H2o Posted November 18, 2019 Author Posted November 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: To be fair to Foles: -I don't think what Philly ran on Foles 1st or 2nd appearances with them, was exactly an RPO offense, nor was it "the same system" 2013 with Shurmur/Kelly vs 2017 with Reich/Pederson. What's consistent to both is that both coaches/OCs tried to figure out what Foles did well and focus on that, while working specific focused drills with him to help overcome deficiencies. -"Wildly inconsistant everywhere else" comes down to "sucked with the St Louis Rams in 2015. What has to be understood about the 2015 Rams is that coaching-wise and especially on offense, they were a Giant Sound of Suckage emerging from a Sucking Suckhole of Epic Suckitude. -Foles started 1 game for Reid in KC in 2015, and played well. 410 yds, 3 TDs, 0 INTs. Did I happen mention the Rams coaching sucked in 2015? I mean, think about it...in 2017, the two winning QB contending for the NFC Conference Championship Game (Case Keenum and Nick Foles) had both played for the Rams and legit totally sucked in 2015. Wrap your mind around that for a moment and let it sink in. Here you have a QB who is capable of winning a SB against Bill Belicheck**** and Tom Brady***, and another QB who is capable of QB'ing a team to an 11-5 season in which he throws 22 TDs and 7 INTs with 67.6% completions --- and on the 2015 Rams their performances both sucked. Coaching matters. Truth on the coaching. Jeff Fisher, that's all you have to say. It is a West Coast type of system that Philly runs, but there are a lot of RPO concepts within that. It's not the same RPO that Roman runs by any means, but a lot of the reads and route concepts are still the same without the QB keeping the ball anywhere near as much in Philly. Like you said, tailor the game to the QB's strengths. A lot of times it is what makes or breaks the career path of many of these young QB's.
May Day 10 Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Big74Mac said: Here's the deal. For now he is fine and exciting. Once he gets hurt and cannot run all over the place the question will be, can he become a pocket passer later in his career? If he can do that, he can be great for a long time. His current style of play is not sustainable. It will work for a while and may very well be a super bowl year for them. In the long run we will be better off with Allen because he should still be playing ten years from now for us while Jackson is out of the league AKA RGIII style. I agree with this. If its not a concussion(s), it will be a torn knee, broken ribs, separated shoulder, collarbone, etc. Jackson will lose a step (and time) with each injury. This day and age, these guys hit too hard and you do not want your QB taking hits. You also take the risk, especially in that AFC North of someone taking a cheap shot. Allen takes too much contact for my liking. I like the Tom Brady level of sustainability by not putting his body in danger. I do not believe Lamar Jackson has the brains to be anything other than a human highlight reel QB. If/when he is hobbled, he will be in big trouble. But yeah, I was wrong so far. I didnt think he would get far out of the gate and absolutely did not want the Bills to touch him
ColoradoBills Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 3 hours ago, RoboTronic said: All the draft experts were fooled by Jackson. The "experts" get fooled a lot.
Tesla03 Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Big74Mac said: Here's the deal. For now he is fine and exciting. Once he gets hurt and cannot run all over the place the question will be, can he become a pocket passer later in his career? If he can do that, he can be great for a long time. His current style of play is not sustainable. It will work for a while and may very well be a super bowl year for them. In the long run we will be better off with Allen because he should still be playing ten years from now for us while Jackson is out of the league AKA RGIII style. who says Allen will be here 10 years from now lol. that's a rather ambitious statement. lets see how he does in the final stretch here before making comments like this.
starrymessenger Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 I loved Jackson coming out but I figured that he'd be a very hard sell in Buffalo after Tyrod, although it was, or should have been, clear that he was a huge upgrade. Not only was he a better runner than Tyrod even in his prime but his college tape offered the legitimate possibility of his being immeasurably superior as a passer. He has Mike Vick wheels while again with the potential to be a better passer than Vick in his early career ( though in fairness to Vick he at first had only a fat A. Crumpler to throw to). Right now Lamar looks to be the kid born with the silver spoon in his mouth benefitting, unlike Josh or Darnold, from all the advantages a privileged upbringing can confer - Roman, Harbaugh, a great front office, a good O-line, TE and WRs (not to mention a top D that will help put the ball in his hands). The suggestion that he cannot throw to wide receivers is erroneous IMO. Ravens are bringing him along properly in his, and their, passing game. Last year his was exclusively a running QB. This year the passing game is opening up albeit not fully but, over time the expectation that it will is not at all unreasonable. As he develops they will lighten up with the designed runs, RPOs and read options (although he will always be a threat to run). If they don't he might not have the lengthy career he should enjoy even if he is good at avoiding impactful hits. I think the Ravens are too smart for that to happen, especially because the payoff will greater if he refines his skills throwing the football. I think they believe he can do it. I saw him throw a thirty yard strike to the back of the end zone (Hollywood?) off his back foot falling backwards to avoid a rushing D lineman. There are only two other QBs that I've seen do that sort of thing: AR and PM. Having said all that, I would not be at all surprised either if over time the performance gap separating Lamar and Josh (or Darnold) narrows considerably. They may very well all turn into good, possibly very good QBs.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, May Day 10 said: If its not a concussion(s), it will be a torn knee, broken ribs, separated shoulder, collarbone, etc. Jackson will lose a step (and time) with each injury. This day and age, these guys hit too hard and you do not want your QB taking hits. You also take the risk, especially in that AFC North of someone taking a cheap shot. Allen takes too much contact for my liking. I like the Tom Brady level of sustainability by not putting his body in danger. What you say about injury risk is true, but it applies to all QBs. Bradford is certainly the Poster Child for a QB whose career never-was due to injury, and he's a classic pocket passer. Pocket QBs also take big hits - maybe bigger hits than a rushing guy. Mason Rudolph was knocked out cold in the pocket, was he not? Roman made the point, "when Jackson runs, he's in total control". Some of the worst contact Allen takes is hits in the pocket. I think injuries are a wild card for any QB. 2 minutes ago, May Day 10 said: I do not believe Lamar Jackson has the brains to be anything other than a human highlight reel QB. If/when he is hobbled, he will be in big trouble. John Harbaugh who is coaching him says "he's very intelligent".
RoboTronic Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: The "experts" get fooled a lot. Talent evaluation is a tough thing. There is no science to it, it's so random on who will translate well, what kids will grow up, what kids will not grow up, etc. 1
The Frankish Reich Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, ticketssince61 said: I did not think that his style of play and coming from Louisville would translate well to NFL, but (Probably been mentioned in some of the other replies) a) he has very good talent (and coaching) around him b) my big concern is if he can continue to take the pounding (although he does seem to be able to avoid taking the big hits) . Look at how Cam Newton's body seems to have fallen apart and he is much bigger and stronger than Jackson Can also has a different style of running or reacting to pressure. A straight up TE type running style, looking to run right over smaller defenders instead of avoiding contact. A Josh Allen c. 2018 style? I’m not saying Lamar’s way of playing the position will allow him to avoid serious injury. We just don’t know. But Russell Wilson has done it, even when running for more than 800 yards in a season and pushing 4,000 yards rushing in his career. Meanwhile, built-to-last pocket passers like Andrew Luck (same draft as Wilson!) succumbed to injury. It’s just not that simple anymore.
RoboTronic Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said: John Harbaugh who is coaching him says "he's very intelligent". He scored a 13 on the Wonderlic and sounds very unintelligent when he talks. Maybe he has high football smarts, whatever those may be.
Don Otreply Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 Yup, I talked some Lamar crap, at first, but as is said, you are what your record says you are, and good on him. I like a nice IPA with my crow... 18 minutes ago, RoboTronic said: He scored a 13 on the Wonderlic and sounds very unintelligent when he talks. Maybe he has high football smarts, whatever those may be. Jim Kelly says hello... ?
eball Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: John Harbaugh who is coaching him says "he's very intelligent". Which is a pretty funny statement, because what else would he say? There's certainly a difference between "football intelligence" and simply possessing general knowledge or an analytical mind. Lamar seems to have football intelligence in great supply. I do also think there is something to be said for not being "too smart" to just play the game. Smart people tend to over-analyze things, whereas a guy who's not as smart might just move on to the next play.
May Day 10 Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, RoboTronic said: He scored a 13 on the Wonderlic and sounds very unintelligent when he talks. Maybe he has high football smarts, whatever those may be. That is true. Seems like he isn't a great communicator, analytical type, or leader of men. Making a large judgement based on small sample size, but I don't know. I remember during the draft, he was slipping and they showed him sitting with his mom. In an obvious attempt to not look "unhappy", Jackson engaged in some sort of strange peekaboo game with the camera as him and his mom were laughing and having a good time. He looked like a child.
ctk232 Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, H2o said: Another "system QB" to look at, who's quite a bit different on the athletic pendulum of it all, is Nick Foles. Great in the RPO with Philly early in his career, wildly inconsistent everywhere else, returns to Philly under the same system, and lights it up on the way to a SB victory over the Pats after a Carson Wentz injury. He then looks like he is heading in the same direction again before being derailed by an Alshon Jeffrey drop. [sorry in advance for the novel... ] Foles is an interesting comparison to make, if only because his trajectory of success in the league seems flipped from that of Jackson. I was still in Philly when they had him heading up that offense before the other moves leading up to Wentzylvania, but he was in the same room with Vick and eventually Barkley in 2014. His success wasn't until the switch to Kelly in 2013, and while it involved the RPO with Shady I think the NFL overall was still adjusting to Kelly's new hurry-up scheme in the context of the league. Foles had some collegiate familiarity with similar systems so he was able to succeed in 2013 as a new QB in a new offense, but the next year all but spelled disaster for him including having Mark Sanchez perform better by the end of 2014. That all to say, I don't think his 2013 year success was due to him being an "RPO" system QB as much as it was the hurry-up and new look offense in the league with a solid roster. Not sure others thought that of him as well, others being the supposed media experts and league analysts. His pre-draft evaluation as I recall also wasn't boiled down to an RPO wonder/convert. His stint with the Rams and Chiefs was interesting too, since he had issues with accuracy in LA, and barely played in KC since Smith was starting. But he also seemed a fish out of water with his passing game in LA. Didn't really follow him to either team, so can't speak to his development there, if any. I was thrilled he came back to Philly though, and took them to the dance (especially against the Pats). More importantly he showed he could step in and handle a different offense than that of Kelly's RPO, more reason being that he isn't really what I'd think of as a "system" QB. I can't believe I'm saying this since I don't mean to discredit that win in the least, whatsoever, but that was also one of the weaker Pats teams in recent history - we made it to the playoffs that year with quasi-disciplined play in an unprecedented year of parity in the AFC. It was exceptional. I want to see him see the same success in Jacksonville, if he'd only stay healthy enough to see if he's found his footing as a QB in the league. But I still don't know that I'd equate his career development to breaking out of a "system" QB mold. Edited November 18, 2019 by ctk232 1
zevo Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 Jackson has been incredible....he is different from anything we’ve seen...there are comps but nothing to this level...he should be walking proudly as he was ***** upon during the draft process....I’m still not sure how long this will last but my god is he fun to watch.
The Frankish Reich Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, May Day 10 said: That is true. Seems like he isn't a great communicator, analytical type, or leader of men. Making a large judgement based on small sample size, but I don't know. I remember during the draft, he was slipping and they showed him sitting with his mom. In an obvious attempt to not look "unhappy", Jackson engaged in some sort of strange peekaboo game with the camera as him and his mom were laughing and having a good time. He looked like a child. “Leader of men.” “Intelligent.” All of the following are HOF QBs: - Tom Brady, exuding “it’s all about me” at every turn - Terry Bradshaw, dumb as dirt. - Ben “bar the door so I can assault this chick” Roethlisberger - Brett Favre (no explanation needed) - Joe “I needed a special dispensation to get into Notre Dame” Montana For every Steve Young there’s a Joe Montana. For every Peyton Manning there’s a Terry Bradshaw. And I have to say it - some of the “leader of men” stuff has a tinge of racism to it .... 1
May Day 10 Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: “Leader of men.” “Intelligent.” All of the following are HOF QBs: - Tom Brady, exuding “it’s all about me” at every turn - Terry Bradshaw, dumb as dirt. - Ben “bar the door so I can assault this chick” Roethlisberger - Brett Favre (no explanation needed) - Joe “I needed a special dispensation to get into Notre Dame” Montana For every Steve Young there’s a Joe Montana. For every Peyton Manning there’s a Terry Bradshaw. And I have to say it - some of the “leader of men” stuff has a tinge of racism to it .... No. Lamar Jackson is a rock head. Watch him speak Bradshaw is too... but the 70s are different than 2019 when it is basically high tech intelligence warfare on a football field. Racial? One of the best leaders of men in the NFL is Russell Wilson
Tenhigh Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said: The Bills passed on Mahomes, Watson and Jackson, that should make any Bills fan blush more than a proctology exam Why is it that a proctology exam is making you blush? Edited November 18, 2019 by Tenhigh
RoboTronic Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: “Leader of men.” “Intelligent.” All of the following are HOF QBs: - Tom Brady, exuding “it’s all about me” at every turn - Terry Bradshaw, dumb as dirt. - Ben “bar the door so I can assault this chick” Roethlisberger - Brett Favre (no explanation needed) - Joe “I needed a special dispensation to get into Notre Dame” Montana For every Steve Young there’s a Joe Montana. For every Peyton Manning there’s a Terry Bradshaw. And I have to say it - some of the “leader of men” stuff has a tinge of racism to it .... I don't follow....
Dablitzkrieg Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 4 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said: The Bills passed on Mahomes, Watson and Jackson, that should make any Bills fan blush more than a proctology exam Between this reference, your profile name, and the pic, you really enjoy the butt. What are you trying to say exactly? 1
Mr. WEO Posted November 18, 2019 Posted November 18, 2019 52 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: What you say about injury risk is true, but it applies to all QBs. Bradford is certainly the Poster Child for a QB whose career never-was due to injury, and he's a classic pocket passer. Pocket QBs also take big hits - maybe bigger hits than a rushing guy. Mason Rudolph was knocked out cold in the pocket, was he not? Roman made the point, "when Jackson runs, he's in total control". Some of the worst contact Allen takes is hits in the pocket. I think injuries are a wild card for any QB. John Harbaugh who is coaching him says "he's very intelligent". Remember that time that NFL HC said (about a guy on his roster), "man, this guy is really dumb"?
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