Lamar Jackson: I'll Be Having That Crow Pot Pie Now (edited title)

[Gugny]

Just now, Stank_Nasty said:

right on. Jackson has absolutely  benefitted from a good d. as would any qb. I don't disagree with a lot here other than I can make an argument for the bills defense. turnovers it almost the only significant stat they have on buffalo and its only only by 4. meanwhile we are better in yardage, ppg, sacks, and 3rd down % by a wide margin. I will say their d has had a tougher schedule of offenses though.... and I also would totally disagree the bills d got embarrassed 2 weeks ago. they went on the road and allowed 19 pts while scoring 2 points for our offense and earning them a possession. IMO that's not even close to a bad day.

 

Perhaps I was being a tad harsh with regard to the Browns game.  Losing to those scumbags stung.

[Stank_Nasty]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Perhaps I was being a tad harsh with regard to the Browns game.  Losing to those scumbags stung.

it did. it was the first game all year where I was legitimately pissed all week long. the pats was more of a sad frustration and sort of optimism knowing we honestly should have won. the eagles I just sort of laughed off. stinker of game...….. that browns game seriously gave me an eye twitch though.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, RoboTronic said:

 

Nah, I mean like if they were picking in the top 10 where all the other QB's were taken. If Flacco was gone and they needed a franchise QB, would they have passed on Mayfield, Darnold, Allen & Rosen to select Jackson etc.  

 

Yes they have done a great job with Jackson, but I question whether or not he was their top rated QB.

 

I think drafting Jackson, like drafting Allen, was a strategy adopted by a 9-7 team that needed a new QB.

 

Of course, the teams involved are never going to say so, and in both cases it may have worked out better for them than the other alternatives that year.  Time will tell.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

The assertion (not by me) is that the Bills are 7-3 primarily because of the defense and the Ravens are 8-2 primarily because of Lamar Jackson.

 

That assertion would be wrong.  The Ravens D is legit

 

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

The Browns embarrassed the Bills' D (in addition to the Eagles doing it).

 

I don't think that's a fair take.  The Bills didn't get a needed stop.  But holding a team to 19 points is not usually described as "embarrassed".  And that goal line stand was Epic.

 

47 minutes ago, Gugny said:

My main point was that Josh Allen's performance has significantly contributed to the Bills' wins; it's not just the defense winning games for us.

 

Both teams are winning because of both sides of the ball.  The Ravens are winning by bigger point margins because their offense is more productive.

[whatdrought]

19 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Ravens?  They did draft higher.  Picked TE Hayden Hurst at #25 before trading back into the 1st at #32 for Jackson

 

This is an interesting aspect to this... Bills fans like to argue that we missed the easy decision to take Jackson, but if that was true and the Ravens knew he was what they’ve turned him into, would they have ever risked not taking him with that first pick? 

[DCOrange]

35 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

That assertion would be wrong.  The Ravens D is legit

 

Their defense has become good since acquiring Peters. Before that, they were around 20th in the league while the Ravens offense has been #1 or #2 from the beginning of the year to now, and that is undoubtedly primarily because of Lamar's skills. The Bills' offense on the other hand has held the team back.

[H2o]

22 minutes ago, SoTier said:

McDermott and Beane chose to dismantle the team they inherited despite making the playoffs in 2017.  The only player the Bills lost due to injury was Wood.  All the other teams that they sent packing was their choice.  As for "cap hell", almost all of it was the result of McDermott/Beane's blind commitment to shedding players without taking into consideration the cap implications.

 

The reality is that the 2019 Bills have less overall talent than the 2016 team that they inherited.  They have essentially replaced decent/good/great veterans with non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players. Their drafts have been uninspiring, primarily because they have continually traded up to gamble on projects in the first two or three rounds while passing on better prospects they could have taken if they stayed put.   They have failed to support Josh Allen with good coaching and top quality offensive talent, which compromises the ability to evaluate Allen's progress as a passer, especially the lack of a WR1.

 

Make all the excuses you want for McDermott and Beane, but three years into their tenure, the team is not significantly better than it was in 2017.   Their 7-3 record is largely a product of a schedule that has top loaded their schedule with bottom feeder teams which comes to an end on Thanksgiving Day.

 

 

They didn't inherit the 2016 team, they inherited the team after the 2016 season. Gilmore chose to leave the offseason they came in and I fully believe he was never going to re-sign here. Robert Woods bolted for LA, the place he wanted to be as well. Marquise Goodwin was the epitome of fragile while here, turning in one solid season, and SF gave him more money than we were willing to offer for sure. They let Zach Brown walk as well, who valued himself more than we did and was out for the biggest contract he could get. Watkins was a self-admitted malcontent nearing the end of his rookie deal. They trade him for Gaines and a 2nd. Dareus, while being a talented player, didn't put forth the effort he had prior to his big contract and had gotten himself in the doghouse with his behind the scenes antics. They cut bait and got what they could from Jax. Glenn, albeit talented as well, had an injury history that was piling up and a situation that unfolded over his foot/ankle injury here that seems eerily similar to the situation he took Cincy through this year if I am not mistaken. He was sent to Cincy in a trade to help position us for our QB. The cap situation was inherited from Whaley with the contracts he handed out. We can also throw the Charles Clay deal in there as another Whaley gem, even though he was here through last season. Fact of the matter is many of the better players we had on the 2016 roster chose to leave on their own in FA in 2017. But at the same time, let's not forget that in 2017 we added both Poyer and Hyde to the roster in FA. Great gets for the Bills. 

 

After that first season where they made the playoffs, Beane and McDermott determined somewhere along the line that Tyrod was not the long term answer at QB. That was their main focus heading into their first full offseason together. Tyrod is traded to the Browns, a deal where they were completely fleeced by Beane. They traded Glenn to Cincy to position themselves for said QB as well. Preston Brown? Adios. In this time we also find out Wood is going to be forced to retire because of a neck injury. They get Josh in the draft, as well as the QB of the defense in Edmunds. At this time Richie is starting to come off of the rails, drinking and drugging again. He says he is retiring. They trade Glenn because they are comfortable with Dawkins at LT, lose Incognito because of his life direction at the time, and Wood is forced to retire because of a neck injury. That is 3 new starters along the OL going into 2018, with two of those being really good players we had previously expected to be here. The cap situation and timing of things in some instances hindered them from being able to do but so much. We go 6-10 and Josh gets to make starts because Peterman was absolutely horrendous, still absolutely horrendous like we all knew, and the team starts growing together. In 2019 they hit FA to remake that OL, bring in a couple of solid WR's, and add a couple other pieces because they had the $$$ to maneuver. 

 

Draft wise:

 

2017: Tre White 1st,  Dion Dawkins 2nd, Matt Milano 5th (missed on Zay 2nd, Peterman 5th, and Vallejo 6th)

 

2018: Josh Allen 1st, Tremaine Edmunds 1st, Harrison Phillips 3rd, Taron Johnson 4th, Siran Neal 5th, Levi Wallace UFA (Wyatt Teller 5th got a us a pick from Cleveland, the rest were fodder imo, McCloud and Proehl)

 

2019: Ed Oliver 1st, Cody Ford 2nd, Devin Singletary 3rd, Dawson Knox 3rd, Jaquan Johnson 6th, Darryl Johnson 7th. 

 

Do I agree with every move they have made? Nope. I do think they have done well in the draft, despite how the hindsight crowd wants to portray things. They are drafting a young core, sprinkling in some solid vet additions through FA, and building the team towards sustainable success. Your assessment of the team being full of "non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players" is being a bit overly dramatic and seemingly from a stance that they haven't done what you claim you would have done. That's your take then so be it. Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

 

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good post.

 

As far as Beane and McDermott go, I waffle.

 

Part of me agrees with @simpleman and @SoTier that the best coaches work with the players they have and adjust their scheme to maximize their impact, and that so far, McDermott and co have not shown that trait.  They dumped talent and blew things up, and there's an argument to be made that maybe they didn't need to.

 

Part of me says, you can't change things by keeping them the same.  If McDermott came in here and felt that the Bills team had a culture where mediocrity was acceptable and the good players were just playing to hit FA and get their next contract, then he couldn't necessarily achieve long-term success by working around those guys.  He had to, as he said, get the wrong guys off the bus and the right guys on the bus.

 

Certainly the Bills had a very long track record of being too good to draft high, and too bad to win playoffs.  Out of 17 years, 10 years of records between 7-9 and 9-7; an additional 5 years of 6-10.  That's the epitome of football futility.

 

So I can't quarrel with the idea that it was necessary to try something different and that includes the player acquisition strategy of taking chances on lower floor/higher ceiling guys and second-tier FA who have potential but haven't played up to it.  The jury is still out on whether the different stuff McDermott tried, is going to work.

And I can respect your take as well my friend. I also agree that the jury is out for everything as a whole. But this regime, team they are building, and everything that has taken place since they have been here seems to have a completely different energy than that of those past. It kind of reminds me of the same feel the Bills had in the late 90's under Wade. We'll see how things go. 

[aristocrat]

The Ravens just run it down people's throats and win that time of possession.  Averaging over 34 mins total with 36 mins at home.  Ingram is gonna be close to or over 1000 yard rushing, jackson might too,  then their third guy will have close to 700 yards.  Their offense is on pace to break the all time team rushing record which is 3165.  You have to figure out how to take away or cut their run game in half and you can beat them or just beat them at what they do.  The browns ran it down their throat and smoked them. 

 

 Their defense is set up well cause other team start throwing the ball more cause they have to play catch up and they have a nice secondary.   

[The Frankish Reich]

H2o (good post but too long to quote here) - while I agree with you that Beane and McD have drafted well, unless Josh Allen takes a huge step forward they’ll always be remembered as the guys who traded away the pick that turned into Mahomes, not to mention being the guys who passed on Watson and traded up so they wouldn’t be stuck with Lamar. I imagine the Portland Trailblazers were drafting really well overall when they passed on Michael Jordan ....

Edited November 20, 2019 by The Frankish Reich

[Rc2catch]

I will eat some crow pie as well as Jackson has done better than I thought he was capable of, and he’s a legit MVP this season. But it’s a long season, the games count more towards the end. Roman is a great great run game coordinator and he’s built an offense that’s fairly unstoppable with all the formations. Still not sold Jackson can last or stay effective long term though 

[H2o]

19 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

H2o (good post but too long to quote here) - while I agree with you that Beane and McD have drafted well, unless Josh Allen takes a huge step forward they’ll always be remembered as the guys who traded away the pick that turned into Mahomes, not to mention being the guys who passed on Watson and traded up so they wouldn’t be stuck with Lamar. I imagine the Cleveland Cavaliers were drafting really well overall when they passed on Michael Jordan ....

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

10 minutes ago, H2o said:

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Chemical

[Gugny]

9 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

 

That seems like a very hasty/lofty label for just one solid season.  I'm going to wait a few years before giving anyone that kind of crown.  Just like I'll wait a few years before deeming someone "not good enough."

[H2o]

15 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

And if Allen is a solid QB who gets a ring/rings while not having Mahomes' stats, but Mahomes never gets one despite the coulda, shoulda, woulda's then what? He may just be Dan Marino in the end. Still a brilliant career, but sometimes stats aren't everything. 

[Dopey]

46 minutes ago, Chemical said:

 

Doesn’t matter. What he said is still true whether or not it’s fair. 

 

And Mahomes has 50TDs not just a good year, 50TDs. Brady and Manning are the only others to ever get that many. He also should have been in the super bowl and won mvp his first year starting. He’s Michael Jordan get used to it. 

Barkley be like "Mike, did you see what that guy wrote!? He ain't even me, and I ain't got no rings!!" 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

11 hours ago, H2o said:

How many other QB needy teams did not get Watson, Mahomes, or Jackson? And what if Josh is never viewed as elite, but still gets 2 rings ala Eli Manning? I'd take 2 Lombardi's over HOF stats or league MVP's as a fan any day. Who knows what the trajectories of Mahomes, Watson, and Jackson will be in the years to come? Sometimes players have decent starts to their careers and fizzle out. Not saying that is what will happen with any of the 3, but It happens. Or maybe they end up being middle of the road types as well? Maybe Josh does turn into Brett Favre II? Time will tell. 

 

PS - Houston and Portland passed on MJ 

Yep, it was Portland with Sam Bowie (who was, by the way, kind of the obvious choice at the time)

Hey, this weekend we get to show up the Broncos for passing on the QB from the school just an hour or so up I-25 ...

[njbuff]

I’m not taking a damn thing away from Jackson, but there are still 6 games and the post season to go before taking a piece of that crow.

 

All it takes is one shot to end it all or that DC to figure Jackson out to derail it all too.

 

But people love throwing accolades too fast to go along with calling players busts too fast.

[NickelCity]

13 hours ago, H2o said:

 

They didn't inherit the 2016 team, they inherited the team after the 2016 season. Gilmore chose to leave the offseason they came in and I fully believe he was never going to re-sign here. Robert Woods bolted for LA, the place he wanted to be as well. Marquise Goodwin was the epitome of fragile while here, turning in one solid season, and SF gave him more money than we were willing to offer for sure. They let Zach Brown walk as well, who valued himself more than we did and was out for the biggest contract he could get. Watkins was a self-admitted malcontent nearing the end of his rookie deal. They trade him for Gaines and a 2nd. Dareus, while being a talented player, didn't put forth the effort he had prior to his big contract and had gotten himself in the doghouse with his behind the scenes antics. They cut bait and got what they could from Jax. Glenn, albeit talented as well, had an injury history that was piling up and a situation that unfolded over his foot/ankle injury here that seems eerily similar to the situation he took Cincy through this year if I am not mistaken. He was sent to Cincy in a trade to help position us for our QB. The cap situation was inherited from Whaley with the contracts he handed out. We can also throw the Charles Clay deal in there as another Whaley gem, even though he was here through last season. Fact of the matter is many of the better players we had on the 2016 roster chose to leave on their own in FA in 2017. But at the same time, let's not forget that in 2017 we added both Poyer and Hyde to the roster in FA. Great gets for the Bills. 

 

After that first season where they made the playoffs, Beane and McDermott determined somewhere along the line that Tyrod was not the long term answer at QB. That was their main focus heading into their first full offseason together. Tyrod is traded to the Browns, a deal where they were completely fleeced by Beane. They traded Glenn to Cincy to position themselves for said QB as well. Preston Brown? Adios. In this time we also find out Wood is going to be forced to retire because of a neck injury. They get Josh in the draft, as well as the QB of the defense in Edmunds. At this time Richie is starting to come off of the rails, drinking and drugging again. He says he is retiring. They trade Glenn because they are comfortable with Dawkins at LT, lose Incognito because of his life direction at the time, and Wood is forced to retire because of a neck injury. That is 3 new starters along the OL going into 2018, with two of those being really good players we had previously expected to be here. The cap situation and timing of things in some instances hindered them from being able to do but so much. We go 6-10 and Josh gets to make starts because Peterman was absolutely horrendous, still absolutely horrendous like we all knew, and the team starts growing together. In 2019 they hit FA to remake that OL, bring in a couple of solid WR's, and add a couple other pieces because they had the $$$ to maneuver. 

 

Draft wise:

 

2017: Tre White 1st,  Dion Dawkins 2nd, Matt Milano 5th (missed on Zay 2nd, Peterman 5th, and Vallejo 6th)

 

2018: Josh Allen 1st, Tremaine Edmunds 1st, Harrison Phillips 3rd, Taron Johnson 4th, Siran Neal 5th, Levi Wallace UFA (Wyatt Teller 5th got a us a pick from Cleveland, the rest were fodder imo, McCloud and Proehl)

 

2019: Ed Oliver 1st, Cody Ford 2nd, Devin Singletary 3rd, Dawson Knox 3rd, Jaquan Johnson 6th, Darryl Johnson 7th. 

 

Do I agree with every move they have made? Nope. I do think they have done well in the draft, despite how the hindsight crowd wants to portray things. They are drafting a young core, sprinkling in some solid vet additions through FA, and building the team towards sustainable success. Your assessment of the team being full of "non-NFL caliber/JAG/decent players" is being a bit overly dramatic and seemingly from a stance that they haven't done what you claim you would have done. That's your take then so be it. Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

 

And I can respect your take as well my friend. I also agree that the jury is out for everything as a whole. But this regime, team they are building, and everything that has taken place since they have been here seems to have a completely different energy than that of those past. It kind of reminds me of the same feel the Bills had in the late 90's under Wade. We'll see how things go. 

 

*Slow clap*

 

Well done.

[Julio Hopkins]

13 hours ago, H2o said:

Just point out whom you believe to be what you claim. If the team were as bad off as you would like to make it seem then we wouldn't be 7-3 no matter who we played.  

 

Not sure you recognize how weak the Bills' schedule is.  A combined 15-55 against the teams they've beaten, a third of those wins are from the 5-5 Titans.  They have beaten the bottom of the barrel, maybe they prove more in future games though.  

 

 

[Putin]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:23 AM, Gordio said:

L Jackson is Greg Roman's dream QB.  He has everything in his arsenal that Roman wants in a QB.  It is a perfect match.  L Jackson is like Mike Vick on steroids.  yes he is that talented.  The people that compare him to T Taylor that is funny.  Taylor has never had the skill set like LJ.  Not even close.  

I would pump the brakes a little bit , yes he’s been playing great so far , even beyond my expectations actually , 

the only question I have can this be sustainable ? And IMO eventually teams will catch up and will be able to defend and keep him in the pocket , and IF that happens can he stay in the pocket and win the game ? 

I guess will see !!!

And BTW I’m glad we got Allen , and even today I would take Allen over Lamar or the other 3 , I think Allen  will have BETTER/LONGER career!!!

 

GO BILLS !!!! 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Putin