Joe B All-22 vs Baltimore from The Athletic

[eball]

If cover1 (erik turner) is praising Martindale's scheme and talking about how hard it was to diagnose where the blitz was coming from, that's good enough for me.  4th quarter Josh turned it on again, just a tad too late.  All of these experiences are helping him grow as a QB -- and just wait until we get a couple more weapons in the offseason.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I did see Beasley on the final play coming open but Josh had already made the decision to go to Brown.  I agree whole heartedly with that analysis of the final play.  Beasley would of had the first and possibly a TD as well still not sure why he has not become the number one place to look for when Josh needs critical yardage the guy gets open because Brown is drawing the top DB as team are really focusing on eliminating him form Buffalo's passing game imo.

 

If you look very carefully at the all-22 (and someone posted this totally cool graphic off Yards Per Pass twitter) Beasley had only just started his break and it's not clear whether he'll get separation at the point where Josh threw to Brown.  He has plenty of time in that throw, but from how the defenders are moving I rate it as "not proven" whether he'd have had the extra second or two to get it to Beasley on that particular play.

 

The thing is, it's total hindsight second guessing for Joe B; he calls Smoke's 3 stutter steps unconvincing, and they were,  but the fact is Smoke ran the route fast enough to be open and let Josh make a throw before the pressure got to him.  If they want Beasley to be an option for Josh on those routes, he needs to somehow speed up his routes a bit, but he "sold" his route so well because he gave it time to develop.  I am not a WR guru but I believe Smoke might have been able to move so as to "box out" Peters - this is actually something Duke Williams is good at, subtly using his body to shield the catch from the DB (but DOWN BOYS Duke doesn't have the speed to get down there and get open on that route in the first place).

 

 

[ngbills]

Allen goes to Beasley and it is short of the first then we have issues. I think we should have ran the 4th down play on downs 1-3 and gone to Beasley on it. Its a hard play to defend when your trying to protect from the TD. All game should have run more quick pick routes and thrown the short pass. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Brown is the best Bills route runner since Stevie? 

C’mon now. Woods? Sammy? 

Then also I remember Stevie didn’t run routes that well at all. He’d toast guys like Revis because no one knew what the hell he was gonna do.  

Then washed out of the league because neither did the coaches or QBs.  Fitz was the only guy on earth that could figure out what he was gonna do.

 

Yep.  Stevie got open because he worked in Chan Gailey's "beat your man, get to the spot" system.  In systems where he was expected to run a precise route to a precise spot, not so much.  And an undisclosed number of Fitz' picks on throws to Stevie were because Stevie wasn't where Fitz expected him to be, so even Fitzy couldn't figure it out with 100% success.

 

Brown is a very good route runner, but if he wants to be a #1 WR he has to figure out how to make those contested catches and how to play against a physical handsy DB.  You can't just stand in the locker room post-game and complain that the defense was getting away with stuff.  The defense always gets away with stuff.  If he wants to live up to the "Smoke is Dangerous" hype and do the pro-bowl thing, he needs to take a step with his contested catch abilities.

 

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

My issue with your take and with Joe B's is that it doesn't factor in the quality of the CB. Marcus Peters is really, really good. As I've said elsewhere, there's a reason why good organizations covet him despite the fact that he's one of the biggest a-holes in the league.

I think you're confusing Knox with Dawkins.

 

It was clearly Knox who got pwned on the strip sack that gave the Ravens the ball at the 24, and that was a blindside speed rush that 9 out of 10 QB cough up the ball under.

[dave mcbride]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you look very carefully at the all-22 (and someone posted this totally cool graphic off Yards Per Pass twitter) Beasley had only just started his break and it's not clear whether he'll get separation at the point where Josh threw to Brown.  He has plenty of time in that throw, but from how the defenders are moving I rate it as "not proven" whether he'd have had the extra second or two to get it to Beasley on that particular play.

 

The thing is, it's total hindsight second guessing for Joe B; he calls Smoke's 3 stutter steps unconvincing, and they were,  but the fact is Smoke ran the route fast enough to be open and let Josh make a throw before the pressure got to him.  If they want Beasley to be an option for Josh on those routes, he needs to somehow speed up his routes a bit, but he "sold" his route so well because he gave it time to develop.  I am not a WR guru but I believe Smoke might have been able to move so as to "box out" Peters - this is actually something Duke Williams is good at, subtly using his body to shield the catch from the DB (but DOWN BOYS Duke doesn't have the speed to get down there and get open on that route in the first place).

 

 

Plus the fact that the majority of passing plays that took any amount of time had resulted in jailbreaks during that part of the game meant that he KNEW he had to sling it. Can't risk another sack there. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I am talking about the previous time the Bills ran that play, when Beasley did not get open and Josh took a sack. 

 

Wasn't one of Judon's sacks against Knox? 

 

Against is a generous way of describing it.

[ILBillsfan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If you look very carefully at the all-22 (and someone posted this totally cool graphic off Yards Per Pass twitter) Beasley had only just started his break and it's not clear whether he'll get separation at the point where Josh threw to Brown.  He has plenty of time in that throw, but from how the defenders are moving I rate it as "not proven" whether he'd have had the extra second or two to get it to Beasley on that particular play.

 

The thing is, it's total hindsight second guessing for Joe B; he calls Smoke's 3 stutter steps unconvincing, and they were,  but the fact is Smoke ran the route fast enough to be open and let Josh make a throw before the pressure got to him.  If they want Beasley to be an option for Josh on those routes, he needs to somehow speed up his routes a bit, but he "sold" his route so well because he gave it time to develop.  I am not a WR guru but I believe Smoke might have been able to move so as to "box out" Peters - this is actually something Duke Williams is good at, subtly using his body to shield the catch from the DB (but DOWN BOYS Duke doesn't have the speed to get down there and get open on that route in the first place).

 

 

Taster talked about this w Chris brown on the Murphy show and Tasker still felt Peters red the play correctly in the slant that it would not of mattered.  Also mentioned his speed is so lacking they are rolling with speed.  
 

adding wants to that big body guy w speed WR that will help in some 50/50 balls imo 

 

bte I had no issues w Josh going to Brown.  After Josh hurt his foot/ankle the ravens really came after him knowing his mobility was limited hence he only had three or four rushes so getting the call out quick became priority 

[CincyBillsFan]

I have a couple of issues with Joe B's analysis here:

 

*  I disagree that Allen was off for 3 quarters.  He was off in the 1st half but in the 3rd  quarter he was actually doing well and the Bill's scoring was hurt by a couple of huge drops and the failure of the refs to throw a flag on the deep shot to Foster.  If Knox & Beasley hold on to their passes the Bills likely have 7 - 10 more points on the board going into the 4th quarter.  To claim that the game was lost because Allen was off through the first 3 quarters is FALSE.  The game was lost IMO because our receivers didn't make plays on at least four passes in the 3rd quarter.

 

* On the Bills last play you want your QB throwing an accurate pass to your #1 WR in the end zone when he has single coverage.  EVERY SINGLE TIME.  This is exactly what Allen did.  The pass was released quickly and was on the money.  A great defensive play by the Ravens CB (they get paid to play football to) and less then stellar pattern by Brown meant that the pass fell incomplete.  The notion that Allen should have been checking down to his #2 or #3 read in that situation is ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by CincyBillsFan

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, GG said:

 

Hyperbole much?   Beasley made one great move and had clear separation.  But that wasn't the point of his piece.

 

Joe B wasn't faulting Allen.  He's rightly calling out Brown's feeble triple step in his pattern as the primary culprit.  If Brown ran a better pattern, it's a TD.   

 

Joe's commentary on Allen was that with more seasoning, Allen would recognize that the rush wasn't severe, Brown is covered well and he should progress to his next read.

 

There have been a couple of those plays this year where Brown looked just lackadaisical on that exact pattern.  I can't remember which games exactly, but it was like that exact same play we ran to John Brown and the DB did the exact same thing.  I know I shouldn't read into body language or anything, but it also just looked like Brown didn't give a *****... he's been very good for us this year so I don't think it's fair to overly criticize him, but on that particular play and a couple early in the season running the exact same route, something is seriously missing.

 

Those are the plays that make me desperately want a big WR and that make me wish we'd just have Duke Williams activated... I feel like he'd at least make an effort to reach out and grab the ball in mid-air.

Edited December 11, 2019 by transplantbillsfan

[mjt328]

7 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

I did se Beasley on the final play coming open but Josh had already made the decision to go to Brown.  I agree whole heartedly with that analysis of the final play.  Beasley would of had the first and possibly a TD as well still not sure why he has not become the number one place to look for when Josh needs critical yardage the guy gets open because Brown is drawing the top DB as team are really focusing on eliminating him form Buffalo's passing game imo.

 

This is what happens when the blocking has been terrible ALL GAME, and the quarterback knows he's got one last chance to make a play.

 

He knew Brown got open on a similar route earlier in the game, and hoped he could do it again.  He didn't.

 

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I have a couple of issues with Joe B's analysis here:

 

*  I disagree that Allen was off for 3 quarters.  He was off in the 1st half but in the 3rd  quarter he was actually doing well and the Bill's scoring was hurt by a couple of huge drops and the failure of the refs to throw a flag on the deep shot to Foster.  If Knox & Beasley hold on to their passes the Bills likely have 7 - 10 more points on the board going into the 4th quarter.  To claim that the game was lost because Allen was off through the first 3 quarters is FALSE.  The game was lost IMO because our receivers didn't make plays on at least four passes in the 3rd quarter.

 

* On the Bills last play you want your QB throwing an accurate pass to your #1 WR in the end zone when he has single coverage.  EVERY SINGLE TIME.  This is exactly what Allen did.  The pass was released quickly and was on the money.  A great defensive play by the Ravens CB (they get paid to play football to) and less then stellar pattern by Brown meant that the pass fell incomplete.  The notion that Allen should have been checking down to his #2 or #3 read in that situation is ludicrous.

 

 

 

 

The deep shot to Foster was interference, but it wasn't a good throw. It was a desperation heave. 

[warrior9]

5 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

I think Joe B assumes a lot watching the slowed down all 22. There is pressure bearing down on the 4th down play that’s about to break through and force Josh out of the pocket. He wasn’t going to risk waiting for Beasley to make a move and having the ball batted down , getting hit etc. He decided to throw to Brown on the slant and Brown didn’t do much to get open. He still probably should have caught the ball as it hit him in the hands. A more physical WR makes that play a good percentage of the time. The Bills offense has very limited weapons in its arsenal when trying to beat a high caliber defensive unit like Baltimore. I didn’t like the play selection by Daboll in that final sequence. First and ten at the 18 with plenty of time and an opportunity to get another first down is a good situation. I want my OC to have an answer there, and he didn’t. The db was waiting on the slant, and the Bills don’t have superior athletes that can just make a play even when you know what’s coming. 

No receiver is making that catch. That was absolutely picture perfect coverage. Was truly a great play by Peters.

If I had to guess, that was a pre-determined throw from Daboll to get Brown one-on-one on the inside post. Josh looked no where else. We went to Brown at the end of the Cleveland game too. 

 

I would like Knox to get to the point where we have him flanked out on a slant on 3/4th down and 6+ to rely on. He is so athletic and such a physical freak. We just need him to become more sure handed.

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

The deep shot to Foster was interference, but it wasn't a good throw. It was a desperation heave. 

 

What do you describe as a "good throw"?  If the interference doesn't happen Foster catches the ball, yes?  That seems like a good throw to me.

 

On deep throws accuracy is a bit different then 10 yard slant passes.   Have you watched how KC's T. Hill tracks down and catches a deep ball?

 

The throw by Allen on that play was a fantastic deep pass that was on target where it could only be caught by a Bills player or draw a PI by the Ravens player.  The fact the dirty ref didn't throw the flag is simply a comment on the crappy officiating that we put up with in the NFL.

 

 

[Rc2catch]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

No receiver is making that catch. That was absolutely picture perfect coverage. Was truly a great play by Peters.

If I had to guess, that was a pre-determined throw from Daboll to get Brown one-on-one on the inside post. Josh looked no where else. 

It was excellent coverage. I would of preferred brown go get the ball though in that case as opposed to waiting for it to get through. It was a rough play. Gotta give peters his credit for playing the route and ball as good as it can be. 

[GunnerBill]

I don't really blame Josh on the final play. Yes the ball could have been thrown an inch or so more precise and yes if he held onto it maybe he sees Beasley open. But it was a throw that could have been caught. Peters played it well but Brown had a chance to make a play and that is all you can ask for in that situation.

 

On Dawkins I am with Joe B. I was for moving on at LT after 4 games. Since then Dawkins has been lights out one of our best players. He is the future at LT.

4 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

* On the Bills last play you want your QB throwing an accurate pass to your #1 WR in the end zone when he has single coverage.  EVERY SINGLE TIME.  This is exactly what Allen did.  The pass was released quickly and was on the money.  A great defensive play by the Ravens CB (they get paid to play football to) and less then stellar pattern by Brown meant that the pass fell incomplete.  The notion that Allen should have been checking down to his #2 or #3 read in that situation is ludicrous.

 

 

I think "on the money" is an exaggeration. It was good enough to be caught though, without doubt. And I agree that it was just a great play by the DB and that Allen was right to go there with the ball rather than wait on a 2nd option. 

.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, ILBillsfan said:

Taster talked about this w Chris brown on the Murphy show and Tasker still felt Peters red the play correctly in the slant that it would not of mattered.  Also mentioned his speed is so lacking they are rolling with speed.  
 

adding wants to that big body guy w speed WR that will help in some 50/50 balls imo 

 

bte I had no issues w Josh going to Brown.  After Josh hurt his foot/ankle the ravens really came after him knowing his mobility was limited hence he only had three or four rushes so getting the call out quick became priority 

 

I'm not sure I follow this - could you expand a little, maybe change word choice?  What does this mean? 

"Tasker still felt Peters red the play correctly in the slant that it would not of mattered.  Also mentioned his speed is so lacking they are rolling with speed"

[ILBillsfan]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure I follow this - could you expand a little, maybe change word choice?  What does this mean? 

"Tasker still felt Peters red the play correctly in the slant that it would not of mattered.  Also mentioned his speed is so lacking they are rolling with speed"

Sorry he was referring if Duke Williams would of been the target there he could of shielded Peters more from breaking up that play

[Locomark]

On 12/11/2019 at 7:54 AM, GG said:

 

Hyperbole much?   Beasley made one great move and had clear separation.  But that wasn't the point of his piece.

 

Joe B wasn't faulting Allen.  He's rightly calling out Brown's feeble triple step in his pattern as the primary culprit.  If Brown ran a better pattern, it's a TD.   

 

Joe's commentary on Allen was that with more seasoning, Allen would recognize that the rush wasn't severe, Brown is covered well and he should progress to his next read.

I watched that play multiple times. That read was a 1 read play. I was disputing your assertion that Beasley was open QUICKLY which he almost never is. It needed to be a bang bang play because of the day it had been for the O Line. You are right in the future Josh will have more patience but also in the future maybe the coordinator will design a play where there a 2 quick read routes. That offense is failing in lots of ways. 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, Locomark said:

I watched that play multiple times. That read was a 1 read play. I was disputing your assertion that Beasley was open QUICKLY which he almost never is. It needed to be a bang bang play because of the day it had been for the O Line. You are right in the future Josh will have more patience but also in the future maybe the coordinator will design a play where there a 2 quick read routes. That offense is failing in lots of ways. 

 

Yes I watched that play a million times as well.  First of all the Ravens brought 8 guys on the blitz on that play.  It was 2 seconds into the play that Beasley gets open.  Allen did what I would want him to do.  On 4th and game he threw to his #1 receiver, who is in man coverage, to try and win a football game.  8 guys coming.  He has a clock and is not holding the ball to see if someone 2 yards away is getting open.  By that time, if there was a window to throw to Brown, it would be long closed.  People would be screaming he holds the ball too long yadda yadda yadda.  Allen absolutely did the right thing.  It just didn't work out.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scott7975

[GG]

2 hours ago, Locomark said:

I watched that play multiple times. That read was a 1 read play. I was disputing your assertion that Beasley was open QUICKLY which he almost never is. It needed to be a bang bang play because of the day it had been for the O Line. You are right in the future Josh will have more patience but also in the future maybe the coordinator will design a play where there a 2 quick read routes. That offense is failing in lots of ways. 

You made the assertion that Allen had to wait for  Beasley to make his usual 3 step move, which wasn't the case.   

 

The play dictated 1st read.  If Beas was that first read, the play would have worked, because at the same time Allen releases to Brown, Beasley is open.