A comment about Lamar gets a 49er's announcer suspended

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, CoudyBills said:

At the risk of this being banished to ppp I will stop here, but what is the point if there isn't a uniform standard? 

 

First off, general comment: I predicted to another mod this thread would be locked by the time I woke up this am.  Instead, I'm proud of my TBD peeps; there's been a good job of airing different views without going off the rails or expanding the scope.  Now I get to try to say my thing and not expand the scope beyond football relevance, it is a challenge.

 

@CoudyBills several have expressed a similar viewpoint (lack of a uniform (haha!) standard) - for example, would it be seen the same way to make a comment about a baseball pitcher's white skin making it harder to see the white ball? 

 

And to that I say, We need to look at remarks in societal context.  We just can't make society uniform or fair.  Can't be done.  People have their backgrounds and experiences which lead them to different views, and they may not come from a place of personal prejudice but can still have prejudicial impact, taken in aggregate.  What we can do is understand the impact of words on people *in their societal context*. 

With Lamar Jackson, the societal context is that he, a Heisman winning QB with two seasons >3500 yds passing and close to 60% completions the 2nd, had pundits saying pre-draft he should convert to another position he had never played, WR or RB.   I had never heard anything like it about another star, award-winning college player.   There were also a lot of comments on his low Wonderlic, even though the Wonderlic is very SAT-like and it's been well established that  SAT scores fall along socioeconomic lines and don't correlate well to actual intelligence.  Those comments get framed into a still broader context of a time not long ago when smart black QBs just didn't get opportunities to play QB in the NFL.

 

You can't change all of the above to make a uniform standard.  No one can give Lamar a world where everyone gets uniform scholastic opportunities and where his athletic talents are guaranteed review based solely upon their merits with no influence from the past.  It can't be done.  It can't.  It is what it is.

 

What we can do, is expect that *in the context of the above*, a team representative (49ers PR guy as I understand it, analogous to Chris Brown) should understand that remarks that could imply Lamar's skin color (rather than Lamar's skill) is part of Lamar's success at deceptive handoffs are inappropriate. It's inappropriate because of the player's past history of folks overlooking one aspect of his skill set (QB skills) to focus on another (running chops), rather than saying "the kid plays QB, he's earned the right to succeed or fail at his chosen position". 

 

People seem to understand that the intent wasn't malicious or prejudiced, so the announcer got a slap on the wrist (1 day) just to say "hey, pay attention to your words"

 

The reason there is not a uniform standard (white pitcher, white ball vs black football player, black ball) is because of societal context.  If that white pitcher heard remarks around the draft that maybe he should convert to first base because (*mumblemumble*) and lived in a social context where historically, talented white pitchers were denied the opportunity to be pitchers, then it would similar.   But we don't.

 

There probably is some "reverse racism" around sports - Don Beebe famously had a shirt that said "White Flash" because apparently he heard lots of doubts about whether his fast 40-time was legit that he felt he wouldn't have gotten if he had black skin.

[GG]

I'm guessing this kind of play analysis using vertically challenged players will be verboten too?

 

 

Quote

 

Texas Tech beat Texas by hiding its smallest player behind its biggest ones

 

...

It's a silly premise, but this screencap from the Auburn game should show you how effective it can be at obscuring an opponent's vision.

...

For Tech, Grant is the tiny guy. He's the shortest player on the roster and the second lightest, at 168 pounds. Texas didn't appear to see him, as its linemen and linebackers all ran the wrong way after the snap.

 

 

[Gugny]

53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think what's being lost in all this is he may have a valid point, and the NFL ought to look at the impact of the Ravens uniform color. But because something that can't be changed got tossed in there (skin color), I doubt that will be reviewed.

 

Earlier this morning, I did google images searches for "Ravens 49ers 2019" and "Ravens Patriots 2019."  In both of those games, Ravens were wearing black.

 

I then expanded my search to other 2019 Ravens matchups and saw no identifiable trend, as far as uniform color vs. strength of opponent.

 

Seeing how they're on the road against a 9-3 Buffalo team, I'd think if they purposely chose to wear black vs. stronger opponents, they'd have done it here.

 

I don't know when, or how, uniform decisions are made, i.e. - which team gets to choose first.

[Say When...]

34 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I hate racism.  No tolerance for it what so ever.  I’ve cut people out of my life over comments I’ve found racist.  
 

BUT:  Can someone please explain to me when acknowledging the skin tone color of a person became racist?  
 

I mean, it’s a fact that Lamar and other black athletes skin tone is closer to the color of the ball than a caucasian player.  Why is it racist to make a comment that involves acknowledging this as true?  
 

People act like it’s shameful to acknowledge African Americans have a darker skin tone.  Makes no sense.  
 

Facts:  Lamar has a dark complexion.  The ball is dark brown.  Ravens jerseys are dark.  
 

More facts:  Read option involves a QB concealing a potential handoff, entire point is to conceal the ball.  
 

More facts:  The RBs involved in this particular read option offense are also African American with similar skin tone to Lamar and also wearing dark colored jerseys. 
 

More facts:  Lamar is fast as ****.  Lamar is explosive.  
 

More facts:  Even the camera crew is constantly struggling to figure out which direction the ball is going on read options because it’s just a difficult play to follow, especially when a team executes it at a high level.
 

Put that all that together, and it’s not hard to see how a sports commentator might say something like he did.  It was clearly not said with a racist undertone.  
 

Its 100% logical to think it’s slightly more difficult to follow the ball in a concealed read option play when Ravens are wearing their black jerseys with Lamar running it than say Josh Allen running it while we are wearing our white Jerseys.  And the comment was complimenting Lamar by saying he’s so explosive that even a fraction of a hesitation to locate the ball will make it too late to stop him.  
 

Sorry this was not racist.  Just wasn’t.  I do agree, that he does need to be more aware of the over corrected society we live in now and should have used a little more sensitivity in how he phrased the statement.  But it wasn’t a blatant racist comment and he shouldn’t be condemned for it, especially with no history of something like this.

 

i"m in total agreement with AD7 here, i think society is being overtly sensitive.

 

Heck i thought the same thing (minus skin color thought) but watching that game, all black uni's, darker than usual wet ball, bad weather and Lamar does have black armbands as well, the ball was very disguised.  if you were to go a step further then yes, skin tone would play into it.

 

let's not forget Browns nickname, and most of us (assuming the media does as well) know it's origination, so when we call him 'Smoke' are we all to be suspended?  labeled as a racist? 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

I doubt a majority actually found the statement "offensive". But I understand the root of what could make this annoying more than anything for people of color. 

 

People have been trying to chip away at Lamar since Day 1 and still continue to try. Whether it was that he should switch to WR or RB or that he just wasn't an NFL player to now where they're trying to say he's purely just a product of a gimmick offense to little things like this about the football meshing with his skin color. He doesn't fit the conditioned perception of a franchise QB. The intelligent, confident, leadership-exuding white guy. That's just the truth. It's in the same vein of how every time we draft a mid-round white offensive lineman, he gets labeled as a "hard-working, blue collar, lunch pail" player or the way a white utility player so often gets called "gritty" or a "grinder". These are pre-concieved biases that 100% exist. 

 

So no, I don't think this guy is a racist and I wouldn't have suspended him. But I can totally understand when not only black people but any fan of Lamar would hear that and roll their eyes and say "here we go again", as they see another attempt at him being chipped away at, whether that was a direct intention or not. 

[london_bills]

2 hours ago, jimmy10 said:

I agree. There should be a uniform standard of empathy and an ability to step outside of one’s own head to consider just for a second how words and actions may be hurtful to others. Instead, we get the old “well then, why can’t *I* say *this*?” as if that makes any damn sense at all. 
 

 

Absolutely. 

 

I think there should also be an acknowledgement of reality. 

 

Thurman Thomas and Jim Kelly do not look the same, part of the reason is skin tone. 

 

There should be the ability to mention an objective fact that someone's skin in a visual sense is darker than a whiter persons skin when making a visual point. The same applies to nfl uniforms but of course the emotion is not involved when discussing this. 

 

The 49ers guy expressed an opinion, argument based on an objective reality. 

 

Emotion should be considered but opinions and healthy discussion should not be outlawed due to emotion. 

[1ManRaid]

Even in today's outrage culture, odd to see that not just get a warning about sensitivity or whatever.  Straight to suspension.  Does he have a history of making similarly dumb comments?

 

Context is dead now.

[DrDawkinstein]

58 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

First off, general comment: I predicted to another mod this thread would be locked by the time I woke up this am.  Instead, I'm proud of my TBD peeps; there's been a good job of airing different views without going off the rails or expanding the scope.

 

 

Here, here. Was proud of how "on the rails" the thread was kept last night. And when I logged in this morning, my butthole puckered at the "8 notifications" indicated as I prepared myself for the worst.... But VERY PROUD of everyone here as the notifications were mostly for innocuous reactions and no quoted posts with flaming replies.

 

Good job, all. No matter what your viewpoint is. If the rest of the country could function like our bunch of dolts here, we'd be making some real progress.

[White Linen]

13 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

The point is dont say anything about skin color being any type of advantage or disadvantage, because it doesnt matter. Or at least not supposed to.

 

 

That's not the point.  Its that we're demanded to believe white skinned people have an advantage.  It's mandatory to believe that.  So the hypocrisy of simply pointing out as an advantage to a black person shouldn't be said?  

 

I'm not insinuating you believe its mandatory but I'm speaking of society in large.  That's what prompted my comment. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

49 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

So no, I don't think this guy is a racist and I wouldn't have suspended him. But I can totally understand when not only black people but any fan of Lamar would hear that and roll their eyes and say "here we go again", as they see another attempt at him being chipped away at, whether that was a direct intention or not. 

 

As far as I know, the guy hasn't been called a racist or suspended 1 day for racist remarks.  They basically said he was thoughtless with his words, and called him a man of high integrity who would do better going forward.  This is the team's statement about it:

 

 

Edit: adding link to SF Chronicle article reporting it

https://www.sfchronicle.com/49ers/article/49ers-suspend-broadcaster-Tim-Ryan-for-saying-14882642.php

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hapless Bills Fan
adding actual SF press article about suspension

[row_33]

31 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

Even in today's outrage culture, odd to see that not just get a warning about sensitivity or whatever.  Straight to suspension.  Does he have a history of making similarly dumb comments?

 

Context is dead now.

 

odd he wasn't fired and finished in announcing on the spot

[Gugny]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Here, here. Was proud of how "on the rails" the thread was kept last night. And when I logged in this morning, my butthole puckered at the "8 notifications" indicated as I prepared myself for the worst.... But VERY PROUD of everyone here as the notifications were mostly for innocuous reactions and no quoted posts with flaming replies.

 

Good job, all. No matter what your viewpoint is. If the rest of the country could function like our bunch of dolts here, we'd be making some real progress.

 

Are you challenging me?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

That's not the point.  Its that we're demanded to believe white skinned people have an advantage.  It's mandatory to believe that.  So the hypocrisy of simply pointing out as an advantage to a black person shouldn't be said?  

 

I'm not insinuating you believe its mandatory but I'm speaking of society in large.  That's what prompted my comment. 

 

It's really difficult to respond to this without broadening the terms of the discussion to society at large, which doesn't belong here.

 

I think the point is, in this instance, Lamar, as a star, Heisman-winning QB, faced a lot of pre-draft criticism and suggestions to change position that many black players and media members felt were spurred in part by racial bias in perceptions.  In that context, comments which appear to attribute his stunning success in part to skin color rather than his skill can seem like more of the same. 

 

The valid point that maybe the lack of contrast made the ball even harder for the 49ers to see could have been made (and perhaps more effectively) without it.

[row_33]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

The valid point that maybe the lack of contrast made the ball even harder for the 49ers to see could have been made (and perhaps more effectively) without it.

 

like when Jim Thorpe's team showed up with football decals sewn on the front of their jerseys?

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, row_33 said:

like when Jim Thorpe's team showed up with football decals sewn on the front of their jerseys?

 

I think I'm "older than dirt" but that incident predates me

 

8 minutes ago, row_33 said:

odd he wasn't fired and finished in announcing on the spot

 

Maybe he wasn't fired and finished in announcing on the spot because context is not dead?  Just a thought.

[row_33]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think I'm "older than dirt" but that incident predates me

 

i had the 100 Great Stories of Football when a kid, i think it was written in 1950

 

another was the home team back in the day provided the doctors for pro football until one day the doctor stitched an injured visiting player's tongue to his cheek

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, row_33 said:

i had the 100 Great Stories of Football when a kid, i think it was written in 1950

another was the home team back in the day provided the doctors for pro football until one day the doctor stitched an injured visiting player's tongue to his cheek

 

Ouch

[row_33]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ouch

 

rumour was the Montreal Canadiens were allowed to open their bench door onto the ice, sometimes hitting the opposing players in stride, allowed to do this until around 1975.

 

and the Flying Wedge in college football killed so many that Teddy Roosevelt threatened to ban football

 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

52 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

That's not the point.  Its that we're demanded to believe white skinned people have an advantage.  It's mandatory to believe that.  So the hypocrisy of simply pointing out as an advantage to a black person shouldn't be said?  

 

I'm not insinuating you believe its mandatory but I'm speaking of society in large.  That's what prompted my comment. 

 

But there ARE certain types of people that have an advantage. There's a reason why the workforce looks the way it does. Whether it's in sports or any business, why do you think the percentage of minorities and females in C-Suite/executive roles is still so low?

 

It's almost crazy and incredibly dismissive based on cold hard facts to say certain people in society haven't been given an advantage. That's not to take away the hard work of white males, but the same hard work could have been put in by minorities and women that just haven't been shown the same opportunities. 

 

Even keeping it purely in sports...look at the way males have been coaching in the WNBA or other female sports, but no women have been hired as head coaches in any of the big pro leagues. Becky Hammon has been an assistant for Greg Popovich for years and has gotten all kinds of accolades...but nobody wants to be that first time that tries this "experiment" of having the first female coach. There are also a few high-ranking female executives in sports that have continuously gotten turned down for GM roles. Meanwhile we see the same recycled failed coaches and GM's that are males get hired over and over and over again. It took a while for minority males to even join that club.

 

You or other people may not want to hear that there are people of advantage in this country and life, but it's simply not true. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by HomeskillitMoorman

[Rocky Landing]

I will say this: San Francisco did fall for the play fake over, and over again, as did I, watching the game.