THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - Not There Yet

[Shaw66]

13 minutes ago, Buffarukus said:

shaw did they replay the defensive holding on star? im still looking for a reason a dt would defensively hold on a running play. at the same time hughs got a personal foul...i think for mouthing off to whoever called that bummed penalty.

 

im not blaming the loss on that sequence but it resulted in the first td. all together the refs were all over the place. that seems like the NFL today. you see a dt hold but miss 12 guys in a huddle? it continued on into all the other games that afternoon. 

 

just wondering if the stadium got a replay because the broadcast sure didnt. hoping someone with all 22 can explain maybe.

 

 usual. thnx for the read.

 

 

 

I didn't see a replay of it.   During one of the games, late Sunday night or last night, the announcers said that the refs are making that call more often.  They said that what teams have been doing is telling the tackle who gets double teamed to try to hold up both blockers so they can't slide off and block at the second level.  So the refs have been looking for that holding and calling it more often in the past few weeks.  

 

Whether it actually was holding, who knows.  The officials call what they think they see, but sometimes there's actually nothing there.   

[billsintaiwan]

On 12/10/2019 at 1:35 AM, Casey D said:

I disagree that the difference between Jackson and Allen "made all the difference in the game."  Jackson was as pedestrian as Allen yesterday.  Outside of the pass to Hurst, Jackson threw for 84 yards (145 total), Allen for 146 total.  Jackson did little with his legs.  A great play by the corner on Brown at the end of the game was the difference between a flat out tie, as well as the defensive breakdown on the Hurst play.

 

It was two heavyweights playing yesterday and exchanging punches, and we just came up short.  It was not all on Allen, nor did Jackson outplay him overall.  It was a team loss against a very good team.  Move on and get into the playoffs and who cares.  This is not our year to bring home the Lombardi.  The window is just opening on that.  But I hope we get a rematch in the playoffs this year against the Ravens, that would be fun to watch.

You're right that it didn't come down to Allen v. Jackson. But Jackson hit the big pass and Allen didn't. I love Allen and I think, despite the evidence so far, that he will start hitting brown and foster when they have a step on their defender.

 

I also agree that we are a year away. Give Allen a true number one with size, speed, and catch radius and I think he will absolutely shine. And I reckon we get that guy in the draft this year. Team should be fun to watch for years to come.

[Shaw66]

21 minutes ago, billsintaiwan said:

You're right that it didn't come down to Allen v. Jackson. But Jackson hit the big pass and Allen didn't. I love Allen and I think, despite the evidence so far, that he will start hitting brown and foster when they have a step on their defender.

 

I also agree that we are a year away. Give Allen a true number one with size, speed, and catch radius and I think he will absolutely shine. And I reckon we get that guy in the draft this year. Team should be fun to watch for years to come.

I said earlier in the thread that I think it was all about Allen and Jackson.  Jackson dictated the kind of defense the Bills had to play, but the Ravens dictated to Allen.   The Ravens stacked the line of scrimmage, took away the run and forced Allen to get rid of the ball quickly.  Either because Allen couldn't do it or because Daboll didn't adjust properly, they stopped the Bills offense.  

 

It is true, of course, that if you take away one play the game's tied.  

 

The further I get from the game, the more amazing the two defenses seem to me.  They stuffed both offenses.  

[SactoBillFan]

Two turnovers the Ravens cashed in and the Bills didn't made a difference IMO

[Scott7975]

On 12/10/2019 at 9:06 PM, billsintaiwan said:

You're right that it didn't come down to Allen v. Jackson. But Jackson hit the big pass and Allen didn't. I love Allen and I think, despite the evidence so far, that he will start hitting brown and foster when they have a step on their defender.

 

I also agree that we are a year away. Give Allen a true number one with size, speed, and catch radius and I think he will absolutely shine. And I reckon we get that guy in the draft this year. Team should be fun to watch for years to come.

Jackson hit a 17 yard pass as his biggest pass.  The rest was YAC.  In fact Lamar only attempted 2 passes that traveled beyond 17/18 yards.  Both incompletions.  Allen hit a 22 yard pass and although he did miss a few open passes downfield he also had some big gainers dropped.

 

Also people keep talking about how defenses know Allen cant hit the long ball so they just blitz him.  Lamar has completed just 1 pass over 22 yards since week 3. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scott7975

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Jackson hit a 17 yard pass as his biggest pass.  The rest was YAC.  In fact Lamar only attempted 2 passes that traveled beyond 17/18 yards.  Both incompletions.  Allen hit a 22 yard pass and although he did miss a few open passes downfield he also had some big gainers dropped.

 

Also people keep talking about how defenses know Allen cant hit the long ball so they just blitz him.  Lamar has completed just 1 pass over 22 yards since week 3. 

Defend Allen all you want, and minimize what Jackson did all you want, but answer me this:  Which quarterback exploited a defensive breakdown to get the touchdown that was the difference in the game?   I'll answer it.  Jackson.

 

Which quarterback kept drives alive running the ball?   Which quarterback kept drives alive by avoiding sacks?

 

It's just foolish to think that the difference in the QBs was not the difference in the game.  

[Scott7975]

51 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Defend Allen all you want, and minimize what Jackson did all you want, but answer me this:  Which quarterback exploited a defensive breakdown to get the touchdown that was the difference in the game?   I'll answer it.  Jackson.

 

Which quarterback kept drives alive running the ball?   Which quarterback kept drives alive by avoiding sacks?

 

It's just foolish to think that the difference in the QBs was not the difference in the game.  

I have a difference of opinion about this game. I agree that Lamar deserves mvp conversations and Allen does not. In this particular game I feel they both played equally bad against equally stout defenses.
The difference of the game for me was a blown coverage on a 17 yard pass taken to the house and giving Lamar practically first and goal off a fumble. I don’t believe Jackson would have driven the field for that score. Not the way the game was played. 
 

jackson avoided sacks. He had nowhere near the jailbreak troubles Josh has all game long. Allen played crappy. Jackson played crappy. The difference to me was one turnover in the red zone and Poyer messing up one play. 
 

also our offense as a whole was out of synch. From the online getting blown up to receivers dropping balls. That is a difference as well. Not just josh vs Lamar. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scott7975

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

The difference of the game for me was a blown coverage on a 17 yard pass taken to the house and giving Lamar practically first and goal off a fumble. I don’t believe Jackson would have driven the field for that score. Not the way the game was played. 
 

 

Allen threw 14 more incomplete passes than Jackson.   I don't think he had 14 throw aways.   

 

Look at their passer ratings;  102 vs. 62.  

[Scott7975]

32 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Allen threw 14 more incomplete passes than Jackson.   I don't think he had 14 throw aways.   

 

Look at their passer ratings;  102 vs. 62.  

we lost by 7 points. The Ravens were almost given 14 free points with the busted coverage on one play and the free little school yard flip after the fumble. 

[Scott7975]

Let’s look at the scoring drives

 

Baltimore 27 yards, 15 yards, 75 yards(61 yards of this came on one busted play. Pass was 17 air yards,) 36 yards.
 

Not once did Lamar and his offense have to drive the field for a score. Any time he had to drive the field, outside the busted play, they punted or he threw an int. 
 

I don’t believe the difference was QB. 
 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

Let’s look at the scoring drives

 

Baltimore 27 yards, 15 yards, 75 yards(61 yards of this came on one busted play. Pass was 17 air yards,) 36 yards.
 

Not once did Lamar and his offense have to drive the field for a score. Any time he had to drive the field, outside the busted play, they punted or he threw an int. 
 

I don’t believe the difference was QB. 
 

 

On Tuesday morning, Lamar Jackson and his OC are looking at film of the Bills game.   On how many plays does Lamar wish he had a do over?    Three or five, including the INT.  

 

On Tuesday morning, Josh Allen and his OC are looking at film of the Ravens game.  On how many plays does Allen wish he had a do over?   Probably about 15.   

 

The game is about making the right decision and executing.   Jackson outplayed Allen.  

[Chaos]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Defend Allen all you want, and minimize what Jackson did all you want, but answer me this:  Which quarterback exploited a defensive breakdown to get the touchdown that was the difference in the game?   I'll answer it.  Jackson.

 

Which quarterback kept drives alive running the ball?   Which quarterback kept drives alive by avoiding sacks?

 

It's just foolish to think that the difference in the QBs was not the difference in the game.  

Or you are giving Jackson credit for something that was a team effort. One score game. McDermott does the correct thing and challenges the PI call that went uncalled, maybe the Bills win the game, and the whole QB narrative for the game collapses.    It appears to me that the Ravens exploit Jackson's strengths.  And the Bills want to mold Allen into something they think is is longer lasting.   I am not minimizing to minimize jackson.  But I think he has at least 2x the offensive talent around him (line particularly) and a much more effective OC this last week. 

[Scott7975]

35 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

On Tuesday morning, Lamar Jackson and his OC are looking at film of the Bills game.   On how many plays does Lamar wish he had a do over?    Three or five, including the INT.  

 

On Tuesday morning, Josh Allen and his OC are looking at film of the Ravens game.  On how many plays does Allen wish he had a do over?   Probably about 15.   

 

The game is about making the right decision and executing.   Jackson outplayed Allen.  

 

Now you are just making stuff up.  Shaw, I completely respect you.  I love reading your threads every week after the game.  I'm sorry though.  I have to disagree with you on this one.  Especially when you start making stuff up as an argument.

 

Jackson only wants 3-5 plays back including the INT.

 

Here are the non TD drives...

 

1. 6 plays 35 yards punt

2. drive start buff 45. 8 plays 27 yards (Jackson accounted for 7 of those yards) FG

3. 3 plays -6 yards punt

4. 3 plays INT

5. 3 plays 4 yards punt

6. 5 plays 17 yards punt

7. 3 plays 9 yards punt

8. 3 plays 7 yards punt

 

TD scoring drive.

 

1. Drive start 24 yard line. 5 plays 15 yards TD.  That was a gimme off a fumble.  

2.  3 plays 75 yards.  This was another gimme off a busted play. 17 air yards to a guy open by more than 5 yards right in the middle field of vision.  Does not get any easier than this.

3.  Drive start Ravens 49 yard line. 9 plays.  Lamar had a 7 yard pass, a 10 yard run, and a 4 yard TD pass ( this pass was very good though)

 

Lamar only wants 3-5 plays back? right. Lamar didn't do jack squat.  If you want to say he outplayed Allen.  That's fine.  He hit 1 busted pass that Allen didn't so he outplayed him.  He still played just as bad.

 

If I were Lamar I wouldn't be all ho hum I outplayed Allen.  If I were either of these QBs I would be asking myself how can I do better if we face each other in the playoffs.   Because they both played bad against great defenses.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scott7975

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Now you are just making stuff up.  Shaw, I completely respect you.  I love reading your threads every week after the game.  I'm sorry though.  I have to disagree with you on this one.  Especially when you start making stuff up as an argument.

 

Jackson only wants 3-5 plays back including the INT.

 

Here are the non TD drives...

 

1. 6 plays 35 yards punt

2. drive start buff 45. 8 plays 27 yards (Jackson accounted for 7 of those yards) FG

3. 3 plays -6 yards punt

4. 3 plays INT

5. 3 plays 4 yards punt

6. 5 plays 17 yards punt

7. 3 plays 9 yards punt

8. 3 plays 7 yards punt

 

TD scoring drive.

 

1. Drive start 24 yard line. 5 plays 15 yards TD.  That was a gimme off a fumble.  

2.  3 plays 75 yards.  This was another gimme off a busted play. 17 air yards to a guy open by more than 5 yards right in the middle field of vision.  Does not get any easier than this.

3.  Drive start Ravens 49 yard line. 9 plays.  Lamar had a 7 yard pass, a 10 yard run, and a 4 yard TD pass ( this pass was very good though)

 

Lamar only wants 3-5 plays back? right. Lamar didn't do jack squat.  If you want to say he outplayed Allen.  That's fine.  He hit 1 busted pass that Allen didn't so he outplayed him.  He still played just as bad.

 

If I were Lamar I wouldn't be all ho hum I outplayed Allen.  If I were either of these QBs I would be asking myself how can I do better if we face each other in the playoffs.   Because they both played bad against great defenses.

You miss the point.   Yes, both offenses struggled.  But the Ravens offense didn't struggle because Jackson failed to execute.   Jackson completed 64% of his passes, threw 3 TD passes and ran for 30 yards.   He misfired on only a half dozen passes.   

 

Allen, on the other hand, missed on a lot of his passes, and he got sacked six times.  

 

I was talking about plays that the players want back because of their personal performance.  Jackson didn't have many - he executed the plays as drawn up, completed the passes, made the runs.   Allen didn't.  If Allen completed 64% of HIS passes, the Bills would have won.   

[GoBills808]

On 12/10/2019 at 3:02 PM, Buffarukus said:

shaw did they replay the defensive holding on star? im still looking for a reason a dt would defensively hold on a running play. at the same time hughs got a personal foul...i think for mouthing off to whoever called that bummed penalty.

 

im not blaming the loss on that sequence but it resulted in the first td. all together the refs were all over the place. that seems like the NFL today. you see a dt hold but miss 12 guys in a huddle? it continued on into all the other games that afternoon. 

 

just wondering if the stadium got a replay because the broadcast sure didnt. hoping someone with all 22 can explain maybe.

 

good write up as usual. thnx for the read.

 

 

 

Here's the video of the holding call-

 

Very, very questionable call, especially considering they are totally inconsistent in calling it, because later Lotulelei does the exact same thing here with no call (bottom video)-

 

 

[CorkScrewHill]

Really nice review of the game by Chris Simms .. he is very balanced and was very insightful. Note 20 minutes long.

 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

You miss the point.   Yes, both offenses struggled.  But the Ravens offense didn't struggle because Jackson failed to execute.   Jackson completed 64% of his passes, threw 3 TD passes and ran for 30 yards.   He misfired on only a half dozen passes.   

 

Allen, on the other hand, missed on a lot of his passes, and he got sacked six times.  

 

I was talking about plays that the players want back because of their personal performance.  Jackson didn't have many - he executed the plays as drawn up, completed the passes, made the runs.   Allen didn't.  If Allen completed 64% of HIS passes, the Bills would have won.   

 

How many balls did the Ravens receivers drop that hit them right in the hands?  Josh had at least 3 - 4 downfield throws dropped.  Who knows what happens if they catch even one of those because at least 2 of them were drive killers.  Did McKenzie drop a TD pass?  I never seen a replay off it so couldn't tell if it was defended or he dropped a ball in his hands.  How many times did Lamars oline allow jailbreaks right up the middle on the snap as well as no edge escape routes?  Allen had many.

 

You miss the point that offensive production is not entirely on the quarterback.  There is plenty of blame to go around on our offense.  Also to completion%.  It helps greatly when you throw a screen pass to the LoS and it goes for yardage as opposed to being stopped instantly or having to be thrown in the dirt because it wasn't there to be executed from the get go.  Its also a field position game in a game like this.  Ravens had the better field position for most of the game by a mile.  It wasn't because Lamar was moving the ball and flipping the field.

 

I'll just agree to disagree with you and call it good.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Scott7975

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, CorkScrewHill said:

Really nice review of the game by Chris Simms .. he is very balanced and was very insightful. Note 20 minutes long.

 

I didn't realize Simms was so inarticulate.   He's stumbling all over himself.  

 

Still, his explanation of the long-TD is interesting and understandable.    Also, he's really clear that Baltimore had no respect for the Bills' receivers.   

 

And he loves the Bills D.   

[Buffarukus]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Here's the video of the holding call-

 

Very, very questionable call, especially considering they are totally inconsistent in calling it, because later Lotulelei does the exact same thing here with no call (bottom video)-

 

 

 

thanks! yeah i was expecting to see a big reach grab to stop a guy from getting to the lbs..if anything. thats basically a get the f off me hip throw pancake. hands were basically inside and the play wasnt anywhere near em but ref sees guy flop to the ground so must throw the flag

 

 i guess you just have to let them block you! if your strong enough to toss them to the side try and do it so they dont fall...complete bs imo. 

 

if shaws right and they are told to look for THAT. the games truly degraded to pity pat tag football.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Buffarukus said:

 

thanks! yeah i was expecting to see a big reach grab to stop a guy from getting to the lbs..if anything. thats basically a get the f off me hip throw pancake. hands were basically inside and the play wasnt anywhere near em but ref sees guy flop to the ground so must throw the flag

 

 i guess you just have to let them block you! if your strong enough to toss them to the side try and do it so they dont fall...complete bs imo. 

 

if shaws right and they are told to look for THAT. the games truly degraded to pity pat tag football.

If you look at the second play it's the exact same thing and no flag