Top 4 passing QB - No winning records

[teef]

9 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No it is a result of a coaching staff not doing a great job on offense.  I'd have liked to have seen Allen's progress being moved along quicker and believe what we saw the last three games were attainable much earlier with a coaching staff not hellbent on winning games 17-13.  

i'm not sure it works like that.  all qb will develop at their own rate.  the offense may have been kept more conservative to help allen come along, or maybe allen just wasn't/isn't capable yet.  

[VW82]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

If you are looking to passer rating to confirm it, then, Allen has been doing just that for a number of games now.

 

Edit: Since you used Prescott as an example, as I pointed out in a previous post, Allen has a better QB rating that Prescott over the last 8 weeks.

 

Not so coincidentally, fans like me and people covering the league are starting to come around on him.  

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Not so coincidentally, fans like me and people covering the league are starting to come around on him.  

I liked him from the minute hurdled the Vikings player.  I'd have liked to have seen the Bills accelerate the learning curve.  Again how come Kyler Murray could throw for 300+ in his first game and the Bills have gone 45 games without one?

[VW82]

12 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I liked him from the minute hurdled the Vikings player.  I'd have liked to have seen the Bills accelerate the learning curve.  Again how come Kyler Murray could throw for 300+ in his first game and the Bills have gone 45 games without one?

 

I don't understand your 45 games point. Are we talking about Josh or Tyrod or the McD era?? Let's stick to Josh.

 

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player. This year it hasn't happened because our defense is sick and we haven't needed to throw as much. The times where he could have thrown for 300+ like vs. Philly or Cleveland he proved incapable. Will he prove incapable again if given another chance? I tend to think he's shown enough at this point to suggest it's a matter of when, not if.

 

I'm more concerned about his ability to make quick reads and accurate throws from inside the pocket. As was pointed out in another thread, we've done a really good job incorporating roll outs and run & shoot to help get him out of the pocket where he's really effective. Those concepts are putting him in a position to throw for 300. What's going to happen if we play NE in the playoffs and Belichick does what he always does -- makes you have to do the one thing you struggle doing -- and Allen has to stay in the pocket and make plays? To me that's a way more interesting question.      

Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, VW82 said:

 

I don't understand your 45 games point. Are we talking about Josh or Tyrod or the McD era?? 45 games goes back into the Rex era, no? Let's stick to Josh.

 

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player. This year it hasn't happened because our defense is sick and we haven't needed to throw as much. The times where he could have thrown for 300+ like vs. Philly or Cleveland he proved incapable. Will he prove incapable again if given another chance? I tend to think he's shown enough at this point to suggest it's a matter of when, not if.

 

I'm more concerned about his ability to make quick reads and accurate throws from inside the pocket. As was pointed out in another thread, we've done a really good job incorporating roll outs and run & shoot to help get him out of the pocket where he's really effective. Those concepts are putting him in a position to throw for 300. What's going to happen if we play NE in the playoffs and Belichick does what he always does -- makes you have to do the one thing you struggle doing -- and Allen has to stay in the pocket and make plays? To me that's a way more interesting question.      

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

[Albany,n.y.]

On 12/1/2019 at 1:02 PM, whatdrought said:

As important as the QB position is to success in the NFL, I think the narrative about how important QB's are to success it's still somehow overdone.

The difference between a really good QB & a really bad one is about 10 games.  Just look at the 49ers before Garoppolo, with Garoppolo, then without him last year & now with him this year.  Look at Indy with Manning, the year he was out & then Luck's rookie year.  

[oldmanfan]

8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

Good God.  How long do we have to be subjected to your personal gripe about being more entertained by passing yards?  This team is set up to be a balanced offense with a strong D and it works!  And one of the reasons we don’t have a 300 yard game is because it works, because we don’t get so blown out of games we get trash yards.

 

Rational fans care about wins.  Rational fans don’t go back 45 games for some arbitrary reason when you had different QBs and different WRs playing against different teams.  And so on.

 

I like the running game.  Looking at 2018 stats 8 of the top ten running teams were in the playoffs.  Nine of ten look

like they’ll be this year.  But do I continually post thread after thread and post after post and talk about how I will unapologetically continue to post about how we have to hit X rushing yards per game as a factor of success.  No.  Why?  Because it’s wins that matter.  And because I don’t feel the need to exasperate everyone with my personal entertainment preferences.

[VW82]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again this is always the excuse, too raw, too inconsistent, not accurate.......  It is revisionist history in order to validate your point. 

 

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

McD twice considered Peterman the best QB on the team, which to me says it all.

 

How is every team capable of it annually except the Bills?????  

 

McD isn't running the offense, Daboll is. Before that it was Dennison.

 

Our team philosophy is to establish a running game, play mistake free and let the defense do their job which has frequently kept the opposition score down and meant we didn't need to abandon the run. There's part of your answer.

 

Josh being raw last year isn't revisionist history it's generally accepted opinion. You're on an island on this one. Most people thought he was raw coming into the draft. He looked very raw in camp and preseason, and it wasn't until after returning from injury that he started showing consistent ability as a passer, and even then he did a lot of his damage on the ground. It wasn't until this year, and really, post NE that he's started to look like a good NFL QB. 

 

Clearly there's something about Peterman. McD got swindled and then Gruden did the same. McD has done so much else right. Pretty sure we can forgive him for missing on a 5th round pick. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Last year he didn't do it because he was too raw whereas Murray came into the league a much better player.

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

23 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I think more accurate is McD has not been able to have any QB throw for 300 yards in his tenure & every team has done it every year since 2017.

 

I asked elsewhere but perhaps was missed: 

 

----->>>>>>  What is your source that "every team has done this every year since 2017"?  Thanks.

 

I can't defend McDermott against the Peterman charge.  All I can think of is that guy must have Some Stuff in the QB room and the practice field.

I did look and see some evidence that the "every team...every year" thing is false.

[VW82]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

 

To clarify, I meant career game one Murray was a better player than career game one Allen. I don't think it would have mattered what offense you put them in -- Murray was just a little more NFL ready. Today Josh looks like the better player though I know an Arizona fan who would debate that.

Edited December 3, 2019 by VW82

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, VW82 said:

To clarify, I meant career game one Murray was a better player than career game one Allen. I don't think it would have mattered what offense you put them in -- Murray was just a little more NFL ready. Today Josh looks like the better player.

 

With that, I can completely agree.  There is a reason why the "plan" was to have someone else start - it's just that the plan on who that would be, was a Bad Plan.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how different team offenses with new QBs develop as the years pass.  One strategy is to move the NFL team's offense closer to what the QB did in college (Ravens, Cardinals).  Another strategy is to look for a guy who they think can run the pro offense the team wants and give him the time he needs to grow into it (Mahomes, Allen). 

 

Last year, it looked as though KC won the lottery.  This year, it's the Ravens.  Next year?

[Billsfan1972]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a point that Murray may or may not be a better player in the abstract, but he's very much being asked to play in a style of offense where he's already competent and comfortable so he's got a much lower learning curve.

 

I asked elsewhere but perhaps was missed: 

 

----->>>>>>  What is your source that "every team has done this every year since 2017"?  Thanks.

 

I can't defend McDermott against the Peterman charge.  All I can think of is that guy must have Some Stuff in the QB room and the practice field.

I did look and see some evidence that the "every team...every year" thing is false.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

 

Earlier this year when the Bills were in the low 30's, the next nearest Team had gone 11 games between 300 yards passing. 

 

AGAIN EVERY TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING IT EXCEPT THE BILLS....  How is that possible????

Edited December 3, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[teef]

Just now, Billsfan1972 said:

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

 

AGAIN EVERY TEAM CAPABLE OF DOING IT EXCEPT THE BILLS....  How is that possible????

or is the better question why does anyone care?

Edited December 3, 2019 by teef

[prissythecat]

22 minutes ago, teef said:

or is the better question why does anyone care?

 

 

Well obviously BillsFan1972 does as he has been on his 300 crusade since at least 2017 ?   :p

[teef]

22 minutes ago, prissythecat said:

 

 

Well obviously BillsFan1972 does as he has been on his 300 crusade since at least 2017 ?   ?

i suppose we all have to have a hobby.  

[Gugny]

31 minutes ago, teef said:

i suppose we all have to have a hobby.  

 

After Josh's first 300 yard game, I wonder if there will be a 400 yard game crusade to follow.

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

Allen is a dual threat and has been doing well in both areas - and improving almost every week since the NE game. Matter of fact, he has been comparable to Jackson over the same 8 game stretch:

 

PASSING

                  G     Cmp    Att    Inc    Cmp%    Yds      TD    Int    Rate    Sk    Yds    Y/A    AY/A
Jackson    8    127    188    61      67.55    1422    15      3    109.8    11     42    7.56    8.44
Allen          8    146    235    89      62.13    1688    13      2      98.7     18     95    7.18    7.91

 

RUSHING

                     Att    Yds    Y/A    TD    Fmb    FL    FF    FR
Jackson    104    739    7.11     6       5    1    0    2       
Allen            62    299    4.82     5        7    1    0    3

 

He is getting better and will continue to get better

 

That rushing disparity is actually rather large and the reason Jackson is not a good comparison. Allen wowed as a rookie and is still a VERY good rusher, but he's not in the same ballpark as LJ(In THAT category).

 

Again, Allen has been excellent 3 games in a row without getting to or even particularly close to 300.  So in the context of one game, passing yards don't mean much.

 

But the Bills, on a whole, are still averaging just over 21 PPG. So that begs the question; how are they going to increase that long term. They're going to need to gain more yards. Where are those yards going to come from? Well, the running game needs to get better for starters. But so does the passing yardage. Yards don't equal points, but there is a correlation. 

 

I'm super impressed with Allen and I'm close to being sold; but I don't think it's some crazy notion to believe the passing yardage will increase if A) Allen continues to improve and B) the PPG is going to rise, which it needs to overall.

 

300 yard games WILL come if and when Allen take another leap. He's certainly taken a few already.

5 hours ago, ngbills said:

I agree. There is a temporary elite - like a Mahomes that has looked like the best at his position but only in a short time period or even the current obsession with L Jackson. 

 

I think Mahomes is permanent elite-not so sure about LJ.

[billsfan1959]

12 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

That rushing disparity is actually rather large and the reason Jackson is not a good comparison. Allen wowed as a rookie and is still a VERY good rusher, but he's not in the same ballpark as LJ(In THAT category).

 

Again, Allen has been excellent 3 games in a row without getting to or even particularly close to 300.  So in the context of one game, passing yards don't mean much.

 

But the Bills, on a whole, are still averaging just over 21 PPG. So that begs the question; how are they going to increase that long term. They're going to need to gain more yards. Where are those yards going to come from? Well, the running game needs to get better for starters. But so does the passing yardage. Yards don't equal points, but there is a correlation. 

 

I'm super impressed with Allen and I'm close to being sold; but I don't think it's some crazy notion to believe the passing yardage will increase if A) Allen continues to improve and B) the PPG is going to rise, which it needs to overall.

 

300 yard games WILL come if and when Allen take another leap. He's certainly taken a few already.

 

That comparison was for the last 8 games (since the disastrous NE game for Allen, and the 8 game winning streak for Jackson). You are right that there is a huge disparity in the rushing. Nobody is in Jackson's category as a rusher; however, aside from his talent, he also has had almost twice as many rushing attempts as Allen in a Greg Roman system designed specifically to take advantage of his rushing skills.

 

The point was about production. Over that 8 game period Jackson has only 174 more total yards, 3 more total TDs, 1 less turnover, and a 109 passer rating to Allen's 99.

 

The difference, as you pointed out, is in the team scoring. One of the reasons, IMO, is because, for most of this year, the Bills were having drives end between the opponent's 20-40 yard lines with NO points. They have been fantastic in the red zone; however, excluding drives where Allen took a knee to end the game, the Bills have had 30 drives this year end, with no points between the 20-40 yard lines. If they had just kicked a field goal on 67% (20 of the 30 drives) they would be 7th in the NFL in scoring, rather than 19th.

 

That is where Jackson has excelled. By contrast, the Ravens have had just 4 drives all season (Excluding drives where Jackson took a knee to end the game) inside the opponent's 40 yard line end with no points. 

 

Allen and the Bills have gotten better over the last three weeks. They have had only 1 drive inside the opponent's 40 that did not end in points, and that was a missed field goal. They have also averaged over 400 yds and 26 points per game over those 3 games.So, I think they are getting better. I have been really impressed with Allen over the last three weeks and I believe the uptempo no-huddle suits him well. 

[LSHMEAB]

10 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

I have been really impressed with Allen over the last three weeks and I believe the uptempo no-huddle suits him well. 

I've been saying this since early in his rookie season; uptempo lends itself to PLAYING and not thinking. JA is at his best when he's PLAYING. Talent has never been a question. The results speak for themselves since the Cleveland game.

[HappyDays]

On 12/3/2019 at 12:36 PM, DCOrange said:

The top 5 passing offenses in the league this year are:

 

1. Dallas - #4 in points per drive
2. Atlanta - #12 in points per drive
3. Kansas City - #2 in points per drive
4. Tampa Bay - #10 in points per drive
5. LA Rams - #19 in points per drive

3/5 are top 10 offenses and 1 of the remaining is just a tad outside.

 

The combined record of those teams is 29-31.

 

Every year the top rushing teams have the best records. Not because running the ball is more important than passing, but because if you have to pass the ball a lot it's probably because you are behind a lot. If you're running the ball you are winning.

 

Pat Mahomes had the lowest passing yardage of his career over the past 2 games. The Chiefs won both by 7 points and 31 points respectively.

 

You win games with efficient offense and defense. Period. The Cowboys had 426 total yards to our 356 yards. Yet we won because we were efficient on both sides of the ball.

 

I don't know how much more proof you need that this whole talking point is dumb.