GoBills808 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Mango said: I listed a bunch of reasons why LJ isn't being judged the same way as Josh. You chose just one....And yes throwing 3 TD's against 1 turn over in a win, will garner you less criticism than 1 TD and 1 turn over. I am unsure if you actually don't understand that or just don't want to except it. Just list some ones that are actually relevant to the discussion. I'm sorry I don't consider QBWINZ, 3 tds on busted coverage and shovel passes inside the 5, and 'other moments before in the season' (lol are you serious) as some great basis for justifying the immense gap you see in their performances, respectively, yesterday.
Mango Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Give me a break. My point is that every QB had a very bad game. Allen’s bad game is certainly comparable to Deshawn Watson, but I don’t see Texan fans says “Watson sucks” I mean, did you read what he was quoting. Feels like this board is more mellow about criticism of JA after this loss. I suspect it is because the last few weeks have been much better. That said, Watson has had more moments where he has played much better than JA. He also has a larger sample size. Allen has had more moments where he has looked much worse than Watson. Hopefully that is the answer you were looking for. 1
Reed83HOF Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) Edited December 9, 2019 by Reed83HOF 5
GoBills808 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, VW82 said: True. Josh could have had some excellent YAC as well on some coverages we beat but he missed those throws. He was also playing at home whereas Lamar was playing on the road in a difficult environment, and without his top target for the majority of the game. He could also have had 3 more tds and lots more yards and YAC if our receivers had caught some of his passes.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 14 minutes ago, VW82 said: Are we not counting all the sacks Josh gave up? He had 105 net passing yards compared to 139 for Lamar. Counting runs, Josh had 114 total yards on 41 drop backs for 2.78 yards per play. Lamar had 179 total yards on 36 drop backs for 4.97 yards per play. No narrative, just numbers. I didn't use any adjectives to qualify how much he got outplayed. I just said he got outplayed. I didn't lie about anything. This is as intellectually dishonest as it gets and points to a complete lack of credibility on your part.
Mango Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: Just list some ones that are actually relevant to the discussion. I'm sorry I don't consider QBWINZ, 3 tds on busted coverage and shovel passes inside the 5, and 'other moments before in the season' (lol are you serious) as some great basis for justifying the immense gap you see in their performances, respectively, yesterday. The original question I responded to was about why people aren't flaming over Lamar's 3 TD day, in an offense that begins and ends with his production both through the air and on the ground. If you think its stupid or some media conspiracy for fake news, go right ahead, but that is why Lamar isn't being ripped apart for a single INT yesterday. You don't have to like it, but that is why.
Chandler#81 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 21 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Give me a break. My point is that every QB had a very bad game. Allen’s bad game is certainly comparable to Deshawn Watson, but I don’t see Texan fans says “Watson sucks” I’m completely dejected you feel empowered to start threads again. But, Hey! It’s not completely moronic. There’s hope.
VW82 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, K-9 said: This is as intellectually dishonest as it gets and points to a complete lack of credibility on your part. How so? Sacks are plays too. We gave up some bad ones. 7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: He could also have had 3 more tds and lots more yards and YAC if our receivers had caught some of his passes. I posted this earlier in the thread but officially we got credited with only three drops. Can't say I agree with that but those are the numbers. I agree our receivers need to take some blame as does Daboll. Josh isn't solely at fault here, but he is at fault.
GoBills808 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, VW82 said: How so? Sacks are plays too. We gave up some bad ones. I posted this earlier in the thread but officially we got credited with only three drops. Can't say I agree with that but those are the numbers. I agree our receivers need to take some blame as does Daboll. Josh isn't solely at fault here, but he is at fault. Yes and I am not saying Allen played well because he did not imo.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, VW82 said: How so? Sacks are plays too. We gave up some bad ones. Key word being “we.” Why do you suppose net passing yardage is a TEAM stat? Citing that statistic as proof that one QB was better than another is bull crap. You’d be better off just saying that Jackson made a couple more plays than Allen, was the better QB yesterday, and simply letting it go at that.
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: Like many, I was really disappointed by a bad performance by Josh Allen. I also was very annoyed to find many excuses to mask what was clearly a below average QB performance. But here is the thing, Baltimore’s defense has been playing really well this season - specifically their pass defense. While the offenses has been hyped to epic proportions by the media, the defense flies slightly under the radar. Not unlike Buffalo, their secondary is very good. In Baltimore’s 9 game win streak here is how opposing QB’s performed vs Baltimore: Andy Dalton 21/39 239 yards 0 TD/1 INT Loss 23-17 Russell Wilson 20/41 241 yards 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 30-16 Tom Brady 30-46 285 yards 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 37-20 Ryan Finley 16-31 167 yards. 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 49-13 Deshaun Watson 18-29 169 yards. 0 TD/1 INT LOSS 41-7 Jared Goff 26-37 212 yards 0 TD/2 INT LOSS 45-6 Jimmy Garoppolo 15-21 165 yards 1 TD/1 INT Loss 20-17 Josh Allen 17-39 146 1 TD/0 INT Loss 24-17 So again, I’m not going to give Allen a pass. He was below average and an average QB performance probably wins this football game. Of course their were protection issues and dropped passes but we need to see more from Josh - especially on those deep passes that he can’t connect. But outside of Wilson and Brady (2 HOF QB’s), I’m not sure that any of the other QB performances vs. the Ravens wins this football game. Opposing QB’s have not really put up many yards against the secondary, including several “good” offenses who had opportunities to get garbage time yards. In fact, Allen’s bad performance is close to how poorly other QB’s have performed - really bad! So It’s quite possible that Sunday’s game was simply Allen struggling against a well-coaches, aggressive defense, with 2 very good corners. It was frustrating to see our “franchise QB” play so poorly, but I also don’t think one game is enough of a sample size to overreact. Get thee hence, voice of reason! No place for you here . Thanks OP, well said...
VW82 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, K-9 said: Key word being “we.” Why do you suppose net passing yardage is a TEAM stat? Citing that statistic as proof that one QB was better than another is bull crap. You’d be better off just saying that Jackson made a couple more plays than Allen, was the better QB yesterday, and simply letting it go at that. Agree to disagree. If we're not going to include things like sacks then what's the point of using any stats? Completed passes, incompletions, net yards, they're all team stats. They all require play design, blocking, route running, reading the defense, etc. I think it's perfectly fine to use stats to help illustrate an argument, as long as they're not the sole argument. In this case, when you look at the way we failed to counter their blitz by finding hot routes, connecting on deep passes, adjusting protections, etc. (i.e. areas where the QB has a large influence) vs. the way they handled our pressure with their run game which included Lamar's RPO runs and scrambles, plus the key plays where Lamar came through to finish off drives, and you put all that into context with the offensive stats of both players, the picture becomes clearer as to who was the better player Sunday. Edited December 9, 2019 by VW82
298Woody Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 4 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: Like many, I was really disappointed by a bad performance by Josh Allen. I also was very annoyed to find many excuses to mask what was clearly a below average QB performance. But here is the thing, Baltimore’s defense has been playing really well this season - specifically their pass defense. While the offenses has been hyped to epic proportions by the media, the defense flies slightly under the radar. Not unlike Buffalo, their secondary is very good. In Baltimore’s 9 game win streak here is how opposing QB’s performed vs Baltimore: Andy Dalton 21/39 239 yards 0 TD/1 INT Loss 23-17 Russell Wilson 20/41 241 yards 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 30-16 Tom Brady 30-46 285 yards 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 37-20 Ryan Finley 16-31 167 yards. 1 TD/1 INT LOSS 49-13 Deshaun Watson 18-29 169 yards. 0 TD/1 INT LOSS 41-7 Jared Goff 26-37 212 yards 0 TD/2 INT LOSS 45-6 Jimmy Garoppolo 15-21 165 yards 1 TD/1 INT Loss 20-17 Josh Allen 17-39 146 1 TD/0 INT Loss 24-17 So again, I’m not going to give Allen a pass. He was below average and an average QB performance probably wins this football game. Of course their were protection issues and dropped passes but we need to see more from Josh - especially on those deep passes that he can’t connect. But outside of Wilson and Brady (2 HOF QB’s), I’m not sure that any of the other QB performances vs. the Ravens wins this football game. Opposing QB’s have not really put up many yards against the secondary, including several “good” offenses who had opportunities to get garbage time yards. In fact, Allen’s bad performance is close to how poorly other QB’s have performed - really bad! So It’s quite possible that Sunday’s game was simply Allen struggling against a well-coaches, aggressive defense, with 2 very good corners. It was frustrating to see our “franchise QB” play so poorly, but I also don’t think one game is enough of a sample size to overreact. The part that bothered me about his poor performance was old habits creeping back causing three and outs because he is looking downfield all of the time and not going for first downs but touchdowns. The hero mentality is both good and bad. The worst part is he is throwing long balls that he is terrible on a good day let alone in 30 MPH winds. His long throws should be shelved until next year. He needs work on that. He's young and smart and will be fine.
jrober38 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 32 minutes ago, Mango said: I mean, did you read what he was quoting. Feels like this board is more mellow about criticism of JA after this loss. I suspect it is because the last few weeks have been much better. That said, Watson has had more moments where he has played much better than JA. He also has a larger sample size. Allen has had more moments where he has looked much worse than Watson. Hopefully that is the answer you were looking for. You're not allowed to criticize Josh Allen after he has horrible games. There are people here who think Josh Allen is a better QB than Deshaun Watson.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I counted three drops - one by Beasley on a deep-ish throw, one by Knox that should have been an easy first down, and one by Singletary at the LOS that probably wouldn't have gone for much. Singletary 8 targets, 6 receptions, one clear drop another that hit his hand (would have been a high DOD catch but again - other guys around the league make those). Call it 6/8, 75%. Singletary made yards out of similar plays to that "wouldn't have gone for much". McKensie 5 targets, 3 receptions. 1 underthrown low. 1 on target in the EZ, but defended (McKensie might have been ruled out - looked like his L knee might have been on the white line at the side of the EZ. Call it 4 catchable balls, 3 receptions, 75%. Beasley 7 targets, 4 receptions. 1 ball tipped at line and not catchable. 6 were catchable balls. One through his hands, might not score as a drop but def. catchable. 4/6, 67%. Brown 8/3 on paper. He had 2 clear overthrows, a third that a bigger WR or one who jumps and takes the hit might have made. So 2 catchable balls that he didn't haul in (they were defensed, not drops, but we see top WR elsewhere catch those). Call it 5 catchable balls (2 high DOD that aren't drops but other #1 WR make those), 3 receptions, 60%. Knox had the drop you mention, also had a ball hit him in the hands in the EZ for a touch (Possible I might change my mind after coaches film) - 4 targets, 3 catchable balls, 1 catch. 33%. No bueno. Taken across the receiving corps, 5 more receptions that were catchable balls that would make yards, and the game looks different. Josh made poor decisions IMO a number of times, especially early in the game. He took deep shots too much when he should have gone for moving the chains. For example on the play to McKenzie that was underthrown while Allen was under pressure, he had Gore for a dump off on the L behind the LOS. Gore had space and could likely have trucked for a few yards if nothing else, if he made a guy miss maybe more. He had Beasley on the R side for 3 yds. So he passed them up going for a tough play near the 1st down marker, and now it's 2nd and 10 in stead of 2nd and 5 or 2nd and 7. I don't know how Allen was being coached. Maybe it was over-emphasized to him to not check down, to go for "chunk plays". If so, that's mistaken coaching emphasis IMO. 1
GoBills808 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Mango said: The original question I responded to was about why people aren't flaming over Lamar's 3 TD day, in an offense that begins and ends with his production both through the air and on the ground. If you think its stupid or some media conspiracy for fake news, go right ahead, but that is why Lamar isn't being ripped apart for a single INT yesterday. You don't have to like it, but that is why. Clinging to his '3TDs' is really all you have to justify why his performance was somehow so superior to Allen's. My original question dealt with why there would be such a discrepancy in how their respective performances Sunday are viewed, but judging by the excuses for Jackson and the criticism of Allen it's rhetorical anyhow.
Jerome007 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 It was at the same time a frustrating day for the offense but bodes well for the future. Allen won't start all those games that inaccurate, and the receivers won't always have those many drops, and mostly, that was a crash course on how to pick up blitzes, just in time for the Steelers.
John from Riverside Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, VW82 said: Are we not counting all the sacks Josh gave up? He had 105 net passing yards compared to 139 for Lamar. Counting runs, Josh had 114 total yards on 41 drop backs for 2.78 yards per play. Lamar had 179 total yards on 36 drop backs for 4.97 yards per play. No narrative, just numbers. I didn't use any adjectives to qualify how much he got outplayed. I just said he got outplayed. I didn't lie about anything. Too bad it is not as simple as all that Everything aspect of the Ravens played better yesterday......yet on Josh Allen's last pass he had a chance to tie the game I wonder why that is?
thebandit27 Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 23 minutes ago, jrober38 said: You're not allowed to criticize Josh Allen after he has horrible games. There are people here who think Josh Allen is a better QB than Deshaun Watson. That's literally the opposite of what almost everyone has said to you directly. Just be honest about it; leave hyperbole out.
ngbills Posted December 9, 2019 Posted December 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Phil The Thrill said: Give me a break. My point is that every QB had a very bad game. Allen’s bad game is certainly comparable to Deshawn Watson, but I don’t see Texan fans says “Watson sucks” Not many are saying Josh sucks. They are saying he had a bad game. He needs to play better in these games going forward. There are many things he could and should have done better. When in a tough situation like yesterday you cannot miss on the chances you have bc you wont get too many. Josh had at least three that he just missed on. Compare that Jackson and he did not have those misses. Bills D played Jackson better than Balt D played Allen. Allen had more chances and missed.
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