THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Not There Yet

[Logic]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Courtland Sutton is a wide receiver

Yes. I'm well aware of that. The fact remains.

[Figster]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with what you say about those games but it doesn't mean Daboll has to go.  

 

I think Daboll is just like Allen - he is a guy growing into the job. It's just as easy to look at those games and conclude that Allen has to go.  Nobody is saying that.  Just like Allen, Daboll is going to get better at his job. Its disappointing that he isnt better right now, bu we just have to wait.

Developing / acclimating a young QB into the NFL comes with many uncertainties and challenges. 31 other teams trying to throw a monkey wrench into what you are trying to accomplish. The Josh Allen learning curve is at the nucleus of the process. Growing pains are to be expected.

 

I agree with you Shaw, Buffalo has a good coaching staff.  Continuity is the key to success.  

Edited December 14, 2019 by Figster

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Yes. I'm well aware of that. The fact remains.

So should we be worried that John Brown has a better passer rating than Allen?

[LSHMEAB]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:22 AM, Shaw66 said:

That's a discouraging thought, but I have to admit it's occurred to me.  

 

However, for the long term, I'm more optimistic about Daboll.   Unless he leaves for a head coaching job, I think he will get better.   

Head Coach? We talkin' High School?

 

Seems like there's been this chatter about Daboll landing a HC gig since his arrival and it's never made a whole lot of sense. I need to see him look like a competent OC before I consider, let alone fear the possibility that a team views him as the man.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Logic]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So should we be worried that John Brown has a better passer rating than Allen?

Nope.

But might be prudent to worry that a man who plays wide receiver by trade throws a more accurate deep ball than our starting quarterback.

And if you don't like the wide receiver example, how about David Blough? Am I at least allowed to find it mildly concerning that the Detroit Lions third string quarterback is better at completing deep balls than our first round franchise QB?

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, Logic said:

Nope.

But might be prudent to worry that a man who plays wide receiver by trade throws a more accurate deep ball than our starting quarterback.

And if you don't like the wide receiver example, how about David Blough? Am I at least allowed to find it mildly concerning that the Detroit Lions third string quarterback is better at completing deep balls than our first round franchise QB?

Where are you getting these statistics from?

[LSHMEAB]

44 minutes ago, Logic said:

Nope.

But might be prudent to worry that a man who plays wide receiver by trade throws a more accurate deep ball than our starting quarterback.

And if you don't like the wide receiver example, how about David Blough? Am I at least allowed to find it mildly concerning that the Detroit Lions third string quarterback is better at completing deep balls than our first round franchise QB?

It's almost impossible to have honest dialogue when it comes to JA. You've got one side hunkered down believing he's the worst QB of all time and one side that believes he walks on water.

[Meatloaf63]

15 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

There is no way they lose to the Jets at home.

I would die LOL ? 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

It's almost impossible to have honest dialogue when it comes to JA. You've got one side hunkered down believing he's the worst QB of all time and one side that believes he walks on water.

I believe he will be great. He's growing into it.  

[Gugny]

10 hours ago, Logic said:

Nope.

But might be prudent to worry that a man who plays wide receiver by trade throws a more accurate deep ball than our starting quarterback.

And if you don't like the wide receiver example, how about David Blough? Am I at least allowed to find it mildly concerning that the Detroit Lions third string quarterback is better at completing deep balls than our first round franchise QB?

 

Josh Allen is 11th in the NFL in Completed Air Yards.  Your mild concern should be with spouting out garbage, false information; not with comparing Allen to Blough.

 

Here's a link.  https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-completed-yards

 

Where's yours?

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Gugny

[Logic]

12 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Josh Allen is 11th in the NFL in Completed Air Yards.  Your mild concern should be with spouting out garbage, false information; not with comparing Allen to Blough.

 

Here's a link.  https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-completed-yards

 

Where's yours?

 

 

Thanks for the unnecessarily salty response.

We're talking about success on throws that travel 30 or more air yards. Showing me Allen's total completed air yards over the course of the season does not address the issue of how poorly he has done on long balls this season.
 

 

I guess I'll just wait here for your apology?

Edited December 15, 2019 by Logic

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

Thanks for the salt.

We're talking about success on throws that travel 30 or more air yards. Showing me Allen's total completed air yards over the course of the season does not address the issue of how poorly he has done on long balls this season.

 

No one is going to argue that Allen has struggled with the deep ball this season.

 

You got salt because you compared him to a QB who doesn't even register on any of the stats sites AND you didn't provide any statistics to back up your assertion.

 

Showing you Allen's average completed air yards provided you with statistical proof that he is throwing the ball farther in the air than the majority of other QBs in the NFL. 

 

 

[Logic]

5 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

No one is going to argue that Allen has struggled with the deep ball this season.

 

You got salt because you compared him to a QB who doesn't even register on any of the stats sites AND you didn't provide any statistics to back up your assertion.

 

Showing you Allen's average completed air yards provided you with statistical proof that he is throwing the ball farther in the air than the majority of other QBs in the NFL. 

 

 

Okay, well I have since provided the article from which I pulled my quote. It is not "garbage", "False information", or "fake news". So I'm sure you're sorry you pulled out all that heavy language, right?

The article, by the way, backs up my claim that Josh Allen is 51st in the league in throw success over 30 air yards.

Moreover, I support and root for Josh Allen, but I'm getting the feeling you're one of those people who get snappy and defensive any time someone says ANYTHING negative about him.

It's okay to root for Josh Allen to succeed and to like him a lot but to ALSO point out that there are some areas where he's struggling. It's not sacrilege, it's just reality.
 

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, Logic said:

Okay, well I have since provided the article from which I pulled my quote. It is not "garbage", "False information", or "fake news". So I'm sure you're sorry you pulled out all that heavy language, right?

The article, by the way, backs up my claim that Josh Allen is 51st in the league in throw success over 30 air yards.

Moreover, I support and root for Josh Allen, but I'm getting the feeling you're one of those people who get snappy and defensive any time someone says ANYTHING negative about him.

It's okay to root for Josh Allen to succeed and to like him a lot but to ALSO point out that there are some areas where he's struggling. It's not sacrilege, it's just reality.
 

Meh.. Im not too concerned about this.  Not saying he doesn't have to do better.  He does.  I think he will.  Josh is currently 4th in completions converting for firsts on 3rd and long(8+yards to go.)  Ill take that over a deep ball here and there.  Josh, and I can't find this stat right now for some reason but found it around the Dallas game... was one of the best QBs throwing 10-20 yards.  Ill take that over a 30+ yard ball that only happens a couple times a game at best.

 

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't need to complete these more often.  I am simply pointing out that the chain movers and the more important things he was kind of exceling at this year.

 

I know a lot of people think that because he can't hit these 30+ yarders that teams will blitz and cover 0 all the time.  To that I say that there are other ways to beat that.  There also aren't a lot of teams good enough to play man defense across the board.  That is kind of a requirement to playing cover 0.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Scott7975

[Logic]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

Meh.. Im not too concerned about this.  Not saying he doesn't have to do better.  He does.  I think he will.  Josh is currently 4th in completions converting for firsts on 3rd and long.  Ill take that over a deep ball here and there.  Josh, and I can't find this stat right now for some reason but found it around the Dallas game... was one of the best QBs throwing 10-20 yards.  Ill take that over a 30+ yard ball that only happens a couple times a game at best.

 

Again, I'm not saying he doesn't need to complete these more often.  I am simply pointing out that the chain movers and the more important things he was kind of exceling at this year.

I'm in agreement for the most part.

I don't need him to be a top 5 or even top 10 deep ball thrower. I just need him to be able to do it often enough to keep opposing defenses from attacking him the way the Ravens did. We saw during the Fitzpatrick/Gailey years how limited an offense eventually becomes when a quarterback can't punish a defense deep and they are then able to squat on the short stuff and tee off on the QB. I just need Allen to show that he CAN do it from time to time.

Otherwise, you're right, there are many, many more important aspects to being a quality QB, and Josh Allen does a lot of them well.

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, Logic said:

I'm in agreement for the most part.

I don't need him to be a top 5 or even top 10 deep ball thrower. I just need him to be able to do it often enough to keep opposing defenses from attacking him the way the Ravens did. We saw during the Fitzpatrick/Gailey years how limited an offense eventually becomes when a quarterback can't punish a defense deep and they are then able to squat on the short stuff and tee off on the QB. I just need Allen to show that he CAN do it from time to time.

Otherwise, you're right, there are many, many more important aspects to being a quality QB, and Josh Allen does a lot of them well.

I agree.  I think and hope he gets better at this too.

[Gugny]

29 minutes ago, Logic said:

Okay, well I have since provided the article from which I pulled my quote. It is not "garbage", "False information", or "fake news". So I'm sure you're sorry you pulled out all that heavy language, right?

The article, by the way, backs up my claim that Josh Allen is 51st in the league in throw success over 30 air yards.

Moreover, I support and root for Josh Allen, but I'm getting the feeling you're one of those people who get snappy and defensive any time someone says ANYTHING negative about him.

It's okay to root for Josh Allen to succeed and to like him a lot but to ALSO point out that there are some areas where he's struggling. It's not sacrilege, it's just reality.
 

 

It's stupid (not you) to compare a QB who's been starting nearly all season to some backup who's nailed a couple long balls.

 

Like I said .. no one's going to argue that long ball accuracy is a weakness for Josh Allen.  But saying, "Blough is better at it," or "Allen is 51st in the league," is purely asinine (again ... I'm referring to the article - not you).

 

It's crap logic (no pun intended).  

 

It's like saying Duck Hodges is a more accurate passer than Brady, Mahomes and Wilson because his completion percentage is 71% and they're all under 70%.

 

It's dumb.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

It's stupid (not you) to compare a QB who's been starting nearly all season to some backup who's nailed a couple long balls.

 

Like I said .. no one's going to argue that long ball accuracy is a weakness for Josh Allen.  But saying, "Blough is better at it," or "Allen is 51st in the league," is purely asinine (again ... I'm referring to the article - not you).

 

It's crap logic (no pun intended).  

 

It's like saying Duck Hodges is a more accurate passer than Brady, Mahomes and Wilson because his completion percentage is 71% and they're all under 70%.

 

It's dumb.

I also don’t think it’s accurate. I assume by the guys tweet he was counting the TD to Brown as the 1/22 completed but I’m pretty sure he’s had more than one completion 30+ yards...one was against Bengals I think.

 

Furthermore...’passing yards on passes that travel more than 30 yards in the air’ is a very, very weird statistic. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

It's stupid (not you) to compare a QB who's been starting nearly all season to some backup who's nailed a couple long balls.

 

Like I said .. no one's going to argue that long ball accuracy is a weakness for Josh Allen.  But saying, "Blough is better at it," or "Allen is 51st in the league," is purely asinine (again ... I'm referring to the article - not you).

 

It's crap logic (no pun intended).  

 

It's like saying Duck Hodges is a more accurate passer than Brady, Mahomes and Wilson because his completion percentage is 71% and they're all under 70%.

 

It's dumb.

I have to admit, when I've gotten into discussions like this one you're in, I sometimes have taken your position.   Data that isn't statistically significant isn't helpful if you're trying to prove something conclusively.  However, I've mellowed some, or tried to get out of those intense conversations.   I think that in general give and take conversations about a player or team, interesting comparisons can still be interesting without necessarily trying to prove the point.   

 

Especially, in this case, where you guys are talking about a young QB who clearly isn't a finished product, professionally,  who hasn't had a particularly good collection of deep receivers and very little continuity with the receivers he has had, who's played a lot of games in the wind this season, I don't think any reasonable conclusions can be drawn about Allen's ability to throw the deep ball.  

 

For me, the question is whether I'm happy with where Allen is in this point of his career, looking at the whole picture.  I'm very happy.  If what we've been seeing week to week is all that we're going to get from Allen, he will have failed.   I think we're going to see a lot more.