The curious case of Jared Goff...

[SoTier]

Goff looks like a decent QB but not a great one which means that he's dependent upon having good/great support around him, including coaching.  I think he's probably on the level of Matt Hasselbeck, Jake Plummer, Carson Palmer, Eli Manning, Matt Schaub, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Derek Carr etc.  The Rams could do a lot worse than Goff.  They could do better ... but Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson don't come along too often.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Maybe he should stop partying  focus on football

https://terezowens.com/is-rams-quarterback-jared-goff-partying-too-hard-in-los-angeles/

 

I think people (including some of the players apparently) don't appreciate the degree to which success at pro-football is all absorbing and requires complete dedication during the season.

 

If you're talented and partying and come in to watch film and practice hung over, you're just not gonna do as well as the guy who is talented, logs a sound night's sleep, and puts extra time in the film room.  Because the talent differential just is not all that large.

[MAJBobby]

 

[Fan in Chicago]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure how to parse this.  The last group (terrible despite good coaches etc) is <90% of starting QBs?  The QB who need a surrounding cast are <90%?

 

 

In fact, I think Dak's track record in his 4 years kind of rises and falls with the quality of his OL, run game, and receivers.

 

I think two things are a bit being conflated here.  There are QB who elevate the quality of their surrounding pieces.  Ryan Fitzpatrick is one of them.  But he's not elite, he's just got charisma that draws players to him and makes them want to elevate their play for him, and enough talent to reward them when they do.

 

Then there are QBs who have truly elite skill levels.  Some of them are also guys who inspire the guys around them and get them to "play up".  But even those guys can't express their skills to the fullest extent without those pieces around them.

 

 

The OP had "...In the article they basically say Goff can only succeed with high end talent around him and a very good OLine and that he struggles when he doesn't have this."

to which Don Otreply said that it is the plight of 90% of QBs. I disagree in that I dont think 90% of QBs can only succeed with a great surrounding cast. There are those that can succeed without and another group which cant succeed no matter what. 

 

 

[Big C]

The thing is, Goff from the beginning never really looked like an NFL QB to me. McVay did everything he could to make it work, and then doubled down on Goff saying stuff like "the QB is the system." Perhaps not, ay? 

 

NFL teams continually fear that they can't afford to let a QB walk. But more often than not they can't afford not to. Because they have to set the market, they can't afford to maintain the line, skill positions, etc. And then all of a sudden the team struggles!

[aristocrat]

they went from having a huge run game last year to it falling off a cliff the last month of the year and getting worse this year.  that run game was setting the tone and goff 

[djp14150]

Its a little too soon to say anything like that....

 

1. look at the offense playmakers outside of QB last yr and this year including injuries

2. running game

3, how the defense has been in terms of start position on drives

4. since the team went to the super bowl last year this is one of the games the opposing team circles to bring their a game

[H2o]

I think Goff's decline this year can be largely attributed to the decline of Todd Gurley. When you go from having an elite RB to a guy who is now pretty average due to the deterioration of his knee it makes a huge difference imo. Teams were never really scared of Goff, but they were scared of Gurley. Now that the running game is less effective Goff isn't showing he can carry the team with his arm. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by H2o

[BillsVet]

39 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Jared Goff may someday be a great study on the "Do's and Don't's" for developing a young Quarterback.

 

By all the accounts that I've read, Goff was brought along on training wheels the first 2 years under Sean McVay.  At some point, McVay should have backed-off and let Goff sink or swim by himself (especially before the team handed him a huge contract extension).  But he didn't, defenses have now adjusted, and they are stuck with a QB who seemingly never learned how to truly play the position.

 

Based on the comments Brian Daboll has made, I think he understands this when it comes to Josh Allen.  There is a thin line between teaching a player, and actually doing his job for him.  Someday it comes back to bite you.

 

Sean McVay reading defenses for the QB was an attempt to hasten their rebuild off the Jeff Fischer years.  Most HC's want to win right away and perhaps the Rams' HC made a judgement call that helping his QB early would ease the transition and win some games.  That worked, but now they're floundering. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

They need to fix the oline - that fixes the offense.  They had an elite oline in 2018, lost a couple players and others regressed.  They were bullying people in their run game a year ago, and this year it's stuck in the mud.

 

Problem - no draft picks, no money. They have 2/3/4/6/7 in 2020, and 2/3/6/7 in 2021.  They paid - Goff, Donald, Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein, and Hekker.  They just traded 2 firsts for Ramsey who is a guaranteed holdout - and will fetch you probably 50 cents on the dollar at this point in draft capital (Whoever acquires him doesn't get a cheap year like you did so i would think you're unlikely to get the same back).  Extending him doesn't eat into space in 2020 but it will be massive in 2021. 

 

You can create space in a few places (Woods, Weddle, base salary reductions) but any extensions, salary bonus deferrals basically result in doubling down on a roster of a non-playoff team with no draft picks.  

 

My friend whos a ticket broker thinks that all of this draft investment etc. was done to sell seat licenses to help pay for the stadium and try and get LA fans.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by dneveu

[SoTier]

2 minutes ago, H2o said:

I think Goff's decline this year can be largely contributed to the decline of Todd Gurley. When you go from having an elite RB to a guy who is now pretty average due to the deterioration of his knee it makes a huge difference imo. Teams were never really scared of Goff, but they were scared of Gurley. Now that the running game is less effective Goff isn't showing he can carry the team with his arm. 

 

Nothing helps any QB -- great/good/mediocre/bad -- play up to the best of his ability than playing behind a good/great OL and sharing the backfield with a stud RB.

[Kirby Jackson]

Both Goff and McVay have been overrated for a while. 

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

Not really...elite QBs make everyone around them better. Goff needs elite players around him to be better. Huge difference.

  The Todd Collins of this generation.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

3 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Nothing helps any QB -- great/good/mediocre/bad -- play up to the best of his ability than playing behind a good/great OL and sharing the backfield with a stud RB.

 

Matt Hasselbeck comes to mind... Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson... as well as Shaun Alexander to the tune of 1800 yards.  

[SoTier]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

They need to fix the oline - that fixes the offense.  They had an elite oline in 2018, lost a couple players and others regressed.  They were bullying people in their run game a year ago, and this year it's stuck in the mud.

 

Problem - no draft picks, no money. They have 2/3/4/6/7 in 2020, and 2/3/6/7 in 2021.  They paid - Goff, Donald, Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein, and Hekker.  They just traded 2 firsts for Ramsey who is a guaranteed holdout - and will fetch you probably 50 cents on the dollar at this point in draft capital (Whoever acquires him doesn't get a cheap year like you did so i would think you're unlikely to get the same back).  Extending him doesn't eat into space in 2020 but it will be massive in 2021. 

 

You can create space in a few places (Woods, Weddle, base salary reductions) but any extensions, salary bonus deferrals basically result in doubling down on a roster of a non-playoff team with no draft picks.  

 

I agree with this but their biggest needs -- OL and RB -- can be successfully filled through the draft outside the first round.   They might not get a Quenton Nelson or Saquan Barkley but they could very well find a Cordy Glenn or Alvin Kamara.   I don't know what Doug Whaley is doing now, but the Rams also might consider hiring him as a consultant to help evaluate mid/low priced FA veterans. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, SoTier said:

 

I agree with this but their biggest needs -- OL and RB -- can be successfully filled through the draft outside the first round.   They might not get a Quenton Nelson or Saquan Barkley but they could very well find a Cordy Glenn or Alvin Kamara.   I don't know what Doug Whaley is doing now, but the Rams also might consider hiring him as a consultant to help evaluate mid/low priced FA veterans. 

 

Whaley's gettin that XFL money.

[H2o]

11 minutes ago, dneveu said:

They need to fix the oline - that fixes the offense.  They had an elite oline in 2018, lost a couple players and others regressed.  They were bullying people in their run game a year ago, and this year it's stuck in the mud.

 

Problem - no draft picks, no money. They have 2/3/4/6/7 in 2020, and 2/3/6/7 in 2021.  They paid - Goff, Donald, Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein, and Hekker.  They just traded 2 firsts for Ramsey who is a guaranteed holdout - and will fetch you probably 50 cents on the dollar at this point in draft capital (Whoever acquires him doesn't get a cheap year like you did so i would think you're unlikely to get the same back).  Extending him doesn't eat into space in 2020 but it will be massive in 2021. 

 

You can create space in a few places (Woods, Weddle, base salary reductions) but any extensions, salary bonus deferrals basically result in doubling down on a roster of a non-playoff team with no draft picks.  

I remember a lot of people on here praising the Rams for their approach. Trade your picks, go all in now, blah, blah, blah. Now the flaw in that is being exposed. Yes, they had a couple year run, but they have been irresponsible with their cap and have stunted their growth in the future with the lack of day 1 and even day 2 picks. They gave us a 2nd for Watkins and let him walk. Now they gave up two 1st's and a 4th for a guy who holds all the leverage at the end of this year. If they were smart they would have kept Peters and Talib, rode out the season, and would have had much more flexibility while still retaining those high end picks. Some FO's are so short sighted that they make rash decisions and the Rams are the epitome of buyer's remorse at the moment.  

Edited November 26, 2019 by H2o

[atlbillsfan1975]

Reminds me of Derek Anderson’s second year in the league. One good season and never got close to it again. 

[Big Turk]

20 minutes ago, dneveu said:

They need to fix the oline - that fixes the offense.  They had an elite oline in 2018, lost a couple players and others regressed.  They were bullying people in their run game a year ago, and this year it's stuck in the mud.

 

Problem - no draft picks, no money. They have 2/3/4/6/7 in 2020, and 2/3/6/7 in 2021.  They paid - Goff, Donald, Gurley, Cooks, Woods, Higbee, Havenstein, and Hekker.  They just traded 2 firsts for Ramsey who is a guaranteed holdout - and will fetch you probably 50 cents on the dollar at this point in draft capital (Whoever acquires him doesn't get a cheap year like you did so i would think you're unlikely to get the same back).  Extending him doesn't eat into space in 2020 but it will be massive in 2021. 

 

You can create space in a few places (Woods, Weddle, base salary reductions) but any extensions, salary bonus deferrals basically result in doubling down on a roster of a non-playoff team with no draft picks.  

 

My friend whos a ticket broker thinks that all of this draft investment etc. was done to sell seat licenses to help pay for the stadium and try and get LA fans.  

 

Ramsey agreed not to holdout as part of the trade

Edited November 26, 2019 by matter2003

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, H2o said:

I remember a lot of people on here praising the Rams for their approach. Trade your picks, go all in now, blah, blah, blah. Now the flaw in that is being exposed. Yes, they had a couple year run, but they have been irresponsible with their cap and have stunted their growth in the future with the lack of day 1 and even day 2 picks. They gave us a 2nd for Watkins and let him walk. Now they gave up two 1st's and a 4th for a guy who holds all the leverage at the end of this year. If they were smart they would have kept Peters and Talib, rode out the season, and would have had much more flexibility while still retaining those high end picks. Some FO's are so short sighted that they make rash decisions and the Rams are the epitome of buyer's remorse at the moment.  

 

4 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

I agree with this but their biggest needs -- OL and RB -- can be successfully filled through the draft outside the first round.   They might not get a Quenton Nelson or Saquan Barkley but they could very well find a Cordy Glenn or Alvin Kamara.   I don't know what Doug Whaley is doing now, but the Rams also might consider hiring him as a consultant to help evaluate mid/low priced FA veterans. 

 

I mean - do you trade ramsey? You're just making a new hole at CB.  25 mil in cap space and the following players are free agents

 

As for biggest holes - they have a ton and even carrying over the freed up space from 2019 - they have 25 million to work with.

 

Fowler - starting De - will get paid

Whitworth - Starting LT - Probably retiring

Brockers - Starting DT next to donald

Littleton - Starting inside linebacker

Austin Blythe - Starting Center at the moment

Zuerlein - kickers in the NFL are hard to come by and he's got a 50+ leg to boot.

 

They'll likely have to try and flip their... 4 picks into 6 lower picks.  I could see them trading woods, weddle, or NRC to try and a- create space and b- get some more picks because they have needs all over the place.