Was Daboll talking Allen through pre-snap coverages yesterday?

[Richard Noggin]

49 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wait.  We incorporate a ton of RPOs?  Help me out here @Buffalo716 @GunnerBill @thebandit27 @YoloinOhio

 

Perhaps I would not know an RPO if it bit me on the buttocks, but I do not see 'em much less a "Ton"

OK, maybe I've seen 1-2 plays a game that I thought were RPO, but usually I think it's Daboll faking the run on what's really a pass play all the way.

I definitely saw at least 2-3 RPOs yesterday, and it surprised me enough that my viewing group discussed it for a bit during the game. 

 

Doesn't mean Daboll hasn't called them previously; but something about the design or execution of them yesterday really stood out in real time...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

I definitely saw at least 2-3 RPOs yesterday, and it surprised me enough that my viewing group discussed it for a bit during the game. 

Doesn't mean Daboll hasn't called them previously; but something about the design or execution of them yesterday really stood out in real time...

 

OK, so in retrospect I think I remember 1-2

You and your viewing group saw 2-3

 

Bills had 67 offensive plays on Sunday

 

What would constitute "a ton" to you?  More than 3 out of 67 plays, I would think.

 

My understanding is that an RPO is a good way to overcome teams stacking the box to stop the run, which seems like an alternative we need, because Allen is not at a point where he can carry the team on his arm against good physical man coverage where our WR struggle to get open or are being mauled. 

 

So I'm all for it.  I'm just surprised to learn we're running it "a ton"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

This. He began last season in the booth, then came down to help the rookie. 

At least, that's my memory of it, too.

Maybe fearlessness includes not holding the QB's hand on the sideline on game day?

 

I dunno about "handholding", but last season we had a WR coach coaching QBs - he may be an excellent coach, but he doesn't have that "been there experienced that" perspective.  Until a good way into the season, we had no experienced vet QB who knew the system.  So Allen would come off the field and be on his own looking at pictures and trying to figure things out.  It made a lot of sense to bring Daboll out of the booth and have him on the sideline to interact and provide feedback.

 

We have a real QB coach and a vet backup familiar with the system to talk things through with Allen, so it makes sense to move Daboll back up where he can see more and perhaps get the playcalls in more quickly

 

I really have the feeling that McDermott encouraged, if not directed, Daboll to explore this alternative after the "operational issue" that cost time vs the Browns.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wait.  We incorporate a ton of RPOs?  Help me out here @Buffalo716 @GunnerBill @thebandit27 @YoloinOhio

 

Perhaps I would not know an RPO if it bit me on the buttocks, but I do not see 'em much less a "Ton"

OK, maybe I've seen 1-2 plays a game that I thought were RPO, but usually I think it's Daboll faking the run on what's really a pass play all the way.

I haven't actually counted how many times we run it a game but it looks like a few to me. Maybe 3-5... Definitely don't think around 10

 

Allen will usually ride the fake longer on an RPO where he usually has a quicker real play fake

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 hours ago, TroutDog said:

Here’s an option: let Josh develop in the trajectory you expected him to. I’d prefer no Bellicheat theatrics in this organization. Can it help with a single win against an inferior opponent? Sure! But that’s not the point with Josh. 
 

Everyone has to be thinking about the long game (a golf reference for the uninitiated)...next year and beyond. 

It's not cheating.

We don't even now if it made a difference.  And how do you know even if it did help that it would stunt his growth long term.

Win now by any means necessary, worry about tomorrow another day

[billspro]

5 hours ago, CommonCents said:

Hmm, Archuleta was slamming the Bills

and Allen for repeatedly snapping the ball

with so much time left on the play clock when up by 10.

 

It makes more sense now. 

 

Thats an old school take. If your confident go score points and win the game. 

[DefenseWins]

I thought that Morse was allegedly the one responsible for calling out the protections? I also noticed on several occasions that our right guard seemed to be getting out of his stance and pointing at the defenders - what would that have been about?

 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, matter2003 said:

 

This article disputes that...it claims McVay has adjusted to virtually everything that has been done to slow them down and that Goff is holding them back because he hasn't been able to execute well enough...

 

This is from 3 games into the season but i think its gotten worse not better mostly for Goff...

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2019/09/sean-mcvay-jared-goff-super-bowl-adjustments-patriots/amp

 

The article is wrong. The offense is a mess the scheme has been worked out. McVay has now basically abandoned his scheme. Goff is not blameless, but the problems in LA start with coaching. 

[CommonCents]

3 hours ago, eball said:

I disagree, the Bills were actually playing aggressively and not sitting on a 10-pt lead with most of the 4th quarter remaining. I’d wager it had zero to do with Daboll calling coverages for him. 
 

Good god, the conspiracy theories some will reach for around here. 

Conspiracy theories around here? I don’t think any of us here posed the original question. I couldn’t care less either way, after Archuleta’s comments I did notice how early in the play clock they were snapping the ball. 

 

Posters had mentioned that if they snapped the ball with 15 plus seconds that would essentially keep the mic open, that does align with what they were doing. I think it’s an interesting observation. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Wait.  We incorporate a ton of RPOs?  Help me out here @Buffalo716 @GunnerBill @thebandit27 @YoloinOhio

 

Perhaps I would not know an RPO if it bit me on the buttocks, but I do not see 'em much less a "Ton"

OK, maybe I've seen 1-2 plays a game that I thought were RPO, but usually I think it's Daboll faking the run on what's really a pass play all the way.

 

We certainly do not run a "ton" of RPO. There was an uptick on Sunday but nowhere near a "ton". 

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Realistically I hope that isn't the case

 

Mcvay has stunted Goffs growth as a true QB because he has always made the calls for him

 

It's easy to defend against too... Just disguise your coverage until under 15 seconds on the clock

 

You need to be able to see things pre and post snap and be able to recognize them

 

 

Disguising your coverage till under 15 seconds would work ... unless you snap when they start to change their alignment.

 

And while I'm willing to believe that McVay might've stunted Goff's growth, I'm pretty sure there might be a way to do it so that doesn't happen. For instance, have Daboll talk to him over the next three or four games and get Allen used to how Daboll thinks ... and then taper off gradually. Maybe gradually change from telling him what you see to asking him questions about what he sees. I think that might be very helpful for his development. Potentially, anyway.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Doc Brown]

7 hours ago, stony said:

Whatever it was, it worked. I prefer Daboll up high on game days. 

Until Allen has a bad game and then he needs to be back on the sidelines  

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Doc Brown

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, eball said:

I disagree, the Bills were actually playing aggressively and not sitting on a 10-pt lead with most of the 4th quarter remaining. I’d wager it had zero to do with Daboll calling coverages for him. 
 

Good god, the conspiracy theories some will reach for around here. 

 

 

You can play aggressively without sacrificing your ability to run the clock down. No matter how aggressive your play calls are, running the clock down when we were ahead by two possessions simply makes sense. We should have been doing it.

 

This is about the only theory that makes sense as to why we should have been snapping so fast.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, so in retrospect I think I remember 1-2

You and your viewing group saw 2-3

 

Bills had 67 offensive plays on Sunday

 

What would constitute "a ton" to you?  More than 3 out of 67 plays, I would think.

 

My understanding is that an RPO is a good way to overcome teams stacking the box to stop the run, which seems like an alternative we need, because Allen is not at a point where he can carry the team on his arm against good physical man coverage where our WR struggle to get open or are being mauled. 

 

So I'm all for it.  I'm just surprised to learn we're running it "a ton"

 

 

Fair enough either way, IMO.

 

If it's less than, say, five, that's less than a ton ... 

 

... unless you compare it to teams across the NFL. How often does Atlanta run RPO? Or Denver? Are we a top ten RPO team in terms of percentages? Top seven? And if we are, isn't that a ton?

 

Could go either way, I think. But whatever, really.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

Until Allen has a bad game and then he needs to be back on the sidelines  

 

 

 

Heh heh. Yup.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It is part of the reason. Though the Rams were never a gimmick offense. They weren't the Bears. The Rams were running a quite traditional offense with lots of window dressing. 

 

The much bigger part of the reason Goff looks lost is McVay is lost. His offense has been worked out and forced him to adjust and he can't. Goff needs to play better but go watch the all 22 of a Rams game the past 6 weeks..... nobody can get open and there are not creases for the run game. 

 

Could say the same for the other wunderkind, pederson.

[TroutDog]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

It's not cheating.

We don't even now if it made a difference.  And how do you know even if it did help that it would stunt his growth long term.

Win now by any means necessary, worry about tomorrow another day

I grasp it’s not cheating but isn’t allowing him to read the D himself...which he needs to learn to do as quickly as possible. 

[Max Fischer]

9 hours ago, CommonCents said:

Hmm, Archuleta was slamming the Bills

and Allen for repeatedly snapping the ball

with so much time left on the play clock when up by 10.

 

It makes more sense now. 

 

The broadcast team was wrong on clock management. There was a lot of time left, only up 10 and the Bills were clearly playing better in the uptempo offense. Bills were playing to win and good practice if ever in the same position versus teams that could easy score two touchdowns in eight minutes. 

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, london_bills said:

If memory serves me correctly Daboll started out in the booth, when results weren't there he came down to 'hold players accountable' from what I remember mcdermott saying. 

 

Sort of.  Daboll started in the booth, but as Josh was a Rookie and Peterman was the Back-up - there was not a good coaching/veteran presence to talk through looks with Josh and work to correct issues.

 

He moved to the sidelines for better more direct communication with Josh especially right after series.

 

Now they have a Veteran QB (limited starts, but experienced) and Ken Dorsey on the sidelines to discuss things with Josh.  Thy are free to move Daboll up to the booth and still get the correct communication after the series.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

57 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Could say the same for the other wunderkind, pederson.

 

Agree - although I do put a little more blame on Wentz there than I do on Goff in LA. Wentz is holding the ball far too long, missing guys running open and trying to force the deep ball rather than taking the plays that are there. The Eagles skill players beyond Ertz are not great and I am not sure Wentz has a lot of trust in them that may be playing a part, Pederson not really seeming to have a feel for what his team does well has an effect but Wentz needs to play better too.

[eball]

46 minutes ago, TroutDog said:

I grasp it’s not cheating but isn’t allowing him to read the D himself...which he needs to learn to do as quickly as possible. 

 

It would be nice if folks don't just run with the assumption that Daboll is reading coverages for Josh when there is no proof of it, only an internet rumor.