Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 No, but so what. All NFL contracts are outlandish. Firefighters, policemen and of course our troops in our armed forces are paid far less and are true warriors. Read my lips- No NFL Player Is Paid At The Level of His Value! However, this is a question of market worth and compared to what the market offers today, the Bills deal for Schobel compared to his production is a bargain for us. The details are not know yet and will not be known for sure until next year when the NFL and NFLPA force the release of real numbers so they can keep an eye on each other. However, it seems clear that Schobel has gotten smaller payouts and caps hits that Wistrom, Ogunleye and Kearse. DEs who play a similar role on their teams to Schobel and even for those who produce more than him they are paid more as well. Even better though the Kearse output is significantly higher than Schobel (and the contracts reflect that) the injury history all works in Schobel's favor. Great move by TD from all I hear. The question now is Jennings and/or Williams. I actually expect nothing to happen with contract for either (though I will be overjoyed if I am wrong since the clear TD MO is to only sign when it is a good deal forthe Bills and the cap). In keeping Edwards, Bannan and acquiring Anderson it looks to me like the Bills are setting up for a future after Williams and Adams. The flirtation with Gibson seems consistent with this shopping. Jennings's future may actually be determined by the talk from him being an interest in leaving Buffalo and going home to the South. In acquiring members of the OL, the Bills are in disarray so there is a lot to be said for keeping your own. However, the Bills have made a point of signing players like Teague and Tucker who have a history of playing tackle. I think like the rest of the NFL they will overpay to keep the right tackle, however, Jennings history with injury provides indications that despite the quality of his play when he is in uniform he may not be the right guy to overpay. In both cases, I see TD signing them if they will take a cheap contract, but if not then he will let them go.
bills_fan Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 I do hope that TD signed big Pat. I know Pat wants to stay a Bill and really you can't underestimate the value of big behemoth DT's like Pat and Sam on the roster and how they tie up blockers and keep them off the LBs. Bannan/Anderson/Edwards aren't big enough to do that. At least we can keep our D intact, which is the heart of the team. JJ will not sign with us. I just have a feeling on that one. We're gonna need a LT next year. Maybe McNally gets MW in shape to be a LT and we need a RT. Maybe we sign one or even draft one in the 2nd round (JJ was a 3rd rounder remember). Or, maybe thats when TD deals Henry or McGahee for a top 5 pick and takes the next Gallery. All of these are possibilities.
ch19079 Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 pat is getting up in years, and has little pass rush abilty. that said, he is a beast in the run D. we need this guy. maybe he will sign a low cap hit, high insentive contract.... that would be awsome. but i dont see that happening untill next offseason. jennings keeps getting injured, so he hasnt been able to show his ability the past few years. hes a good solid OT, and a keeper, but with the money other OTs are getting, i dout he will take a cap friendly contract. i say sign him if hes asking for a resonable price, but otherwise, hit the market for a good OT. the way its looking there shoudl be 2 probowlers out next offseason, if we are willing to pay 7-8 mil a year for them...
ARGB52 Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Jennings is still very young. He is a must signing for us. It takes too long to develope O- lineman. It does not matter if he is a true LT or not, he is an excelent young lineman that can play more then one position. Pat is not a must signing because of age. I would like to sign him but if he ask for too much then I would think we would let him go.
BillsSouth Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Schobel was a good signing if only because we don´t have any other viable alternatives at RDE. He was not overpaid, but he didn´t come cheap. He got Grant Wistrom money (except for the SB), which is excessive for both. But it would be tougher to sign him next year. $5 million tougher, I guess.
BillsSouth Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Schobel was a good signing if only because we don´t have any other viable alternatives at RDE. He was not overpaid, but he didn´t come cheap. He got Grant Wistrom money (except for the SB), which is excessive for both. But it would be tougher to sign him next year. $5 million tougher, I guess.
Dr. Fong Posted September 8, 2004 Posted September 8, 2004 Any time you can get a player without bringing in other bidders, who will likely overpay to get talent on their team, it's a good deal. Good move and fair deal for both sides.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 9, 2004 Author Posted September 9, 2004 I think both PW and JJ are "prefer to sign" rather than "must-signs" for the following reasons: 1. It's a long season and JJ's injury history and PW's age both make putting up big bucks for either player while they are still under contract a big risk- True risk is a big part of what this league is about and the good GM is thinking a season ahead, but the future is now like never before and what seems like a good move can become a disaster in the blink of an ACL. The Bills certainly should sign a great deal for to extend either player (ala the signing of Henry) but the team should not mortgage the ranch and the dog to long-term players that have a history of injury or are getting long in the tooth without good reason like a caddillac deal for us as long as we have them under contract for right here, right now. 2. TD has set things up so their are alternatives if they don't sign- The Schobel deal was a big deal for us because even today we lack really clear alternatives for back-up RDEs (using the two-headed LDEs as back-up and the Ritzman experiment seem to be the two alternatives. Though JJ and Big Pat are clearly better than there back-ups. Price has answered the call nicely when he has played, Teague has had successful experiences at LDE in Denver, Tucker has played some tackle in the NFL before, McFarland will get a chance to learn and show his stuff, MW was always talked about as eventually moving to LDE before his non-football problems and he has a year to right his game and even PS guy Sobieski excelled atthe position in college. We'd PREFER to sign JJ for the right price but there are a number of alternatives which even is individually slim together are far better than a making him a :must-sigh" at a bad price. Likewise at DT. PW is far better than what his back-ups have shown, but Edwards was a starter before in this league and continues his slow progress forward, Bannan was kept for a reason and his rookie year performance gives some hope, Anderson was drafted as a big deal and will get a chance to prove himself. In addition, the Bills will get all out of Adams they can and have still flirted with folks like Gibson so they are looking if necessary. 3. TD obviously plays the "bird-in-the-hand" well- He certainly overpaid for Milloy because the market demanded that he must as the demand was high enough (Chicago among other teams had cap room and need and the supply at that point late before the season began was simply Milloy). However, from Henry, to Adams to Schobel, TD has shown the ability to fashion contrafts and cajole players into coming to Buffalo for reported amounts which are quite kind to the Bills. He paid Takeo a lot but the deal was fair and paid off with him meriting a Pro Bowl. The WM deal looks pretty good and all signs point to him being on track to potentially become a top 5 draft choice taken by the Bills in the 20s. Moorman is locked up for a long time at a relative song. I love PW and have hopes for JJ in a OL in disarray, but i would not put either of these two in the must-sign category.
BuffaloBob Posted September 9, 2004 Posted September 9, 2004 Schobel was a good signing if only because we don´t have any other viable alternatives at RDE. He was not overpaid, but he didn´t come cheap. He got Grant Wistrom money (except for the SB), which is excessive for both. But it would be tougher to sign him next year. $5 million tougher, I guess. 22509[/snapback] Actually, he was MUCH cheaper than Wistrom! Wistrom got 33 million over six years with a 14 million dollar signing bonus., which is an average of $5.5 Million per year. Schobel signed a five year extension which makes his deal 6 years for roughly $23 Million and a $6.75 Million signing bonus. That makes Schobel's deal an average of $3.8 Million per year! That is nearly 1/3 chepaer than Wistrom. Moreover, the differnce in the signing bonus is also huge in its impact. That signing bonus Wistrom got means he is an albatross on the Seahawks (oh wait a minute, is an albatross a seahawk or just a big sea bird? LOL!) at the rate of $2.33 Million per year. If he is cut even after three more years, his dead cap space is $7 Million and it might even increase the Seahawks cap hit to release him!! If for someone reason Schobel was released after three years, his dead cap space is less than half of that and we'd probably free up cap space, too! The Wistrom and Schobel deals are miles apart, not only in terms of total value but especially with regard to the nature of their impact on the cap. TD did good on this one.
BuffaloBob Posted September 9, 2004 Posted September 9, 2004 BTW, this is precisely why people with no patience also have no aptitude for being a GM. TD's patience and his negotiating tactics got us a damn good cap friendly deal here.
ajzepp Posted September 9, 2004 Posted September 9, 2004 We don't have to worry about re-signing Jonas......we can just move Pucillo to L Tackle
jarthur31 Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Why does this thread even exist? I don't understand how we overpaid for Aaron.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted September 10, 2004 Author Posted September 10, 2004 Why does this thread even exist? I don't understand how we overpaid for Aaron. 24532[/snapback] I think this thread exists because some folks are actually so deadset against Donohoe that there was some attempt when this signing occured to switch from complaining about Donohoe not signing Schobel and the two other potential high value FAs to then complain that he had overpaid for an "average" DE. I think relatively quickly (and particularly as the reported total value of the Schobel contract drops and people are factoring in the cost at 6 years because it is an extension) folks are seeing that this is a pretty good deal for the Bills even if Schobel is only average and quite frankly a steal if he has a break-out year (which is far from guaranteed but certainly possible). It amazes me how many folks seem to have a hard-on against TD. He sure ain't perfect, but he has been quite good at a number of facets of his job. Certainly a on one hand and on the other assessment of him is most accurate rather than the declarations of some posters of him as a total loser. I think this thread is a call to TD Haters to simply get a clue. There are enough things he can improve without folks manufacturering stupid arguments.
Dawgg Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 I was initially opposed to the signing when I heard it was between $28 and $32MM... however with recent figures pointing to the $23MM range, I think that's reasonable. I don't think Schobel is a great player, but he's pretty solid. I also think Pat Williams is a crucial signing for this team. He is a disruptive force, does a lot fo dirty work and is the type of player whose value you will only realize when he is no longer there. If Donahoe was truly preparing for his departure, he should have chosen Wilfork in the first round. The Pats used him to replace Big Ted. The Pats did just that, locked him up for 6 years at a cheap price, and he already played a major role in helping them win yesterday. You replace good players with players who have a chance to be just as good. Justin Bannan is not that type of player, nor is Ron Edwards. Tim Anderson looks solid, but the jury is still out. Pat Williams may be getting up there in age, but he has proven durable over the many years and there is no reason he can't contribute for another 3. I think this thread exists because some folks are actually so deadset against Donohoe that there was some attempt when this signing occured to switch from complaining about Donohoe not signing Schobel and the two other potential high value FAs to then complain that he had overpaid for an "average" DE. I think relatively quickly (and particularly as the reported total value of the Schobel contract drops and people are factoring in the cost at 6 years because it is an extension) folks are seeing that this is a pretty good deal for the Bills even if Schobel is only average and quite frankly a steal if he has a break-out year (which is far from guaranteed but certainly possible). It amazes me how many folks seem to have a hard-on against TD. He sure ain't perfect, but he has been quite good at a number of facets of his job. Certainly a on one hand and on the other assessment of him is most accurate rather than the declarations of some posters of him as a total loser. I think this thread is a call to TD Haters to simply get a clue. There are enough things he can improve without folks manufacturering stupid arguments. 25725[/snapback]
a player to be named later Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Great value on Schobel. PW should be signed, like you all have said before, hes been solid, pay the man his money. I was thinking about J.J. and I think that it might be a good move to franchise him, trade him. If he improves at all this season, we might be able to get a 2nd or maybe 1st for him. Even if we kept him for one more year with the franchise label, or if we used the extra time to barter a deal, I think it would be a good move. OUT
ExWNYer Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Any time you can get a player without bringing in other bidders, who will likely overpay to get talent on their team, it's a good deal. Good move and fair deal for both sides. 22522[/snapback] FWIW, I concur.
ganesh Posted September 10, 2004 Posted September 10, 2004 Pat Williams may be getting up there in age, but he has proven durable over the many years and there is no reason he can't contribute for another 3. 25880[/snapback] Pat feels that this is going to be his biggest pay day as this will be his last contract and wants to hit the jackpot on it....My feeling is TD is asking him to play for a incentive based contract (a la Sam Adams type contract) and PW has balked at it. The chances of us holding on to Pat Williams next year is pretty slim, especially if we do manage to re-sign Jennings. May be Eric Moulds will adjust his Cap # (which is something like 7M for next year) and the deal will get done...Of course if PW has a down year, then he looses all the leverage...
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