Comparing Lamar & Josh

[Billsfan1972]

I really am an Allen fan because he is a Bill.....  Forget the draft & whether the right pick, very simply he is a Bill & at the most important position (and when needed throwing the ball for 300+?).

 

What bothers me is the narrative when comparing, which no one does to Lamar, who is the flavour of the day.

 

Every pass is scrutinized in minutiae by fans here & the national media who did not like the Josh Allen pick.  The same was done early with Lamar, but now they have gone 180 & seldom hear anything about his passing, mechanics or ability.

 

If Lamar misses a receiver, throws a bad pass or makes a wrong read then many would be gushing over incompletions and making the right decision or throwing it to where only the receiver could get it.  With Allen it is he hesitated, didn't go through his progressions, threw it too late.....

 

I couildn't believe game 1 vs. NYJ & the pick 6 that hit Beasley pretty much between the 8 & the 0 & the # here blaming Allen (too low, a little off, too hard......).

 

Lamar had 105 yards passing vs. SF & nothing really to WR's.  Is he assessing the whole field?  Of course the announcers blamed the weather (and some validity).  There was not a single bad thing said about him the whole game.

 

Rushing yards included 14 yards & a lost fumble.....  Maybe should remove those from his stats.

 

I've been Glass Half Full & think Allen has been stunted by the offense & lack of opening it up & really seeing what he can do.

 

 Here's Lamar's 2018 vs. Josh's

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3916387/type/nfl/year/2018

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3918298/type/nfl/year/2018

 

Also see Joe Flacco's #'s before he was benched.....  Not too bad & compare that to Nathan Peterman's......

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/type/nfl/year/2018

 

Thus as Allen is the Bills QB, I'd say that he's dealt with more adversity & go as far as to say his #'s are comparable (when you throw out NE).....

 

Media slowly turning but then you get still the "Don't trust Allen" & similar comments.

[BehindTheWoodshed]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Every pass is scrutinized in minutiae by fans here & the national media who did not like the Josh Allen pick.  The same was done early with Lamar, but now they have gone 180 & seldom hear anything about his passing, mechanics or ability.

 

It's quite simple. Allen has to keep winning.

[H2o]

You can't really compare the two by statistics or style because they are completely different. Lamar is Randall Cunningham and Michael Vick rolled into one person. Athletically he just has no equal right now. Josh reminds me more of John Elway than anyone else. He has the rocket arm, the improvisation skills, and he has that clutch gene that just can't be taught or manufactured on it's own. One thing about both Josh and Lamar that is admirable in this day and age, the thing which makes me like them the most, both of them are humble. It's not about them, it's about the team as a whole. The only thing both of them are concerned with is winning. Whatever comes with that, successes and failures, they take it all in stride, continue to show the same humility, and work harder to get better. They will be forever linked as will Darnold, Mayfield, and Rosen with them because they were all of the 2018 class of QB's. Imo, the best two from the crop will be head to head on Sunday. 

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, BehindTheWoodshed said:

 

It's quite simple. Allen has to keep winning.

I have Allen 5-6 last year & 9-3 this year.....  Seems to be winning  or 60.9% 

[BehindTheWoodshed]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I have Allen 5-6 last year & 9-3 this year.....  Seems to be winning  or 60.9% 

 

But Lamar is winning more, more TD's (overall), more rushing yards, he's a media darling, Allen is not.

Edited December 5, 2019 by BehindTheWoodshed

[Protocal69]

Its the winning and the electric style of play that has people looking the other way regarding Lamar Jackson. Ravens went ALL in on Lamar Jackson and I can appreciate that. I am happy for Lamar but the point remains that the book is still open regarding Lamar regarding him as a passer. For example last game he had more rushing attempts than he did completions.

 

Like a said in a previous post the Lamar and that offense is a glitch ( i dont even mean that in a disrepectful manner) but at the end of the day all glitches get patched

[Billsfan1972]

I know, and those here know I am not happy with the Bills offense (excluding the last three weeks), their game planning & how they have handled Allen.

 

I wanted to see Allen throwing more & seeing whether the offense can sink or swim.  Game management to me is not what you want from an offense.  I want them to win games (and not play between the 20's & play a field position game).

 

However I was looking at only what Allen was allowed to do within the context of play calls & think he is much closer to Lamar then people think (and heck as he is the Bills QB I put him ahead of Jackson).

 

Conversely Baltimore has done everything to ensure Lamar's success & to me the Bills have not with Josh.

[Protocal69]

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know, and those here know I am not happy with the Bills offense (excluding the last three weeks), their game planning & how they have handled Allen.

 

I wanted to see Allen throwing more & seeing whether the offense can sink or swim.  Game management to me is not what you want from an offense.  I want them to win games (and not play between the 20's & play a field position game).

 

However I was looking at only what Allen was allowed to do within the context of play calls & think he is much closer to Lamar then people think (and heck as he is the Bills QB I put him ahead of Jackson).

 

Conversely Baltimore has done everything to ensure Lamar's success & to me the Bills have not with Josh.

You sound like a hypocrite.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

6 minutes ago, BehindTheWoodshed said:

 

But Lamar is winning more, more TD's (overall), more rushing yards, he's a media darling, Allen is not.

 

YAWN .. 

The Ravens team has one more win than Buffalo and lets not forget that NE game, which was very close, they took Josh out of a game with a hit to the head. 

A game when the Bills were down by 6 points and Josh was playing a much better 3rd QRT than the first half AND the Defense shut down the Pats for ZERO points in the 4th QTR.

 

Being a media darling doesn't mean anything 

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I know, and those here know I am not happy with the Bills offense (excluding the last three weeks), their game planning & how they have handled Allen.

 

I wanted to see Allen throwing more & seeing whether the offense can sink or swim.  Game management to me is not what you want from an offense.  I want them to win games (and not play between the 20's & play a field position game).

 

However I was looking at only what Allen was allowed to do within the context of play calls & think he is much closer to Lamar then people think (and heck as he is the Bills QB I put him ahead of Jackson).

 

Conversely Baltimore has done everything to ensure Lamar's success & to me the Bills have not with Josh.

I can understand what you are getting at here. I think though, we don’t really know which is the better way to progress a QB. Because Jackson is working in a system that works for him he may never become a good passer once defense catches up. That is not to say he doesn’t throw the ball well but there is much more to it then that. 
 

Allen is in a conventional offense that will always work as long as he progresses as a passer. They are bringing him along slowly instead of throwing him into the fire. 
 

what’s working great for Baltimore today may not work so well next year. Are they bringing him along as a passer and QB to counteract that. I know they are bringing Allen along. 
 

let’s see how they both are next year and the year after. 

[BehindTheWoodshed]

Just now, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

YAWN .. 

The Ravens team has one more win than Buffalo and lets not forget that NE game, which was very close, they took Josh out of a game with a hit to the head. 

A game when the Bills were down by 6 points and Josh was playing a much better 3rd QRT than the first half AND the Defense shut down the Pats for ZERO points in the 4th QTR.

 

 

I'm not saying I agree with the media's portrayal, but I do understand why it is what it is.  Anytime a QB of color is having success it's going to be a huge story, especially when dumbasses like Bill Polian say Lamar should be a receiver or whatever.

[Big Turk]

39 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I really am an Allen fan because he is a Bill.....  Forget the draft & whether the right pick, very simply he is a Bill & at the most important position (and when needed throwing the ball for 300+?).

 

What bothers me is the narrative when comparing, which no one does to Lamar, who is the flavour of the day.

 

Every pass is scrutinized in minutiae by fans here & the national media who did not like the Josh Allen pick.  The same was done early with Lamar, but now they have gone 180 & seldom hear anything about his passing, mechanics or ability.

 

If Lamar misses a receiver, throws a bad pass or makes a wrong read then many would be gushing over incompletions and making the right decision or throwing it to where only the receiver could get it.  With Allen it is he hesitated, didn't go through his progressions, threw it too late.....

 

I couildn't believe game 1 vs. NYJ & the pick 6 that hit Beasley pretty much between the 8 & the 0 & the # here blaming Allen (too low, a little off, too hard......).

 

Lamar had 105 yards passing vs. SF & nothing really to WR's.  Is he assessing the whole field?  Of course the announcers blamed the weather (and some validity).  There was not a single bad thing said about him the whole game.

 

Rushing yards included 14 yards & a lost fumble.....  Maybe should remove those from his stats.

 

I've been Glass Half Full & think Allen has been stunted by the offense & lack of opening it up & really seeing what he can do.

 

 Here's Lamar's 2018 vs. Josh's

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3916387/type/nfl/year/2018

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3918298/type/nfl/year/2018

 

Also see Joe Flacco's #'s before he was benched.....  Not too bad & compare that to Nathan Peterman's......

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/11252/type/nfl/year/2018

 

Thus as Allen is the Bills QB, I'd say that he's dealt with more adversity & go as far as to say his #'s are comparable (when you throw out NE).....

 

Media slowly turning but then you get still the "Don't trust Allen" & similar comments.

 

As WGR explained it, they really don't use their WR's very much in Baltimore, which is the reason why John Brown was deemed expendable once Jackson started playing and his numbers fell off a cliff.  They utilize zone read play action in their passing game that ends up causing the linebackers to take a step or two up and then they throw to the TE's behind them down the middle of the field.  It's why Marc Andrews is having so many wide open catches. 

 

The reason why the Bills might match up well in this is because they have two of the fastest and most athletic LB's in the league in Edmunds and Milano who can probably get back in position even with a false step or two.  This will be interesting to see if they can hold the passing game down and force them to be one dimensional.  Granted their one dimension is something the Bills have not done great against this year in stopping the run, but at least it would help to force them to run more.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

38 minutes ago, BehindTheWoodshed said:

 

I'm not saying I agree with the media's portrayal, but I do understand why it is what it is.  Anytime a QB of color is having success it's going to be a huge story, especially when dumbasses like Bill Polian say Lamar should be a receiver or whatever.

 

There it is.  The race card.    SMH.  Being a media darling has nothing to do with skin color. 

 

FWIW I'd take Deshaun Watson, Russel Wilson, Pat Mahomes easily before I'd think of Lamar. 

 

All of them were media darlings and 2 of them have a multiple seasons to back them up.

 

Faker Mayfield was a media darling.

Sam Darnold was a Media darling. 

 

All shiny new toys to gush over and then forgotten

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by SlimShady'sGhost

[BehindTheWoodshed]

9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

There it is.  The race card.    SMH. 

 

I'd take Deshaun Watson, Russel Wilson, Pat Mahomes easily before I thought to pick Lamar. 

 

 

It's not so much a race card issue as opposed to promoting diversity (some people will see them as the same thing however).  We all know the QB position has been the one position on the field that has been "resisting" diversity for decades now. Bottom line, if we still have guys like Polian saying players like Lamar Jackson should be a WR instead of a QB, the push for diversity at  the position will still be a "thing" in the media.  Players should just be players regardless of skin color, but we are all smart enough to know that society is simply not there yet.

 

Personally, I think Jackson is better right now.  Long term, no idea.

Edited December 5, 2019 by BehindTheWoodshed

[Billsfan1972]

20 minutes ago, Protocal69 said:

You sound like a hypocrite.

How so????  Am confused.  I've supported Allen since day one.  I've criticized the coaching of the offense since day one too.   

[r00tabaga]

6 minutes ago, BehindTheWoodshed said:

 

It's not so much a race card issue as opposed to promoting diversity (some people will see them as the same thing however).  We all know the QB position has been the one position on the field that has been "resisting" diversity for decades now. Bottom line, if we still have guys like Polian saying players like Lamar Jackson should be a WR instead of a QB, the push for diversity at  the position will still be a "thing" in the media.  Players should just be players regardless of skin color, but we are all smart enough to know that society is simply not there yet.

Promoting diversity.....the NFL needs more Jason Sehorns!

Edited December 5, 2019 by r00tabaga

[BehindTheWoodshed]

1 minute ago, r00tabaga said:

Promoting diversity.....the NFL needs more Jason Sehorns!

 

Nah they're good, they have Christian McCaffrey.

[Billsfan1972]

15 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

As WGR explained it, they really don't use their WR's very much in Baltimore, which is the reason why John Brown was deemed expendable once Jackson started playing and his numbers fell off a cliff.  They utilize zone read play action in their passing game that ends up causing the linebackers to take a step or two up and then they throw to the TE's behind them down the middle of the field.  It's why Marc Andrews is having so many wide open catches. 

 

The reason why the Bills might match up well in this is because they have two of the fastest and most athletic LB's in the league in Edmunds and Milano who can probably get back in position even with a false step or two.  This will be interesting to see if they can hold the passing game down and force them to be one dimensional.  Granted their one dimension is something the Bills have not done great against this year in stopping the run, but at least it would help to force them to run more.

Again the narrative promoting Lamar.  If it was Allen, it would be "Allen can't read the field or find his open wide receivers as shown in the All-22" 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again the narrative promoting Lamar.  If it was Allen, it would be "Allen can't read the field or find his open wide receivers as shown in the All-22" 

 

Well if a team can go 24 straight possessions without a punt then I don't really think it matters what he is or isn't able to do....

 

All I know is that its extremely effective

[Stank_Nasty]

27 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

YAWN .. 

The Ravens team has one more win than Buffalo and lets not forget that NE game, which was very close, they took Josh out of a game with a hit to the head. 

A game when the Bills were down by 6 points and Josh was playing a much better 3rd QRT than the first half AND the Defense shut down the Pats for ZERO points in the 4th QTR.

 

Being a media darling doesn't mean anything 

Just saying that the ravens have only one more win than the bills and leaving out the fact they’ve beaten the niners, seahawks, pats, Steelers and rams is sorta just putting your head in the sand. 
 

I think we may nip the ravens this weekend. I think the bills are a damn good team...... but the ravens string of victories against some of the best in the NFL pretty insane. 
 

... I do agree on the pats game though. I’ve thought ever since it happened that if allen stays in there he finds a way to get it done. That’s just been his “thing” 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Stank_Nasty