Captain Hindsight Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 Lamar has been awesome this year. Its hard not to give him a ton of credit for what he has been able to accomplish. I worry about his long term prospects, but for right now, this is working and working extremely well Josh has been great this year. His floor is much higher than most expected and I think he is still learning how to play QB at this level. I like his long term prospects more than any of the 1st rd QBs (Especially over Darnold and Mayfield) But 4 of 5 first QBs look to be at least above average talents at the NFL level. Thats a hell of a draft class and I'm glad the Bills finally got one. I'm very excited to watch the next few years to see who emerges as the "best"
machine gun kelly Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 This changes if we beat them in our house this Sunday. Then, my humble opinion we beat the Steelers next week, and now we are 11-3. Watch how the narrative changes. It will be non stop coverage on every outlet especially if NE loses to KC this week. Two 11-3 going for the AFCE title. Im pretty confident NE AND us will both win the last game so we are 13-3, and they are 12-4. How pretty would that be watching the Patsies as a wildcard team.
Billsfan1972 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Posted December 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, H2o said: Okay and the Bills scored 20 on the #4 defense, which their most points allowed this year was 30 by the Chiefs, where they basically ran 10 minutes of clock out on the ground. Then 4 days later they score 26 on the #6 defense, with Hauschka missing kicks, which had given up 34 points against the Packers previously as their highest total allowed. If Allen only throws the ball 20-25 times a game, but we keep winning, I could care less. The growth in his game is evident to everyone paying attention. And as long as we are winning I wouldn't change the approach. I get it the coaching staff can do no wrong. Dallas we all know is a joke & their schedule may actually have been easier then the Bills. Their defense allows chunks to every decent offense. BTW they put up plenty of yards vs. the Bills & missed fg's and shot themselves repeatedly in the foot.
Kirby Jackson Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, JerseyBills said: I don't think Lamar is close to Allen or most QBs in general ability to read the field and go through progressions , he has no pocket presence and is purely dominating off athletic ability and a perfect marriage to Greg Roman who will likely get HC offers this offseason. Even with the MVP like season , I'd take Allen all day as my franchise qb . I don't know how sustainable his style is, he is atrocious at making reads and everything is smoke and mirrors in their offense but just executing at a super high level. He’s leading the league in TDs from the pocket!! PFF actually has him as the highest grades player IN the pocket. Don’t fall into the trap of “we need to disparage the other guy to pump our guy up.” That’s lazy analysis. https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/ravens/one-metric-rates-lamar-jackson-best-pocket-passer-nfl Edited December 5, 2019 by Kirby Jackson 1
colin Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 it comes down to much more than just the QB, but we are gonna get a really good idea of a direct comparison in three days. the game will come down to if the bills can put a wrinkle in the base d (or nickle if they wanna do that all day) that forces baltimore into 3rd and long, but the story will be the battle of the best 2nd year QBs
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 47 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: I don't think Lamar is close to Allen or most QBs in general ability to read the field and go through progressions , he has no pocket presence and is purely dominating off athletic ability and a perfect marriage to Greg Roman who will likely get HC offers this offseason. Even with the MVP like season , I'd take Allen all day as my franchise qb . I don't know how sustainable his style is, he is atrocious at making reads and everything is smoke and mirrors in their offense but just executing at a super high level. You do realize that Jackson has better passing stats (4 less passing yards per game) across the board than Allen, right?
mabden Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 2 hours ago, H2o said: You can't really compare the two by statistics or style because they are completely different. Lamar is Randall Cunningham and Michael Vick rolled into one person. Athletically he just has no equal right now. Josh reminds me more of John Elway than anyone else. He has the rocket arm, the improvisation skills, and he has that clutch gene that just can't be taught or manufactured on it's own. One thing about both Josh and Lamar that is admirable in this day and age, the thing which makes me like them the most, both of them are humble. It's not about them, it's about the team as a whole. The only thing both of them are concerned with is winning. Whatever comes with that, successes and failures, they take it all in stride, continue to show the same humility, and work harder to get better. They will be forever linked as will Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen with them because they were all of the 2018 class of QB's. Imo, the best two from the crop will be head to head on Sunday. When I saw Allen's highlight film from Wyoming, I thought he reminds me of Elway, Marino, and Kelly combined. The legs of Elway, The arm of Marino, and the guts of Kelly.
simpleman Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 I have no clue who is better long term. Allen or Jackson. But right now Jackson has produced more exciting football than Allen. Will Jackson be able to sustain this next year and beyond? Only time will tell. It seems Allen has the better arm and his play so far may lead to more success and better durability long term, but time will tell. I don't see Jackson doing anything that Allen could not do as a runner and scrambler. The difference I do see between the two is coaching. The Ravens chose to ride Jackson as a scrambler and a runner, rather than take the time to develop him as a long term all around QB. They have set Jackson up to succeed NOW as a running QB, and chosen to be a WIN NOW team. They designed an offense to make the best of his existing running /scrambling abilities. They surrounded him with TEs and and the best OL talent to best support his existing talents NOW. The Bills have chosen to develop Allen as a dual threat Run / Pass QB LONG TERM, rather than emphasizing the WIN NOW over the long term like the Ravens have. I believe if you gave Allen the RBs, TEs and the OL blocking talent the Raven's have given Jackson, he could succeed just a well as Jackson has. It is an offensive coaching and system choice that both teams have made. Only time will tell long term which was the better choice. Roman has shown himself to be a genius for designing an offense based on a running QB. Will that be enough for long long term success without being based on an offense based on a dual threat long term balanced run / pass offense? Only time will tell. I am most impressed with the Raven's coaching, schemes, their players ability, and how well they have been coached to disguise and misdirect on offensive plays. I would hope that the Bills and other NFL teams would realize how important and effective that defensive confusion, and the slight but significant HESITATION it causes can be with a running threat QB like a Jackson or an Allen. In the NFL game “speed” is amazing. We talk about the game finally “slowing down” for rookies. Hesitation, even just a few milliseconds, is a killer in the NFL. Watching particularly the SF/Ravens game last week, I had real trouble momentarily figuring out exactly who actually had the ball many times. I believe Allen and the Bills could be coached and taught to be just as effective at “sleight of hand” as the Ravens are. Allen could be a much more effective and dangerous running and passing threat if they did. Allen has the smarts and the ability to do so just as effectively as Jackson has been, plus his better arm could make him even more dangerous. And giving Allen a RB who can bulldoze forward straight up the middle like the Raven's have in Ingram would open up the whole running game. Gore is no longer that threat. Imagine how sending Singletary outside around the edge like SF did with Mostert, along with a talented bulldozer straight up the gut runner would open up the field for Allen the runner, and as the passer. Let's not be jealous of the praise and attention Jackson and the Ravens are getting this year. They deserve it. Instead, why not learn from their successes, and do what they have done right this year even better next year. It is definitely do-able. And then we will be the ones getting all the well deserved attention and praise. 1
JerseyBills Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: You do realize that Jackson has better passing stats (4 less passing yards per game) across the board than Allen, right? Yes I realize. This is purely off the eye test , he is usually throwing to his first read , usually off play action. Their dominant run game makes life very very easy for Lamar. I just don't think he's close to the same level as Allen reading the field in the pass gm. Interested to see how he'll do without Roman
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, JerseyBills said: Yes I realize. This is purely off the eye test , he is usually throwing to his first read , usually off play action. Their dominant run game makes life very very easy for Lamar. I just don't think he's close to the same level as Allen reading the field in the pass gm. Interested to see how he'll do without Roman I mean I guess. He also set passing records in college. Without a doubt having Roman helps. But it seems like people are so quick to dismiss that Jackson may just be a good qb.
JerseyBills Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: I take it you mean Lamar? He makes usually the right read on his designed runs. Allen I'd like to see passing 35X's a game to accelerate his progress and a conscious effort by the Offense to score points, not play field position. He makes beautiful reads in the run game. If you shut down their run game , they have no chance with Lamar having to throw 30+ times for example, which is going to happen sooner than later
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said: In every Jackson thread, you reach really hard to put down his accomplishments. The Ravens have by far the best wins of any team in the nfl. Allen, who I thought had the best game of his career against the Cowboys who are .500, got a ton of love after it. it’s weird. When you beat good teams, are 10-3, and have accounted for 32 tds, you’re going to get a lot of attention. If Allen plays like he did against the Cowboys against our remaining schedule, he will get a ton of attention. But you come across as a hater trying to put down a qb who is having a MVP type season. As I said to Stank. This is an argument you two won't give up on and I won't get banned again for it. For Clarity I state that I don't believe he is a GOD, a guy who can't be defeated. I am sorry you won't respect my opinion. Edited December 5, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost
H2o Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 40 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: I get it the coaching staff can do no wrong. Dallas we all know is a joke & their schedule may actually have been easier then the Bills. Their defense allows chunks to every decent offense. BTW they put up plenty of yards vs. the Bills & missed fg's and shot themselves repeatedly in the foot. You're being a bit overly dramatic and putting words into my mouth. Did I say the coaching staff can do no wrong? Nope. What I said basically was if it isn't broke then don't try and fix it. Right now it's working pretty well and against quality defenses. You are specifically going out of your way to try and make this a LAMP about how the team isn't doing things that YOU want them to do or the way YOU want them to do it. You try to downplay the progress and accomplishments of the team as a whole because it has not been accomplished in the way that YOU would choose. If they make a playoff run, or possibly even win a SB, are you still going to be salty that it wasn't accomplished by Allen throwing the ball 35+ times a game or because the defense played situational football?
Putin Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 3 hours ago, BehindTheWoodshed said: But Lamar is winning more, more TD's (overall), more rushing yards, he's a media darling, Allen is not. Until that gimmicky offense gets cracked , lets see how successful that offense will be next year when Pittsburgh & Browns will have the whole offseason to figure out how to stop it ,
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 13 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: He makes beautiful reads in the run game. If you shut down their run game , they have no chance with Lamar having to throw 30+ times for example, which is going to happen sooner than later They are 2-2 when he passes 30 times in a game. But yeah, that’s definitely the game plan. 13 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: As I said to Stank. This is an argument you two won't give up on and I won't get banned again for it. For Clarity I state that I don't believe he is a GOD, a guy who can't be defeated. I am sorry you won't respect my opinion. No need for hyperbole brother. At this moment, he is the MVP of the league. If Allen, who I have been critical of as a prospect, had the same exact seasons with the wins they have had, I’d be touting him as MVP too. So would all Bills fans and we won’t be trying to find ways to put him down.
starrymessenger Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 To me it's not rocket science. they are both phenomenal athletes. Allen has great wheels but nobody has Lamar's wheels, never in league history. Allen has a significantly stronger arm, but Lamar's arm is strong enuf. Both are improving a lot with regard to accuracy/ball placement (especially Josh, but he had further to go). They both show good football smarts. Allen probably has a better chance of developing into a more complete pro QB executing a more diversified offence. Lamar has notably not been asked to make the kind of downfield reads that are necessary to a fully developed passing game. Probably he will get there in time but they are bringing him along carefully. Being able to do that is crucial because otherwise eventually he wind up in concussion protocol. I very much doubt that Lamar will ever be able to make all the throws quite as well as Josh will if Allen develops simply because of the difference in arm strength. They are both great young players at the all important position but they are not the only promising novices. We have come a long way since the days when Jameis and Mariota were considered elite prospects. 1
JerseyBills Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: They are 2-2 when he passes 30 times in a game. But yeah, that’s definitely the game plan. Ya for sure. I mean I've maybe seen 8 -10 of his full game highlights , so I'm in no way qualified on the matter, and hate when other fan bases judge Allen without watching all the games , but that was my biggest takeaway, that he struggles with progressions and reading the field from the pocket. Credit to the coaching and Lamar for using his freakish athletic ability and vision running to set him up with easy reads and the most dominant run game we've seen in years
Billsfan1972 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Posted December 5, 2019 20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I mean I guess. He also set passing records in college. Without a doubt having Roman helps. But it seems like people are so quick to dismiss that Jackson may just be a good qb. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder..... I think Lamar has been set up to succeed with much better offensive coaching then Allen. I also think good coaching will have him adapt and if he is a great qb he will. Lamar in Buffalo I'd expect him to be neutered (as I think Josh has been). Fits my narrative & standing by it.......??
H2o Posted December 5, 2019 Posted December 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: At this moment, he is the MVP of the league. If Allen, who I have been critical of as a prospect, had the same exact seasons with the wins they have had, I’d be touting him as MVP too. So would all Bills fans and we won’t be trying to find ways to put him down. And I have to agree with this sentiment. MVP stands for Most Valuable Player. Can you name a player right now that is more valuable to HIS TEAM than Lamar Jackson? I can't. The only one I see as close is Russell Wilson. Their, Baltimore's, success totally hinges on him. If he were not there then they would be lucky to be at .500, but would more than likely be well below with the schedule they have faced this year. I know people like to harp on the stats aspect of things, and it does draw attention, but I still look at what that person brings to his team as well and where would they likely be without that individual. Baltimore would be in dire straits right now if it were not for Lamar. 1
Billsfan1972 Posted December 5, 2019 Author Posted December 5, 2019 26 minutes ago, H2o said: You're being a bit overly dramatic and putting words into my mouth. Did I say the coaching staff can do no wrong? Nope. What I said basically was if it isn't broke then don't try and fix it. Right now it's working pretty well and against quality defenses. You are specifically going out of your way to try and make this a LAMP about how the team isn't doing things that YOU want them to do or the way YOU want them to do it. You try to downplay the progress and accomplishments of the team as a whole because it has not been accomplished in the way that YOU would choose. If they make a playoff run, or possibly even win a SB, are you still going to be salty that it wasn't accomplished by Allen throwing the ball 35+ times a game or because the defense played situational football? Yes I was, but I still maintain that Allen would be farther ahead with better coaching that did not play it so close to the chest. The Bills have way too many difficult down & distance plays every game (i.e. 3rd & 6+, 2nd & 9).....
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