Comparing Lamar & Josh

[atlbillsfan1975]

The Ravens aren’t trying to develop Jackson like the Bills are trying to develop Allen. Jackson isn’t running a pro style offense with multiple reads. Greg Roman was brought in because he was the perfect OC to maximize Lamar’s strengths. The Bills want Allen to develop into a pocket passing QB who when the pocket breaks down he can scramble for yards. 
The Ravens realize Lamar’s style of play  has a much shorter shelf life than Allen’s. Running QB’s don’t typically last a long time. Can Jackson transition into more of a pocket passer when he is older and not as elusive? Maybe. Vick did it with Andy Reid in Philly.  

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Geeze-

 

Lamar is a more explosive exciting player to watch right now.

 

thats what fueling the mania.

 

Some Bills fans need to stop acting slighted.

 

Barry Sanders got more attention than Thurman, because he was a more electric exciting player.

 

its ok... 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Just saying that the ravens have only one more win than the bills and leaving out the fact they’ve beaten the niners, seahawks, pats, Steelers and rams is sorta just putting your head in the sand. 
 

I think we may nip the ravens this weekend. I think the bills are a damn good team...... but the ravens string of victories against some of the best in the NFL pretty insane. 

 

Head in the sand huh?  Did I say he SUCKS? No, I did not.

 

As to the teams he beat - 

Niners - many in the media question them.  Have you seen their schedule? 

Seahawks - they escaped many teams by the skin of their teeth

Pats***   -  the Bills almost took them as I said above

Steelers  w/o Big Ben  

Rams  - Talk about a team falling from grace. 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

Is the OP still pissing and moaning about the offense after averaging 28 a game over the last 3? 
 

I’ve always made sure to credit him for his consistency. 

[Billsfan1972]

And again my narrative won't change.  If Lamar played for the Bills they'd stunt his offense too.....?

 

Lamar is more exciting because the Ravens nurture it.  The Bills to me have done Allen no favours & frankly I'd think his progression as a qb would be further along with better coaching.

 

Now of course Baltimore has played much better teams and a better record.  To me the Bills have had a soft schedule & played bad defenses and this again was the time to move Allen's development forward at a quicker pace. 

[Stank_Nasty]

5 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Head in the sand huh?  Did I say he SUCKS? No, I did not.

 

As to the teams he beat - 

Niners - many in the media question them.  Have you seen their schedule? 

Seahawks - they escaped many teams by the skin of their teeth

Pats***   -  the Bills almost took them as I said above

Steelers  w/o Big Ben  

Rams  - Talk about a team falling from grace. 

 

This sounds like what the media and other fans do with the bills. 
 

 they’ve beat 6 teams(Texans as well) with winning records in their 8 game streak. 3 of which are regarded as top 5 in the NFL. It’s been a truly amazing run. 

 

why do people feel the need to downgrade it or do the same thing to it that the rest of the league does to our bills? Not a great look. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Is the OP still pissing and moaning about the offense after averaging 28 a game over the last 3? 
 

I’ve always made sure to credit him for his consistency. 

And I said I'm more pleased the last three games in this thread buddy.  Still averaging only 21 & will continue to lay that on the coaches.

 

Take out Miami games 37 & 31 (returned on-side kick & Baltimore put up over 50) & yes still concerned about McD & Daboll trying to play for a 17-13 game this weekend.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 minute ago, Stank_Nasty said:

This sounds like what the media and other fans do with the bills. 
 

 they’ve beat 6 teams(Texans as well) with winning records in their 8 game streak. 3 of which are regarded as top 5 in the NFL. It’s been a truly amazing run. 

 

why do people feel the need to downgrade it or do the same thing to it that the rest of the league does to our bills? Not a great look. 

 

Downgrade? 

 

Or comparing an apple to an apple.

Or comparing schedule to schedule.

 

Compared to Tyrod Taylor,  Lamar is Electrifying!!! 

 

[Stank_Nasty]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And I said I'm more pleased the last three games in this thread buddy.  Still averaging only 21 & will continue to lay that on the coaches.

 

Take out Miami games 37 & 31 (returned on-side kick & Baltimore put up over 50) & yes still concerned about McD & Daboll trying to play for a 17-13 game this weekend.  

Now we are taking out high scores to try and prove the point. Solid. 
 

And if we are taking our return td’s. We need to do it with every other team. We only have one. Other teams have 3 or 4. 

6 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Downgrade? 

 

Or comparing an apple to an apple.

Or comparing schedule to schedule.

 

Compared to Tyrod Taylor,  Lamar is Electrifying!!! 

 

You are apparently missing the point. You just did what the whole league does to the bills. It’s silly. Why bother trying to take away from what they’ve done? 6 winning teams down in their 8 game streak. That’s just crazy. 3 of which are regarded the best of the best. 
 

and Jackson has been electrifying compared to the WHOLE NFL. That’s why he’s favored along with Wilson for the MVP. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Stank_Nasty

[finn]

Right. Rationality goes out the window when the media (announcers, online, print) and fans starts swooning over a player--or when the narrative, as you say, takes root that he sucks or is inaccurate or whatever. Facts and data are tailored to the story, and those who disagree are denounced. It's almost like religion and politics, and in fact I wonder if the same psychology is involved. Infatuation, "faith," group-think, hatred of the heretic, eagerness to identify with the successful, fear of being associated with the loser... Maybe part of the satisfaction of following sports is that we get to put aside rational thought for a while and indulge our most primitive impulses. Case in point: Haushka misses the last-minute field goal attempt against Cleveland. Instantly one narrative--Allen as the come-back kid, the defense as tough as nails, the team character as resilient--is replaced by another: Allen is struggling, the Bills' record is an illusion, the defense is meh--and nothing changed except Haushka's kick. That's irrational. 

[billsfan1959]

7 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How so????  Am confused.  I've supported Allen since day one.  I've criticized the coaching of the offense since day one too.   

 

You and I have had our disagreements; however, you have supported Allen and your arguments have always been about the style of offense you would like to see with him.

 

I agree with you that they are closer than people want to admit. I posted the stats of Allen and Jackson over the last 8 games in several other threads. I chose that span because Allen has been playing differently since the NE game, and Jackson has been on an 8 game winning streak. From a pure player production standpoint, they have been pretty close: Jackson has only 174 more total yards, less passing yards, more rushing yards 3 more total TDS, 1 more turnover, 2 more wins, and a 109 passer rating to Allen's 99 rating. While Jackson has considerably more rushing yards, he also has almost twice as many attempts in an offense designed specifically to maximize his running skills.

 

Where they differ is overall team scoring - and that is a product of what they do on the opponents side of the field. Excluding kneel downs at the end of the game, Jackson and the Ravens have had only 4 drives inside the opponents 40 yard line where they did not score points. By contrast, the Bills have had 30 drives inside the opponents 40 where they did not score points. Just kicking field goals on 20 of those 30 drives would move the Bills from 19th to 7th in scoring. The Bills are great in the red zone. They have had their troubles between the 20-40 yard lines. Jackson has excelled in that area against some pretty good teams. That is the primary difference in production between the two. If Allen and the Bills had found ways to score TDs and FGs on half of those drives I described above - there may be a completely different national discussion going on right now.

 

I do agree with you that Jackson is evaluated differently than Allen. I think a lot of that has to do with the level of polarization surrounding Allen, and the hard lines drawn by people in their evaluations of him going into the draft. It is starting to change, not coincidentally, with better offensive play over the last three weeks.

 

Here's hoping that change in the national conversation of Allen continues after this game.

 

In the end, I don't care what other people say about Allen, how they think he measures up to other QBs, or which other QBs are better. I think he is the right QB for this team and this city. He is talented, tough, competitive, and smart. Over his last 16 games (a full season), he is 11-5. Over his last 8 games he has 18 TDs and 3 turnovers. Over his last 3 games, we have started to see that talent on display even more - with so much more room to grow.

 

Go Bills!

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by billsfan1959

[H2o]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And I said I'm more pleased the last three games in this thread buddy.  Still averaging only 21 & will continue to lay that on the coaches.

 

Take out Miami games 37 & 31 (returned on-side kick & Baltimore put up over 50) & yes still concerned about McD & Daboll trying to play for a 17-13 game this weekend.  

If you can't see that Miami is a COMPLETELY different team right now than they were in week one I don't know what to tell you. They are 3-2 in their last 5 games and have played everyone pretty tough since the Redskins game 3 weeks prior to their first win. The 50 hung on them by Baltimore is week 1 is kind of a weak arguing point. The Bills hung 37 on the Dolphins in the 2nd game, 20 on the #4 defense in the NFL at the time even though they did nothing but run clock from the 10 minute mark in the 4th Qtr on, and then 26 on the #6 defense in the NFL 4 days later, on their home field, on national tv, even with Hauschka missing kicks. Ever since Daboll went in the booth, and they told Josh to basically be himself, this team has been night and day on offense with Josh still not making mistakes outside of one errant pass. 

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, H2o said:

If you can't see that Miami is a COMPLETELY different team right now than they were in week one I don't know what to tell you. They are 3-2 in their last 5 games and have played everyone pretty tough since the Redskins game 3 weeks prior to their first win. The 50 hung on them by Baltimore is week 1 is kind of a weak arguing point. The Bills hung 37 on the Dolphins in the 2nd game, 20 on the #4 defense in the NFL at the time even though they did nothing but run clock from the 10 minute mark in the 4th Qtr on, and then 26 on the #6 defense in the NFL 4 days later, on their home field, on national tv, even with Hauschka missing kicks. Ever since Daboll went in the booth, and they told Josh to basically be himself, this team has been night and day on offense with Josh still not making mistakes outside of one errant pass. 

Everyone scores vs. Miami.....  And if you use Indy as an example, Hoyer was the qb that game.  Their defense is lousy..... 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

35 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Now we are taking out high scores to try and prove the point. Solid. 
 

And if we are taking our return td’s. We need to do it with every other team. We only have one. Other teams have 3 or 4. 

You are apparently missing the point. You just did what the whole league does to the bills. It’s silly. Why bother trying to take away from what they’ve done? 6 winning teams down in their 8 game streak. That’s just crazy. 3 of which are regarded the best of the best. 
 

and Jackson has been electrifying compared to the WHOLE NFL. That’s why he’s favored along with Wilson for the MVP. 

 

And??  Schedule are schedules.  An excuse for one team is an excuse for another team.   Dallas leads their division.  Ergo they are a good team. 

 

Did the Bills benefit from their schedule?  Probably.  Just like all the other teams may have. 

 

Why are you continuing to pursue this? 

 

(If I don't respond it's because I don't want to continue a circular argument) 

[Kirby Jackson]

I haven’t read it all but this is where I’m going to go to my “there can be multiple good QBs in a draft class argument.” Watson and Mahomes are both good. Wilson and Luck are (or were) both good. Lamar Jackson is probably the MVP of the league. Josh Allen is an ascending talent that may find himself in the Pro Bowl this year. Both teams should be very happy with the guy that they drafted. 

[Hebert19]

Having the media like you and 5 bucks can but you a coffee.  Who cares.  Josh is our guy and we know if he keeps current trajectory he will be a top 5 qb in this league.  Both guys are the future if the league. 

[JerseyBills]

I don't think Lamar is close to Allen or most QBs in general ability to read the field and go through progressions , he has no pocket presence and is purely dominating off athletic ability and a perfect marriage to Greg Roman who will likely get HC offers this offseason. 

Even with the MVP like season  , I'd take Allen all day as my franchise qb . I don't know how sustainable his style is,  he is atrocious at making reads and everything is smoke and mirrors in their offense but just executing at a super high level. 

[C.Biscuit97]

56 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Head in the sand huh?  Did I say he SUCKS? No, I did not.

 

As to the teams he beat - 

Niners - many in the media question them.  Have you seen their schedule? 

Seahawks - they escaped many teams by the skin of their teeth

Pats***   -  the Bills almost took them as I said above

Steelers  w/o Big Ben  

Rams  - Talk about a team falling from grace. 

 

In every Jackson thread, you reach really hard to put down his accomplishments.  The Ravens have by far the best wins of any team in the nfl.  Allen, who I thought had the best game of his career against the Cowboys who are .500, got a ton of love after it.  
 

it’s weird. When you beat good teams, are 10-3, and have accounted for 32 tds, you’re going to get a lot of attention.  If Allen plays like he did against the Cowboys against our remaining schedule, he will get a ton of attention.  But you come across as a hater trying to put down a qb who is having a MVP type season. 

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I don't think Lamar is close to Allen or most QBs in general ability to read the field and go through progressions , he has no pocket presence and is purely dominating off athletic ability and a perfect marriage to Greg Roman who will likely get HC offers this offseason. 

Even with the MVP like season  , I'd take Allen all day as my franchise qb . I don't know how sustainable his style is,  he is atrocious at making reads and everything is smoke and mirrors in their offense but just executing at a super high level. 

I take it you mean Lamar?  He makes usually the right read on his designed runs.

 

Allen I'd like to see passing 35X's a game to accelerate his progress and a conscious effort by the Offense to score points, not play field position. 

 

 

[H2o]

25 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Everyone scores vs. Miami.....  And if you use Indy as an example, Hoyer was the qb that game.  Their defense is lousy..... 

Okay and the Bills scored 20 on the #4 defense, which their most points allowed this year was 30 by the Chiefs, where they basically ran 10 minutes of clock out on the ground. Then 4 days later they score 26 on the #6 defense, with Hauschka missing kicks, which had given up 34 points against the Packers previously as their highest total allowed. 

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I take it you mean Lamar?  He makes usually the right read on his designed runs.

 

Allen I'd like to see passing 35X's a game to accelerate his progress and a conscious effort by the Offense to score points, not play field position. 

 

 

If Allen only throws the ball 20-25 times a game, but we keep winning, I could care less. The growth in his game is evident to everyone paying attention. And as long as we are winning I wouldn't change the approach.