Why You Shouldn’t Feel Completely Dejected Over Josh Allen’s Poor Performance

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're correct and I don't think 716 will disagree with you, except for the caveat that last Sunday in New Era was probably not the right time and place for arcs.

 

What was not a given, to me, is the improvement in Allen's short and intermediate throws.  He sucked at them last year (and ran instead of taking shots he had).  I will take my crow: I was openly skeptical that he could improve on those as much as he has.  He plainly put in a huge amount of work on them and it shows.

 

That being the case, while perhaps not a "given", I don't think it's very surprising that his deep ball suffered, either because he simply didn't give it the reps it needed with the current WR/TE corps (only one of whom was here last year), or because a change in his intermediate throw mechanics that he's successfully beaten into muscle memory has altered what he does with the deep ball.  Or both.

 

 

Actually that's not the case.   It was forecasted to be a windy day but instead it was dead calm around the stadium with almost no wind in the lower bowl of the stadium during the game.   For the first time in a number of home games wind was not an issue.  

 

And yeah I can buy that he didn't work on it enough but it's not excusable.........it's just at best an unfortunate oversight in offseason preparation or at worst a larger problem.   I think he can fix it and improve his touch/accuracy.    Ryan Tannehill really struggled with deep accuracy for a while and he seems to have gotten over that now and Josh is a lot more talented than Tannehill.

[thebandit27]

9 minutes ago, tcampbell104 said:

man you really hate the guy

 

You should have seen the venom pre-draft! He's had to back off from that nonsense significantly, but not to the point where he sounds rational (thank goodness for that, lest the posts lose their entertainment value).

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Actually that's not the case.   It was forecasted to be a windy day but instead it was dead calm around the stadium with almost no wind in the lower bowl of the stadium during the game.   For the first time in a number of home games wind was not an issue.  

 

And yeah I can buy that he didn't work on it enough but it's not excusable.........it's just at best an unfortunate oversight in offseason preparation or at worst a larger problem.   I think he can fix it and improve his touch/accuracy.    Ryan Tannehill really struggled with deep accuracy for a while and he seems to have gotten over that now and Josh is a lot more talented than Tannehill.

 

I think he tries way too hard to put touch on the ball. He needs to just rip it and not worry about getting picked...at least until he gets to the offseason and has time to really put in the work.

[tcampbell104]

i am a big allen fan, they are going to be in the playoffs this year but i believe next year  is the year josh puts it all together

[BADOLBILZ]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's not a given that it would be a lot worse but common sense days it wouldn't be as clean as the areas he busted his butt on

 

If you're a golfer and you practice  your irons for the majority for 6 months straight they will be impeccable.. but your driver game will take a hit

 

It's the same principal. People thought Allen couldn't hit the backside of a barn at close distances... Now he has 65% completion on throws from 10-20 yards downfield. He spent ALOT of time on them and it has paid off

 

He needs to do the same for the deep ball next off-season

 

 

1) Then wouldn't "common sense" have also told you that you were going to be awful at the deep ball if you didn't devote time/training to it??

 

Like I said it was an unfortunate oversight in the process not an unavoidable byproduct.   

 

2) If he does "the same" for the deep ball then wouldn't your common sense say that his short to intermediate throws would suffer?   You see what I mean?  It's not a given.   It's pretty weird that his deep ball has been so bad and far less explicable than you want to make it sound.

5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I think he tries way too hard to put touch on the ball. He needs to just rip it and not worry about getting picked...at least until he gets to the offseason and has time to really put in the work.

 

 

Sometimes yes but I think the last throw to Brown was him just ripping it.    The problem is that not having touch in your arsenal is limiting.   Ravens had no fear of being beaten over the top.   That allowed them to play pretty aggressive in coverage.   

[thebandit27]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Then wouldn't "common sense" have also told you that you were going to be awful at the deep ball if you didn't devote time/training to it??

 

Like I said it was an unfortunate oversight in the process not an unavoidable byproduct.   

 

2) If he does "the same" for the deep ball then wouldn't your common sense say that his short to intermediate throws would suffer?   You see what I mean?  It's not a given.   It's pretty weird that his deep ball has been so bad and far less explicable than you want to make it sound.

 

 

Sometimes yes but I think the last throw to Brown was him just ripping it.    The problem is that not having touch in your arsenal is limiting.   Ravens had no fear of being beaten over the top.   That allowed them to play pretty aggressive in coverage.   

 

Yeah I was speaking exclusively to the deep throws 

[Scott7975]

17 minutes ago, tcampbell104 said:

okay good enough

 

No not really.  He doesn't " hate " Allen, but he never liked him.  Never liked the pick.  Doesn't think he is any good.  Doesn't think he has any chance of getting any better either.  Close enough.

[Buffalo716]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Then wouldn't "common sense" have also told you that you were going to be awful at the deep ball if you didn't devote time/training to it??

 

Like I said it was an unfortunate oversight in the process not an unavoidable byproduct.   

 

2) If he does "the same" for the deep ball then wouldn't your common sense say that his short to intermediate throws would suffer?   You see what I mean?  It's not a given.   It's pretty weird that his deep ball has been so bad and far less explicable than you want to make it sound.

His deep ball wasn't that great last year and throwing a football is muscle memory..  especially with repetition

 

College football is ridiculously tough, you hardly have time to work on things like mechanics to find a groove because you have a massive playbook to learn and opponents to prepare for during the year

 

His lower body mechanics are off on his deep ball and it's messing with his consistency. He also had mechanical problems last year on short throws and cleaned them up

 

He needs to do the same with his deep ball. And lots of repetition creating muscle memory can do that

 

QBs can fix lots of parts of there game with repetition and muscle memory and it's pretty clear Allen spent an exorbitant amount of time on the short to intermediate stuff and it cleaned up his mechanics and also his accuracy

Edited December 11, 2019 by Buffalo716

[tcampbell104]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

No not really.  He doesn't " hate " Allen, but he never liked him.  Never liked the pick.  Doesn't think he is any good.  Doesn't think he has any chance of getting any better either.  Close enough.

all i can say is i believe allen is going to be a great qb

[Scott7975]

1 minute ago, tcampbell104 said:

all i can say is i believe allen is going to be a great qb

 

I believe he has the talent and the tools.  I believe he could be a great QB and he just has to put it all together.  It takes time.  I think it will take a little longer than normal because Allen didn't come from that premier coaching other QBs do.  This guy could be great.  People just need to cut him some slack and let him learn.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Mikey152 said:

I remember reading an article about Aaron Rodgers where they asked him about the "art" of the deep ball and why he was so good at it.  He said when he first came into the league, he was awful...mostly because he was trying to throw it as hard as he could, and in a game situation with his adrenaline pumping he would constantly overthrow it relative to his timing in practice.  Ultimately, he fixed this problem by focusing on repeating his mechanics, including how hard he threw it, every time.  Make it more of a calculated process than a wing and a prayer.  His placement is focused more on which shoulder, not how far, and he uses timing and mechanics to control distance and trajectory.

 

I think Josh has the same issue...the there is no rhythm.  He just kind of heaves it out there and it's usually too far...

 

I honestly think he just throws the ball too far for a normal 5 or 7 step drop.  He either needs to hitch, give it more air (mechanics) or take something off (tough due to adrenaline ina  game situation)...maybe all three

 

I think this is the article you are talking about. He doesn't say that he was terrible with the deep ball when he was in the NFL. Contextually, I read it as implying he was terrible at it in HS. He could throw it 75 yards, but it wasn't catchable. 

 

I think it goes back to what Rodgers said helped fix him, footwork, then timing footwork to each throw/route. Then of course Allen needs to control his velocity, and be a little bit like Rick Vaughn. 

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11984391/green-bay-packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-talks-art-deep-ball

 

 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

I think this is the article you are talking about. He doesn't say that he was terrible with the deep ball when he was in the NFL. Contextually, I read it as implying he was terrible at it in HS. He could throw it 75 yards, but it wasn't catchable. 

 

I think it goes back to what Rodgers said helped fix him, footwork, then timing footwork to each throw/route. Then of course Allen needs to control his velocity, and be a little bit like Rick Vaughn. 

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11984391/green-bay-packers-qb-aaron-rodgers-talks-art-deep-ball

 

 

Rodgers did have a bad deep ball(for NFL standards)  coming into the league and many wondered if he'd ever be able to hit it

 

Allen needs to work on his mechanics like Rodgers and find some touch

Edited December 11, 2019 by Buffalo716

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Rodgers did have a bad deep ball(for NFL standards)  coming into the league and many wondered if he'd ever be able to hit it

 

Allen needs to work on his mechanics like Rodgers and find some touch

 

Thanks for the correction. I didn't recall, just went off context. 

[Buffalo716]

Just now, Mango said:

 

Thanks for the correction. I didn't recall, just went off context. 

Rodgers was very similar to Josh

 

Both physically gifted specimens from a Cali JuCo college. Both could throw it over the mountains and throw darts on the run 

 

But both struggled with consistency due to sloppy mechanics and thinking they could put the ball through any window

 

Rodgers went from a sub par deep ball to probably the best in the world

[Nextmanup]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

We had receivers get open on deep routes at least 5 times against the Ravens and Allen couldn't complete a single one of those opportunities presented to him. 

He arguably left 3 touchdowns on the field that game, including the last throw into the end zone which would have won the game for us.  

 

And yet people want to needlessly complicate the issue by discussing pass protection from the OL or play calling from Daboll.

 

 

[Scott7975]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

He arguably left 3 touchdowns on the field that game, including the last throw into the end zone which would have won the game for us.  

 

And yet people want to needlessly complicate the issue by discussing pass protection from the OL or play calling from Daboll.

 

 

 

Yes, we all know you couldn't wait for this week to happen so you could discuss how bad Allen is.  It probably drove you nuts that you couldn't do it the week before or the week before that.

[thebandit27]

19 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

He arguably left 3 touchdowns on the field that game, including the last throw into the end zone which would have won the game for us.  

 

And yet people want to needlessly complicate the issue by discussing pass protection from the OL or play calling from Daboll.

 

 

 

I'm sure that there's no reason Andy Reid goes to max protect about 50% of the time that Mahomes takes a deep shot.

 

None at all.

 

Try harder.

[Coach Tuesday]

Take a look at Erik Turner's column today in The Athletic.

 

I'm far less concerned about the deep ball than I am with JA's tendency to see ghosts and bail from the pocket before he needs to.  The Ravens got in his head early in the game and it threw off his clock and caused him to overthink.  I didn't realize this at the time but on the Knox drop, he had Beasley wide open right in front of his face for an easy first down and instead threw it back across his body to Knox.  JA needs to keep working on his processing speed and understanding the goal of each play relative to the down-and-distance and game situation.  Daboll also needs to go empty backfield more, as explained in Turner's article - they went max protect to help shore up the protection and it resulted in disaster.

 

The deep balls are a plus but not a must.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Coach Tuesday

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's not a given that it would be a lot worse but common sense days it wouldn't be as clean as the areas he busted his butt on

 

If you're a golfer and you practice  your irons for the majority for 6 months straight they will be impeccable.. but your driver game will take a hit

 

It's the same principal. People thought Allen couldn't hit the backside of a barn at close distances... Now he has 65% completion on throws from 10-20 yards downfield. He spent ALOT of time on them and it has paid off

 

He needs to do the same for the deep ball next off-season

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

1) Then wouldn't "common sense" have also told you that you were going to be awful at the deep ball if you didn't devote time/training to it??

 

Like I said it was an unfortunate oversight in the process not an unavoidable byproduct.   

 

2) If he does "the same" for the deep ball then wouldn't your common sense say that his short to intermediate throws would suffer?   You see what I mean?  It's not a given.   It's pretty weird that his deep ball has been so bad and far less explicable than you want to make it sound.

 

 

Sometimes yes but I think the last throw to Brown was him just ripping it.    The problem is that not having touch in your arsenal is limiting.   Ravens had no fear of being beaten over the top.   That allowed them to play pretty aggressive in coverage.   

 

I am not so sure the issue last year was with the short to intermediate stuff. It seemed to be a matter of learning to take it rather than a matter of delivering it. If I recall, wasn't JA near the top of the league last year in average yards per attempt last year. 

 

Josh's issues seem to have always been controlling his velocity, mechanics, ball placements, and reading the defense quicker (which velocity bails him out on a lot). I don't think it has ever been as simple as "he can't throw the short stuff". It is the other big picture/fundamental stuff that has been holding him back as a passer, not granular specific throws. 

 

Which is why I would think BOTH deep and intermediate routes would have improved this year because it really is the base layer. 

[Luka]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

I don't hate anyone.

 

I just don't understand why people go to such extreme lengths to blame everyone but the QB for why we can't complete passes thrown more than 30 yards down field. 

 

The three misses in the first quarter were all awful throws from a clean pocket. 

 

I love Allen. I think he was a great pick and has a chance to be the best QB out of that draft class when all is said and done a decade from now.

 

But it all hinges on those kinds of passes. I said in another thread, he realistically left 17 points on the field. That game could've been a blowout if he hits those throws. And that's all on him.

 

He didn't get any help in the short and intermediate game from his receivers and I think people are confusing the two. Those 20+ throws are all on him. Like you said, clean pocket, open receiver. If he's going to be a franchise QB and take this team to the playoffs and to the Super Bowl year after year, he has to figure out how to start hitting those throws.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

 

I am not so sure the issue last year was with the short to intermediate stuff. It seemed to be a matter of learning to take it rather than a matter of delivering it. If I recall, wasn't JA near the top of the league last year in average yards per attempt last year. 

 

Josh's issues seem to have always been controlling his velocity, mechanics, ball placements, and reading the defense quicker (which velocity bails him out on a lot). I don't think it has ever been as simple as "he can't throw the short stuff". It is the other big picture/fundamental stuff that has been holding him back as a passer, not granular specific throws. 

 

Which is why I would think BOTH deep and intermediate routes would have improved this year because it really is the base layer. 

I never said he couldn't throw the short stuff but the majority of people did

 

And his completion percentage did reflect that last year ... And his timing in the Rhythm passing game has improved ten fold which accounts for his uptick in Completions

 

But I don't think deep ball is a base layer of measurement because you need all the pieces. We have 1 guy who is consistent deep and 1 guy in foster with potential but is wildly inconsistent

 

People also think a ball 40 yards downfield is a gimme just because the wr has a few steps... But the Bills defense has had wrs running deep 40 yards downfield and QBs have taken shots but they haven't allowed an air Completion of 40 yards this year Im pretty sure

 

Rodgers couldn't throw deep coming in and he got 3 years on the bench to work on his game. Josh will be fine