8-10 plays likely would have resulted in a bunch of touchdowns. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

 

I think you are having trouble comprehending the OP.  This is what he said:

When running deep patterns I want them (the WR) to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter(n). This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

The OP is suggesting that the WR follow a straight line in their routes, not that they round them off.

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't think this makes much sense.

 

The shortest route from point A (the QB) to point B (where the ball lands) is a straight line.

 

Pushing farther up field in an attempt to round their route off isn't going to accomplish anything if they already can't get to the ball running in a straight line.

 

If Allen was under throwing these passes, this would make sense, but there's nothing you can do to a route to make things work if the QB is consistently throwing the ball 5 yards too far. 

 

100%.

 

I'd guess Allen has missed 8-10 deep balls to guys running free behind the coverage this year.

 

He missed three of them in the first quarter against the Ravens alone.

 

Those 8-10 plays likely would have resulted in a bunch of touchdowns. 

The current problem the QB is having isn’t going to be solved overnight.  While we wait for him to try and resolve his deep ball issues, the next best thing is to coach up the WOs to see if they can be the difference in a complete pass or not

[jrober38]

Just now, NewEra said:

The current problem the QB is having isn’t going to be solved overnight.  While we wait for him to try and resolve his deep ball issues, the next best thing is to coach up the WOs to see if they can be the difference in a complete pass or not

 

Again, how do you coach someone to run faster?

[HOUSE]

We need to draft WRs with longer arms

 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you are having trouble comprehending the OP.  This is what he said:

When running deep patterns I want them (the WR) to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter(n). This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

The OP is suggesting that the WR follow a straight line in their routes, not that they round them off.

 

Wrong.

 

Read the bold part.

 

He's saying that you run vertical, and when the ball is in the air you round your route off to the football. 

 

[DCBills_OG]

1 hour ago, Antonio said:

Good morning to the best fan base in the NFL!!

 

I just want to give my opinion on why I think there have been so many missed opportunities when taking deep shots, or maybe my take as how they can get it fix.

This is just my opinion, not bashing Josh or the WOs, they all need to do better.

 

Just as the Bills, I have the privilege of coaching a strong arm QB but is also a little off sometimes, so I always teach my WOs to help their QB with a small but simple solution. When running deep patterns I want them to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter. This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

If you watch some of the misses this last game, you can see that when the ball is thrown it seems like the WOs have a hard time adjusting to get to the ball. The first one to Brown the ball ended in his wrong shoulder (maybe Josh thought he was going to keep going straight, maybe the wind moved it, maybe just a bad throw) but if Brown pushed downfield he would have been able to adjust to that pass easily. I saw the same thing with the one to Foster in the 2^nd series and one more to Knox in the 3^rd one.

 

I know, there is no excuse, Josh needs to do a better job with ball placement (better arch and touch), but this is a way they can help him succeed in the meantime.

 

I wish I could post some video, but I don´t know how I can draw on it, but I will try latter on.

 

Why give us  two cents when it is only a penny for your thoughts??

[BuffaloBillies]

16 minutes ago, DCBills_OG said:

 

Why give us  two cents when it is only a penny for your thoughts??

 

If I had a nickel every time...

[Kelly the Dog]

25 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

We need to draft WRs with longer arms

 

You should always draft briefcase guys at WR instead of lunch pail guys, but he’s a showboat and always goes for the one hander. Pass. 

[dave mcbride]

52 minutes ago, otagoyellow said:

This is where I openly wonder if the height and longer reach of Duke Williams would be beneficial. I'm not saying one guy fixes everything, but could it hurt as a short term fix? 

He's way too slow. 

[zow2]

1 hour ago, Antonio said:

Good morning to the best fan base in the NFL!!

 

I just want to give my opinion on why I think there have been so many missed opportunities when taking deep shots, or maybe my take as how they can get it fix.

This is just my opinion, not bashing Josh or the WOs, they all need to do better.

 

Just as the Bills, I have the privilege of coaching a strong arm QB but is also a little off sometimes, so I always teach my WOs to help their QB with a small but simple solution. When running deep patterns I want them to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter. This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

If you watch some of the misses this last game, you can see that when the ball is thrown it seems like the WOs have a hard time adjusting to get to the ball. The first one to Brown the ball ended in his wrong shoulder (maybe Josh thought he was going to keep going straight, maybe the wind moved it, maybe just a bad throw) but if Brown pushed downfield he would have been able to adjust to that pass easily. I saw the same thing with the one to Foster in the 2^nd series and one more to Knox in the 3^rd one.

 

I know, there is no excuse, Josh needs to do a better job with ball placement (better arch and touch), but this is a way they can help him succeed in the meantime.

 

I wish I could post some video, but I don´t know how I can draw on it, but I will try latter on.

 

 

Good analysis.   To me,, and I've been saying this every week,  Josh Allen tries too hard to hit these guys in stride with passes that are too flat.  He tries to be too perfect.  What are the odds of hitting a guy 45-50 yards downfield on a flat rope with a vapor trail?!? 5% -10% maybe? .and even if the timing is perfect and NFL DB will be able to get a hand on it to deflect it because there's no arc.   The only time it worked all season was that deep throw to Brown at Miami.  In that case Brown was like 10-12 yards past the DB already so a flat pass was fine.  Josh's best pass of the season was that high arcing throw into a stiff wind against Denver, deep into the end zone.   Gave John Brown a chance to adjust, track it, and run under it... and the DB had no chance of defensing it.  It was "dropped in the bucket" as they say.   

Josh needs to work on his trajectory and arc.  That way he doesn't have to be perfect.  Let his guys run under it.   He should roll tape of Russell Wilson's deep completions.  He does it right.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, The Firebaugh Kid said:

What happened to "fearless"? 

Fearless is not scared of the interception.

He is too tight in these big games.

Coaches have to correct this. 

 

 

I think they’ve over corrected.  

 

Bills dont have a legit deep ball wr and seems like josh is overthrowing everything rather than under throwing. Because no one on the team is beating a corner to the ball. I noticed he’s making very few risky passes these days. 

 

For contrast, Watch the Steelers this weekend.

 

duck will just slog it up and there are several guys on that team that will come down with the ball. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[bigK14094]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

Im ok with the over throw....its normal.

 

What im not ok with is the lack of loft on his deep passes...hes just putting it on a line, so there is no adjustment opportunity for the WR.

 

Granted we dont have the greatest of 50/50 ball WRs....but if any WR has a step on their defender Allen needs to put loft on the ball and hope the WR can see it and get to it.

 

Just as a side note...it was windy as heck Sunday wasnt it? Maybe putting loft isnt the best idea.

Yes, our 50/50 ball receiver is inactive every week, since he caught the winning TD against the Titans.  Duke is a change of pace from the other receivers, and they are not using him.  Going for the speed guys, which is right in the general case, but there are times when a big receiver works.  I am sorry they are not varying their game in that dimension.

[NewEra]

53 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

Again, how do you coach someone to run faster?

Probably in the same way that you teach someone reading comprehension.  Painfully

[Kelly the Dog]

19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He's way too slow. 

I am not saying he is not, but one of the reasons he was brought up and made active in the first place is that he was making several spectacular plays on long balls in practice, including against Tre White. I saw three of them. He wasnt wide open but he was coming down with the ball.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I like Josh but the deep ball issue is entirely on him. He is not throwing a catchable ball. There is not enough arc. Brown ran a perfect route across the field and heading to the pylon. He was open by two steps. That's an easy throw and needs to be a TD. 

The Foster throw was closer and more difficult but still could have been better.

This is all on Josh. Last year he threw the 50/50 ball several times. This year he has not put the ball in play. It's fine from a turnover standpoint. But the NFL is about taking advantage of matchups and mistakes. He needs to capitalize on those few moments a game. He has shown great improvement on interception rate the last 8 weeks(still needs work on fumbles), now he just needs to be a little more opportunistic.

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Again, how do you coach someone to run faster?

Sometimes you can adjust their running stride, sometimes it's just a matter of lengthening the space between your legs when your run which means you're taking less strides and therefore faster. Yet it might not happen overnight either since once you run a certain way one develops the muscle memory is there but have to retrain it. 

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Antonio said:

Good morning to the best fan base in the NFL!!

 

I just want to give my opinion on why I think there have been so many missed opportunities when taking deep shots, or maybe my take as how they can get it fix.

This is just my opinion, not bashing Josh or the WOs, they all need to do better.

 

Just as the Bills, I have the privilege of coaching a strong arm QB but is also a little off sometimes, so I always teach my WOs to help their QB with a small but simple solution. When running deep patterns I want them to always push downfield as much as they can instead of crossing (post) or going to the sideline (corner), so after the break when you gain that step on the DB instead of going 45° to either side, I teach them to keep pushing forward and slightly going to their patter. This helps the QB so that he doesn’t have to make the perfect throw and if it is a little off it is easier for the WO to adjust towards the ball. This helps especially with fast WOs like Brown and Foster. Even when you are crossing form the back side of the play to the front, it is better to go up so you can always keep the ball in front of you.

 

If you watch some of the misses this last game, you can see that when the ball is thrown it seems like the WOs have a hard time adjusting to get to the ball. The first one to Brown the ball ended in his wrong shoulder (maybe Josh thought he was going to keep going straight, maybe the wind moved it, maybe just a bad throw) but if Brown pushed downfield he would have been able to adjust to that pass easily. I saw the same thing with the one to Foster in the 2^nd series and one more to Knox in the 3^rd one.

 

I know, there is no excuse, Josh needs to do a better job with ball placement (better arch and touch), but this is a way they can help him succeed in the meantime.

 

I wish I could post some video, but I don´t know how I can draw on it, but I will try latter on.

The problem is not the wrs. They're getting open. You answered your own question. ARC & TOUCH. I've been screaming this all season and apparently Dorsey and Daboll either aren't teaching Josh this or he's stubborn? It's an easy fix.....

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

1 hour ago, BringBackFlutie said:

 

Watching his combine throws, I noticed the opposite.  He hit a lot of his deep balls.  What he tends to need, though, is enough time for the guy to get 65 yards downfield so he can max out his arm strength and get a ton of loft under it.  His biggest problem is just adjusting.  That will come with time with different receivers, but it helps immensely to have WRs who can track the deep ball, as well as using deep patterns other than go routes (with which he seems to do fine).  Watch the other QBs in the league who regularly complete these passes- the WR has 5-10 yards of separation and the ball is often a bit under or overthrown, but there's room to adjust, or the WR runs a deep breaking route where the QB is able to simply throw it in the vicinity and the WR runs to it with a free release.  So, three things- more deep breaking routes, less fading on the go routes with Josh learning to under throw a bit, and, last but not least- WRs who can track the deep ball.  

Yes, it seems I see wide open receivers deep every non-Bills game I watch. They usually slow up for the ball. But Josh apparently needs to hit them perfectly in stride for some reason. Is this a scheme issue?

[Buffalo Junction]

50 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

 

Good analysis.   To me,, and I've been saying this every week,  Josh Allen tries too hard to hit these guys in stride with passes that are too flat.  He tries to be too perfect.  What are the odds of hitting a guy 45-50 yards downfield on a flat rope with a vapor trail?!? 5% -10% maybe? .and even if the timing is perfect and NFL DB will be able to get a hand on it to deflect it because there's no arc.   The only time it worked all season was that deep throw to Brown at Miami.  In that case Brown was like 10-12 yards past the DB already so a flat pass was fine.  Josh's best pass of the season was that high arcing throw into a stiff wind against Denver, deep into the end zone.   Gave John Brown a chance to adjust, track it, and run under it... and the DB had no chance of defensing it.  It was "dropped in the bucket" as they say.   

Josh needs to work on his trajectory and arc.  That way he doesn't have to be perfect.  Let his guys run under it.   He should roll tape of Russell Wilson's deep completions.  He does it right.

The key part of the bolded is “into a stiff wind”. Josh threw the same pass that he normally throws, but the wind corrected the velocity problem. Perhaps they need to start taking deep shots into the wind. ?‍♂️ Or see if Usain Bolt can catch a football.