Gugny Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 I didn't see this posted anywhere, so if it has been, I'm sorry for the dupe. Listening to Golic/Wingo this morning, Golic Jr., found a tweet detailing how the Pats cheated in 2007 (the original Spygate). Film crews went to games of future opponents as employees of Kraft Productions, prepared with canned excuses in case they were asked any questions. That's exactly what happened on Sunday. I've often opined that I didn't give a crap about the Pats' cheating ways. I feel differently now. When is enough going to be enough for the NFL to do something? I'm not talking about vacating championships or wins. But there should be some severe punishments levied if they determine the Pats were, in fact, cheating again. Lots of money and multiple first/second round draft picks. 2
stevewin Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 49 minutes ago, Nanker said: They’re worried about the Bengals? The BENGALS? The Bengals just happened to be who they were filming when they got caught. If anything it just supports that the cheating is constant and in place for all opponents - no discrimination
CLTbills Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: That part is easy to explain: pro scouts do advanced scouting of other teams. The part that can't be explained away is why they only got permission from the visiting team. Yes, but that isn't the explanation they used. The explanation they used is, "We're filming a documentary series for our website" Why would a documentary about the Patriots require film from a game that the Patriots aren't even participating in? Edited December 10, 2019 by CLTbills
boco357 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, stevewin said: The Bengals just happened to be who they were filming when they got caught. If anything it just supports that the cheating is constant and in place for all opponents - no discrimination Especially now when they can't score points and Dalton is playing again. Averaged 20 points the last 2 games and that is enough to win vs their offense now. Of course now they are going to use this as a rallying cry too. Edited December 10, 2019 by boco357
Doc Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 35 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: I agree. Strip them of every Lombardi they've ever won. Anyone that defends that organization is delusional. Even ESPN is slamming them. 1
BringBackFergy Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 The other 31 NFL owners should demand to see the footage that was taken at the game. Of course, it's possible the Pats already scrubbed the footage to make it look innocuous. Whoever caught them probably didn't confiscate the film. But if the material they recorded is close up shots of the QB coach or other offensive coordinators using hand signals or talking into a microphone, there's plenty of people in the Pats organization that can decipher the hand signals or even read lips. If this was a true "documentary" piece, they could get all the footage they needed during warm ups and provide a live feed copy to the teams playing in that game. They got caught and it seems we'll never know what was on that original film....knowing their history, I'd say it was closeup shots of QB coaches and coordinators relaying plays. Pieces of chit.
Dibs Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 11 hours ago, NoSaint said: it’s still a bit odd to me they’d lay tape for 7 other segments just to set up the bengals for this. That’s high level commitment for low level gains. why not run this scam for a bigger game, no? not so much a defense as a curiousity Though I am not an accomplished multi-scam cheater like those in NE, I think that if I was organizing this I would set up a legit crew to do the doco segments....AND have a crew go to cover my scout guy every week as well. If we are ever caught, regardless of the week, we claim we are filming the doco..."Look here are some previous episodes to show it's all legit." The payoff isn't the Bengals game. The payoff is EVERY game. They just happened to get caught this week. Like I said, I'm no mastermind scammer, but if this can work in week 14 against the Bengals(getting a crew in the box), I would certainly be doing it at every "scout" game....if I was a big old cheater that is.
major Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 I think goodell and the league knows that if this comes out, it’s steroids/baseball type of scandal that will take years to repair. Instead, they cover it up (much like they did with concussions). It will come out though- see Astros
TheFunPolice Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) Why the Bengals? The Bengals? Again, because it's not about the Bengals or this week's game. Any advantage gained there is incidental. It's about building info on a new HC from the McVay tree. It's for the future as much as anything else. Taylor will be gone in a year or two in Cincy and end up the OC on a good team. This is just data for Ernie Adams to have at his disposal just in case he can notice something from the entire quarter worth of film of the coach on the sidelines. The Patriots look for every minute detail. It won them a Super Bowl vs Seattle. They knew the play because they knew every tiny nuance. Ernie Adams would watch film of McDermott eating breakfast, just to see if he could learn anything. 99% of this filming is probably useless, but it's about the 1 gem Ernie Adams can find. That's his job. It's surveillance of other coaching staffs, plain and simple. 99.9% of surveillance is mundane and useless. Just part of the deal. Edited December 10, 2019 by TheFunPolice 1
entropyrules Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 7 minutes ago, Gugny said: I've often opined that I didn't give a crap about the Pats' cheating ways. I feel differently now. When is enough going to be enough for the NFL to do something? I'm not talking about vacating championships or wins. But there should be some severe punishments levied if they determine the Pats were, in fact, cheating again. Lots of money and multiple first/second round draft picks. I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office.
apuszczalowski Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, Groin said: Not sure what the repercussions would be of invalidating their championships, ie would the losing team be crowned as champs, would the entire league's season be invalidated, etc etc etc? Personally, should these allegations be confirmed, I think that NE should be forced to cease all operations (not allowed to participate in any games, not allowed to sell merch, no Pats-related broadcasts) for three years. They could just tell them they will no longer be recognized as champions but what would that matter? Everyone's already been through them winning, it's just changing what's written in the history books. And there's no way they force them to cease all operations, that would cost the league money. The most they could do is suspend or ban the coaching staff if it's found they willingly did this to cheat, and force Kraft to have to sell the franchise (similar to what some league's have done to owners who have been found doing other misconducts not tied to the league or sport)
Rc2catch Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, major said: I think goodell and the league knows that if this comes out, it’s steroids/baseball type of scandal that will take years to repair. Instead, they cover it up (much like they did with concussions). It will come out though- see Astros The league has to stay ahead of it. They can’t cover it up because the bengals have the original video. The NFL has a copy the bengals made them. If the league tries to hide things or releases a report or punishment stating different Cincinnati can release the video. That’s what I understood from reading on here and the pats board anyways when all the tweets started coming out.
May Day 10 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, entropyrules said: I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office. I get what you are saying, but this isnt one isolated incident. This is pervasive conduct that has been going on long-term with warnings from the league.
Gugny Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, entropyrules said: I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office. I agree that they want to be careful about setting precedent. But this would mark the 3rd (?) time that they've formally been caught cheating; and the second time caught spying. Precedent has already been set for being caught once. Now they need to come down with significant weight.
SectionC3 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, CLTbills said: Yes, but that isn't the explanation they used. The explanation they used is, "We're filming a documentary series for our website" Why would a documentary about the Patriots require film from a game that the Patriots aren't even participating in? because a patriots employee is being filmed. Unless the employee went “rogue,” one would think that the activity was sanctioned by the organization. bottom line here: the patriots lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago. And the optics of what happened here are horrible for the Patriots. The league office cannot be happy that it has to deal with another incident like this involving the patriots in the home stretch of its 100th season.
apuszczalowski Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, entropyrules said: I'm in Pats territory and dislike them and a number of their more idiotic fans but an overly severe punishment may set a terrible precedent for other teams who inadvertently stumble doing something stupid and then are required to have the same punishment meted out. I would prefer that they simply remove the Pat's ability to get any compensatory picks for about 3-5 years. The rationale is then no one can say they were totally stripped of the ability to field a competitive team. Its one of those areas where they play the game better than any other team so take that advantage away as teaching lesson. Of course that has some drawbacks if you have teams with almost no comp picks (aka the Bills); there is then no disincentive. The one piece I don't get is if every team knows the Pat's are doing this why do they have no or very weak counter measures. Surely there must be a Cersei Lannister lurking in every teams front office. But the difference is that this isn't the first time for them, they know they can get away with it or just take a small punishment. They need to be hit harder because they keep doing it. If it came out tomorrow the Bills taped an opponent to steal their signs, it would be a first accusation against them. For the Pats, it's added to the list of previous accusations of shady practices and cheating.
TheCockSportif Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said: They could just tell them they will no longer be recognized as champions but what would that matter? Everyone's already been through them winning, it's just changing what's written in the history books. And there's no way they force them to cease all operations, that would cost the league money. The most they could do is suspend or ban the coaching staff if it's found they willingly did this to cheat, and force Kraft to have to sell the franchise (similar to what some league's have done to owners who have been found doing other misconducts not tied to the league or sport) Yes indeed. It did cross my mind that Kraft could be forced to sell the team. Not a bad idea to boot!
SectionC3 Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 I’ll add that belichick had what for him was a lengthy statement on the matter. It struck me as unusual given that the recording allegedly is independent of the patriots and unrelated to the patriots next football game. It tells me that the patriots are aware of the gravity of the situation, as is belichick, and they want to get in front of it. 1
TheFunPolice Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 When something doesn't make sense there is usually a reason... One team is so much smarter than EVERYONE else and understands football better than everyone else, even though they cannot draft worth a crap. Think about that one. I'm convinced that Ernie Adams' job is to watch all this video and learn as much about the other coaching staffs as possible. Like I said, people focusing on "why the Bengals?" are missing the point. Every second of the video could be useless. Or maybe not.
Buffaloaf Posted December 10, 2019 Posted December 10, 2019 43 minutes ago, stevewin said: There is zero - ZERO - chance Brady hasn't had knowledge of, and been complicit with, all the cheating over the past 20 years. He freaking learned how to play QB by never having his helmet radio turned off on the field for God's sake I don't disagree with you. I was just trying to make the point that players don't necessarily have to be aware of the pats cheating. I think it's likely Brady knows at least something is going on. Could be the reason he is willing to take less money than he could probably get on the open market. What the Patriots have done is just not statistically possible. Teams with little top talent, like many of the Pats teams over the years, don't win 12 or 13 games a year and go to the superbowl.
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