Not gonna totally blame Daboll, but blaming Daboll for playcalling

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/9/2019 at 1:19 PM, RyanC883 said:

 

and if you do, you have quick routes designed to get the ball out quickly, much like NE does.  However, this was not happening.  

 

On some (not all) plays, the quick routes were there.  I joked on a couple plays Singletary should have one of those tall fiberglass poles with a day glow orange flag attached to him, like they use for the snowplows in WNY.

 

This was true against Philly, also.

[Gugny]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

On some (not all) plays, the quick routes were there.  I joked on a couple plays Singletary should have one of those tall fiberglass poles with a day glow orange flag attached to him, like they use for the snowplows in WNY.

 

This was true against Philly, also.

 

Yep.  Josh needs to learn that it's okay to be "Captain Checkdown," sometimes.  He's acknowledged it.  He's been great (in my opinion) at making adjustments/improvements and I'm confident he'll get better at this.

[LABILLBACKER]

On 12/9/2019 at 11:10 AM, Boatdrinks said:

Daboll’s game plan was crap. The 49 ers exploited the Ravens on the edges with speed on the ground and with WR screens etc, and Daboll didn’t flow the blueprint. This team still looks like a screen is a foreign concept. He called several series of run, run, pass and had no answers for overload pressure. He followed up a great plan vs DAL with a terrible one for the Ravens. 

He's poor at attacking other team's flaws. His playbook is fine, but his situational playcalling is terrible. Teams now know to attack Josh with cover 0 blitzes. He has no hot reads embedded into anything. Why call 5 unsuccessful bombs against the Ravens when you already know Josh has not yet established a " touch" to throw then. Stick with routes under 30, move the chains until JA fixes this issue. Daboll probably won't be long for this team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 12/9/2019 at 1:05 PM, Steptide said:

I definitely think he could've called some better plays, especially in the 2nd half. To his credit, Allen did improve after halftime though. 

 

However, I was certain after halftime, they'd start calling some jet sweeps with mckenzie or foster, but I don't think they called one yesterday. I know the Ravens were getting a ton of pressure, but still think play action would've been effective, and I don't think we saw alot of that yesterday either. Even if that didn't work, some quick dump offs to singletary over the middle probably would've worked with all the pressure. Daboll for whatever reason kept throwing the quick pass to the sideline. Admittedly, it did work at times, but some more creativity would've been nice. Anyway, just my 2 cents. 

 

I was reluctant to merge and bump this thread because much of the best analysis was in other threads, such as "Revisiting Allen Scouting Report" and "NFL Next Gen Stats - 6 Most Improved Players" (which features Allen).  

 

Singletary over the middle is not a good call.  On many plays, Singletary was kept in to block and came out late as a checkdown option.   When he did, a lot of times the Ravens were giving him room.

 

But Beasley or Knox over the middle is a good option, and there were times when they were there.  Here's some analysis of it:

I posted one screen cap of a play where Knox was standing in 'put it right in my breadbasket, Partner' pose over the middle and Allen passed him up for a higher DoD throw to McKensie.  This was on an early down, and converting would have given us 2nd or 3rd and 2-3 instead of 3rd and 10.

 

But at other times, Daboll's playcalling was weird.  I posted an in-depth of a full series where I felt it was particularly strange:

 

Here are a couple of my earlier takes, not as be-all but just as a guide in to some of the other discussion on this point.

 

[frostbitmic]

When a team is getting blitz heavy there has to be a hot read or two on every pass.

 

Against the Ravens, I think going with 2 WR's on each side, one on each side running a short curl and Singletary running a wheel route out of the backfield would slow down the blitz.

 

I still don't understand why Daboll calls for the long pass in 30 MPH winds, especially when Josh is getting rushed heavily.

[Scott7975]

This is where I am at with Daboll…. he may be great at designing plays to get people open.  He may even be great at calling said plays at the right time.  What he isn't good at is helping his team and QB out.  Let me try to explain what I mean.

 

Daboll seems to go with what he wants to work.  His system is all designed based on... if you can accomplish this against this team then this play will work.  What he doesn't seem to take into consideration is if our team can actually accomplish what he is asking them to do.  Daboll seems to be the guy that wants to force his system on a team no matter who they have playing on the team.  He also seems to force his game plan against any given team rather than trying to expose weaknesses of said team.  Like if a team is really bad on the outside and we have players that can run outside really well... Singletary, Foster, McKenzie... he would rather bang them into the teeth of a defense where the defense is known to be really strong.  It's like he wants to prove he cant impose his will on them.  Surprising because this is not what they do in NE at all.  They find a teams weakness and adjust during the game to expose it.

 

I know on the Browns and Miami he had crappy QBs, but he tried to do the same thing on those teams too.  If your QB can't throw an out pass then stop calling them.  If you RB cant get tough yards up the middle of a defense then don't call those. For examples.  

 

I like Daboll, I really do, but he seems like a guy that's just trying to prove that he is the smartest guy in the room rather than a guy who plays to his teams strengths and opposing teams weaknesses.  Daboll is the Rex Ryan of offense.  His system has become more important than the players he has running said system.  I don't want to see him fired.  I do think he is a good coordinator. I just wish he would help Josh and this offense out more than he does.  Although maybe by doing this now it will make Josh and this offense better down the road when they CAN execute what he wants.  Time will tell.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Scott7975

[dickleyjones]

I think daboll is fine. Allen hits one or more of those three long ball misses and the game is much different. Yes, Allen has had some trouble with those. But he needs to keep trying. Daboll needs to keep trying. They need to hit those and the best way to do that is practice in game. I don't see the game plans being 100% about winning right now.

 

Allen still has brain training to do, and that can only be done in a game. He has shown he is a great learner, and being allowed to fail is part of that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, dickleyjones said:

I think daboll is fine. Allen hits one or more of those three long ball misses and the game is much different. Yes, Allen has had some trouble with those. But he needs to keep trying. Daboll needs to keep trying. They need to hit those and the best way to do that is practice in game. I don't see the game plans being 100% about winning right now.

 

Allen still has brain training to do, and that can only be done in a game. He has shown he is a great learner, and being allowed to fail is part of that.

 

The problem isn't a couple of deep ball shots.  The problem is to keep taking them, over easier, higher percentage plays, the whole 1st Q.

 

It's not good "brain training" for Allen to keep taking deep shots when he's under too much pressure to have room to set his feet and make the throw with the right mechanics to get it there.

[dickleyjones]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem isn't a couple of deep ball shots.  The problem is to keep taking them, over easier, higher percentage plays, the whole 1st Q.

 

It's not good "brain training" for Allen to keep taking deep shots when he's under too much pressure to have room to set his feet and make the throw with the right mechanics to get it there.

no need for quotes on the brain training, it's real.

 

I actually i think it is good brain training. he could have hit them, he should have hit them. and in the future i believe, he will hit them. but it is difficult to do if you do not practice it (and i mean practice in game).

[dlonce]

Not a fan of Dabol and likely never will be.

 

The Route tree of each receiver, when said Route is complete, shows a lack of imagination.

No receiver is open, Allen scrambles, each receiver stands dormant because their Route is complete.

Come back to the QB for a completion, don’t end the route. The DB is likely behind you or to the side, a straight line back towards the QB will get you yardage.

 

This is coaching, this is Dabol. I’m convinced if we had a more seasoned OC that we would have won a couple games we lost.

The head scratching deep balls on third and three are mind boggling at best.

I believe Dabol is in over his head.

 

Usually, The best series for an offense is their first drive in both halves. They are scripted to take advantage of tendencies, but not ours.

Our first drives are mediocre at best.

Nope, not a fan of Dabol. He’s not using Allen correctly.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, dickleyjones said:

no need for quotes on the brain training, it's real.

 

I actually i think it is good brain training. he could have hit them, he should have hit them. and in the future i believe, he will hit them. but it is difficult to do if you do not practice it (and i mean practice in game).

 

The problem is teaching Allen to throw from a good platform under game pressure.  The pressure was so much, he reverted.  He needs to train his brain to only pull the trigger from a good platform (IMO).  The "brain training" in quotes aren't because I doubt the phenomenon of brain training, it's that I don't think the right kind of brain training was taking place under those conditions.  It's actually a subject I've delved into a lot in the context of another field of endeavor.  Essentially the predominant psychological thinking is that you learn to do something right much more effectively by slowing down until you can do it right, then speeding up as you gain proficiency, then by trying to do it at the correct speed and making the same mistake repeatedly.

But who knows?  Some people claim throwing motion can not be taught to change consistently at this level.  Allen has done more than I thought he would/could for the short and intermediate passes.

 

The Bills OL coach (TBN, paywall) and at least some of the OL have come out and shouldered a bunch of blame:

“My takeaway was this:” Johnson said, “Did we have our best performance? No. Did they provide some unique challenges schematically and personnel-wise? Yes. Are those schematic and personnel issues anything new or anything we haven’t seen before? No. There were some things where we flat-out didn’t perform at the level we had in prior games or to what our expectations are.”

 

Regarding Pittsburgh he said:

“Any team that has really good edge rushers will force one on ones,” Johnson said. “Even a team that has one good edge rusher will try to get that particular one on one. You anticipate that. You work at it. And here’s the thing: As much as you’d like to avoid it, that’s what their job is. You’re an NFL offensive lineman. Your job is to block. Your job is not to catch anything, it’s not to run the ball. Your job is to block. At some point in time you’re going to have to block a really good player in this league. When you’re asked to do it, you need to do it.”

 

That guy doesn't mince words.  But he also made it clear he's not trashing Ford:

“He’s growing every day,” Johnson said of Ford. “He’s a rookie. You can go into a game, and he can get a look where it’s the first time he’s had that look in an NFL game. That’s just the fact of the matter, whereas the other guys have probably seen it at some point. Cody has grown every day. Some games are a little bit harder for him than others for the simple fact is he’s a rookie. The thing about Cody is he’s tough, he works hard, he’s smart.”

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, dlonce said:

Not a fan of Dabol and likely never will be.

 

The Route tree of each receiver, when said Route is complete, shows a lack of imagination.

No receiver is open, Allen scrambles, each receiver stands dormant because their Route is complete.

Come back to the QB for a completion, don’t end the route. The DB is likely behind you or to the side, a straight line back towards the QB will get you yardage.

 

This is coaching, this is Dabol. I’m convinced if we had a more seasoned OC that we would have won a couple games we lost.

The head scratching deep balls on third and three are mind boggling at best.

I believe Dabol is in over his head.

 

Usually, The best series for an offense is their first drive in both halves. They are scripted to take advantage of tendencies, but not ours.

Our first drives are mediocre at best.

Nope, not a fan of Dabol. He’s not using Allen correctly.

 

This is actually not alway true.  I thought our WR continuing the route, either through designed secondary routes or through scramble drills, have improved a lot this year.  Is it perfect, no, but that takes time.

 

I think Daboll scripts the first couple drives in the first half (first 9-10 plays) to take advantage of the perceived weaknesses of the offense.  For example, he thought that we could exploit the Ravens deep and we could - the plays were there.  The problem is that when things don't go as planned and we don't execute, he waits to adjust, and when we're going 3-and-out sometimes that's too long.  I give him the first 2 drives but the 3rd was Killer. 

 

I think they're not trying to adjust because after those drives, there were glimpses of Allen just sitting on the sideline by himself looking a bit morose vs. huddled up with Barkley and Dorsey and a couple of Surface pads looking at what the Ravens were actually doing.  That says to me that they have a script they're gonna execute and don't bother looking at the Surface 'cuz we're set on what we're gonna do.

[dickleyjones]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The problem is teaching Allen to throw from a good platform under game pressure.  The pressure was so much, he reverted.  He needs to train his brain to only pull the trigger from a good platform (IMO).  The "brain training" in quotes aren't because I doubt the phenomenon of brain training, it's that I don't think the right kind of brain training was taking place under those conditions.  It's actually a subject I've delved into a lot in the context of another field of endeavor.  Essentially the predominant psychological thinking is that you learn to do something right much more effectively by slowing down until you can do it right, then speeding up as you gain proficiency, then by trying to do it at the correct speed and making the same mistake repeatedly.

But who knows?  Some people claim throwing motion can not be taught to change consistently at this level.  Allen has done more than I thought he would/could for the short and intermediate passes.

i think we mostly agree. yes slowing down and then speeding up helps. i have been learning to play drums lately, that's exactly how i do it.  and i'm getting better! however, nothing can prepare you for actually being on stage and playing. it definitely helps to practice before you get there. but the best way to be great on stage is to play on stage, lots (i.e. practice the real thing). there are aspects that cannot be duplicated in practice.

 

similarly, i'm sure that Allen is starting slow and gaining speed in scrimmage or drills or what have you. however nothing can truly mimic game situation and speed except a real game. you need real game practice. you need to throw the deep ball vs the blitz in a real game to get good at it. you may fail, but when you fail you get to evaluate yourself and see what you did wrong, go back to practice try to correct, then come back to a real game and give it a go again.

 

i think throwing motion can be taught to change, it just takes practice. Allen has already shown he can achieve this. he has a ways to go, which imo is quite exciting because if he can put it all together he's gonna be fantastic.

[BillsFan692]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:22 PM, Steptide said:

A little off topic but I thought the final play of the game to brown was terrible. I don't know if that play was going to brown no matter what, but Allen had zero pressure on that pass. They could've done something a little more creative there 

Not really how football works though. The Raven's had been hammering allen all day and there were many occasions through out the day when Allen's protection didn't quite hold up or a free runner came loose to plow him. 

By the time the last play of the game was called, all of that (And the turn over) was firmly in Allen's head. Which is exactly what a high pressure defense like the ravens run attempts to do. It speeds up the clock inside the QB's head and starts making them feel pressure (Even when it isn't there) especially to avoid turning the ball over. 

As fans, how upset would we have been if Allen held on to the ball and took a sack on that final play? He was trying to do the right thing by getting it out quickly. Yes in retrospect on this particular play his protection was holding up and he could have moved a little within the pocket and bought himself another half a second before releasing. Perhaps the extra time would have allowed him to see Bease coming open on the sidelines... alas, it was not to be. 

The Raven's won on the last play because of all the other plays before it when our offense was being manhandled at the LOS.

Of course Allen is to blame for that at least partially, he has to learn how to beat the blitz effectively in order to take pressure off of himself which is a common thread for bills QB's over the past 6 or 7 years.  At the same time, the OL holds some blame for being too weak at times. 

And lets not forget about that -awful- (and I mean terrible) route that Brown ran on the final play which got him no separation, no clean cuts and no fight to the ball.  So I mean, lots of blame to go around for what went wrong in that game as a whole and also what went wrong on the final play.

At that point we were only playing for a tie so who knows.

[FireChans]

6 hours ago, frostbitmic said:

When a team is getting blitz heavy there has to be a hot read or two on every pass.

 

Against the Ravens, I think going with 2 WR's on each side, one on each side running a short curl and Singletary running a wheel route out of the backfield would slow down the blitz.

 

I still don't understand why Daboll calls for the long pass in 30 MPH winds, especially when Josh is getting rushed heavily.

Because those plays resulted in college open receivers that Allen missed. 

[BigBobby]

Any OC who puts Frank Gore on the field in really any situation let alone a 1st and goal set of downs is a terrible OC.

 

When he does it again tomorrow and Frank Gore goes for -2 and we settle for a FG, I'm probably going to scream at the TV like I do every week.

[Steptide]

16 minutes ago, BigBobby said:

Any OC who puts Frank Gore on the field in really any situation let alone a 1st and goal set of downs is a terrible OC.

 

When he does it again tomorrow and Frank Gore goes for -2 and we settle for a FG, I'm probably going to scream at the TV like I do every week.

I'd rather see our fullback at the goaline than gore at this point. Only time I really wanna see gore is if we're burning clock 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 hours ago, Steptide said:

I'd rather see our fullback at the goaline than gore at this point. Only time I really wanna see gore is if we're burning clock 

 

When we're trying to burn clock, -2 or 2 for that matter doesn't get it done. 

[DJB]

Daboll playcalling again very poor tonight. 

 

That red zone of a draw, a run up the middle and the attempted Gore pass abysmal. 

 

Nesr the end of the game we could have avoided playing d again if we didn't just run Gore up the middle twice. Daboll does realize that first downs also kill the clock right?

 

Defense saved us tonight. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by DJB

[Sundancer]

On 12/14/2019 at 6:29 PM, BigBobby said:

 

 

When he does it again tomorrow and Frank Gore goes for -2 and we settle for a FG, I'm probably going to scream at the TV like I do every week.

 

Hmm.