Lamar Jackson: I'll Be Having That Crow Pot Pie Now (edited title)

[Buffalo Junction]

2 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

Because despite his arm talent he didnt make NFL throws in college.   Teams knew they would have to design the offense 100% around his shortcomings. He's an amazing talent, but he also doesnt throw to wideouts.   He is very good at throwing to the middle of the field to wide open tight ends.   He was good down the seam in college too.  But if you watched his games he had major problems when trying to make typical NFL throws.  He was also smallish which I am sure worried teams about injury. 

 

Three of the top five receiving leaders on that team are tight ends.  He has trouble getting the ball to wideouts, their top wideout is on pace of 42 catches and 760 yards.   I dont know if that matters now, but I still think teams will adjust to that and make him throw outside the hashes at some point.   Right now the Ravens are doing a hell of a job with him.    He reminded me a ton of Tyrod coming into the league.   He looks incredible right now, but its a marathon not a sprint.

Well, the Chargers played him with a safety spy, big nickel, and tried to force outside throws.... and it worked in the playoffs. Now they have Ingram to take some pressure off. Still, there is a “formula” of sorts. Most teams don’t have the particular talent to execute that formula. 
 

The kid is electric and fun to watch. I’m a little skeptical about where his passing ability is at right now, and I hope it improves before he takes a few too many hits. Until then I’m just going to enjoy watching the kid play. 

[ctk232]

3 hours ago, pop gun said:

The Bills staff would have never geared an offense around Lamars abilities and he would have been highly ineffective. Drafting Lamar would have been a bad decision on McBeans behalf. 

Seriously, thank you. I love that Lamar is seeing success in the league. I love that he beat the Patriots. And he ensures for an entertaining afternoon of football week in and week out.

 

You would not have seen this had Jackson gone to any other team, and especially not here in Buffalo. In reference to OP's point:

3 hours ago, H2o said:

He is surely not just another system product ala Kaepernick or Tyrod with Roman at the helm. He can do things on the field that we haven't seen in this league since Michael Vick in his early days with the Falcons and when he is on throwing the ball, he is on. Even on the days he may be off throwing the football he can still beat you with his legs like he did the Seahawks or the Patriots.

Until he proves he can win outside of Roman's RPO system, the same system with an NFL edge that his draft evaluation said was the only system he could possibly translate to the NFL, he IS a system quarterback. Also, as mentioned, we've seen this before with Vick - it only took a few years before teams began to neutralize him in defensive scheme planning, and is only a matter of time before Roman's system can no longer rely on roster depth and talent with Ingram and the OL.

 

This to say, there's nothing wrong with developing a system that perfectly matches to your QB's strengths and talents. But the success we're seeing now I'd attribute far more to the scheme than Jackson's inherent ability as a QB able to command in any offensive system. His entire passing game is predicated on the success of the RPO in Roman's system coupled with Ingram as a matched runner, and a stout OL. Today's defenses aren't exactly built with an RPO offense in mind either since the greater preference for pass heavy systems - but, few, including the Pats, haven't had to gameplan for such a scheme in such a way since Harbaugh/Roman/Kaep went to the SB under the same scheme and you see just how successful this is with Jackson's inherent skillset made for this system.

 

Like Allen's critics are for him, I'm still waiting for the game where Jackson doesn't have the RPO, and needs to prove his strength as a passer to win a game. The few times he was asked to do that this season resulted in their only losses.

 

We have a tendency, not just this board but as NFL fans including the media, to over-react/hype to a new QB seeing success in the league. None of this is to say that Jackson can't have 8 more seasons like this under Roman's guidance, but I don't know that the evidence is there yet to credit Jackson as that caliber of QB external of Roman's system. Until he can win without the RPO, he is, by definition, a system QB.

Edited November 18, 2019 by ctk232

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

2 hours ago, RoboTronic said:

All the draft experts were fooled by Jackson.

Finally!  My chance to work in the line “Shut up, b****, and go fix me a crow pot pie!”

*
?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Ridgewaycynic2013
?

[ticketssince61]

I did not think that his style of play and coming from  Louisville  would translate well to NFL, but (Probably been mentioned in some of the other replies)

a) he has very good talent (and coaching) around him

b) my big concern is if he can continue to take the pounding (although he does seem to be able to avoid taking the big hits) . Look at how Cam Newton's body seems to have fallen apart and he is much bigger and stronger than Jackson

 

 

[Reed83HOF]

Growth in the NFL is overcoming obstacles once the opposing team takes away what you do best and forces you into playing against your weakness; thus far Lamar has not been slowed down and the blueprint isn't there yet. You cannot take a way what he is doing right now at all and I think a lot of people who said he translates well into a WR at least saw the electricity he has when he is running with the ball and saw that as more sustainable. For me personally, I tip my hat to him and he is passing at a level above my expectations of him coming out of college. Much like Josh, Sam, and Baker the real story as to eating crow or what not is still a year and a half or so away - can these guys overcome the blueprint and grow? It will be a fun and frustrating journey (hopefully Allen pans out) to see their growth. 

 

I was hoping Harbaugh got canned once we dumped Rex - Love him as a HC.

 

1.) Bellicheat*

2.) Payton

3.) Harbaugh

4.) Carroll 

 

You can argue anywhere between 2-4 as far as those rankings go IMO. 

[Bing Bong]

His TD passes were brilliant. Has an arm too! Dude made me look like an *** in the playoffs last year for as much as I hyped him up but.. he's 14-3 as a starter golly

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

And oh yeah his Mom?  Supposedly she still gives him an earful, right after every game.  If his head starts to swell, no worries: Mama Jackson right there with a pin.

Mama Jackson is da real MVP

[BillsFan692]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

One of the worst takes in the history of this board. In 10 games in his second year, he has more tds than Taylor had on an entire season. He also has a higher completion % than any season Taylor ever had.

 

if Allen was doing this, you’d be falling over and praising him. Your bias is showing.

Allen is doing it?

[H2o]

14 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

You would not have seen this had Jackson gone to any other team, and especially not here in Buffalo. In reference to OP's point:

Until he proves he can win outside of Roman's RPO system, the same system with an NFL edge that his draft evaluation said was the only system he could possibly translate to the NFL, he IS a system quarterback. Also, as mentioned, we've seen this before with Vick - it only took a few years before teams began to neutralize him in defensive scheme planning, and is only a matter of time before Roman's system can no longer rely on roster depth and talent with Ingram and the OL.

 

This to say, there's nothing wrong with developing a system that perfectly matches to your QB's strengths and talents. But the success we're seeing now I'd attribute far more to the scheme than Jackson's inherent ability as a QB able to command in any offensive system. His entire passing game is predicated on the success of the RPO in Roman's system coupled with Ingram as a matched runner, and a stout OL. Today's defenses aren't exactly built with an RPO offense in mind either since the greater preference for pass heavy systems - but, few, including the Pats, haven't had to gameplan for such a scheme in such a way since Harbaugh/Roman/Kaep went to the SB under the same scheme and you see just how successful this is with Jackson's inherent skillset made for this system.

 

Like Allen's critics are for him, I'm still waiting for the game where Jackson doesn't have the RPO, and needs to prove his strength as a passer to win a game. The few times he was asked to do that this season resulted in their only losses.

 

We have a tendency, not just this board but as NFL fans including the media, to over-react/hype to a new QB seeing success in the league. None of this is to say that Jackson can't have 8 more seasons like this under Roman's guidance, but I don't know that the evidence is there yet to credit Jackson as that caliber of QB external of Roman's system. Until he can win without the RPO, he is, by definition, a system QB.

Yes, but Vick also evolved later in his career with Philly and became more than just a running QB.  Right now I am beginning to believe Jackson can do the same. Not every QB is going to be Brady, Brees, or Rodgers, but they find their niche and turn out to be good starters in this league. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Padded stats are padded stats.   When the Bills had the lead TT's 4th QTR stats were "great" (cough)   

 

When the Bills didn't have the lead TT's 4th QTR stats were bad, very bad. 

 

Tyrod's best year was with Roman.  After that his # declined game after game after game.  

 

Is there any chance that if you guys want to keep debating Tyrod Taylor back-n-forth, you could go get a room or maybe start a Taylor Reprise thread?

Just askin'

10 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

His TD passes were brilliant. Has an arm too! Dude made me look like an *** in the playoffs last year for as much as I hyped him up but.. he's 14-3 as a starter golly

Mama Jackson is da real MVP

 

Mama Jackson is a Force, for reals.

[Wayne Arnold]

Jackson was a generational player in college.

 

John Harbaugh is the second-best football coach on the planet.

 

Not at all surprised what Jackson and the Ravens are doing this season. But I don’t think Jackson would be performing this well for any team.

[ctk232]

Just now, H2o said:

Yes, but Vick also evolved later in his career with Philly and became more than just a running QB.  Right now I am beginning to believe Jackson can do the same. Not every QB is going to be Brady, Brees, or Rodgers, but they find their niche and turn out to be good starters in this league. 

I mean, Vick saw three wildcards in Philly and lost them all - not saying he failed by any extent, his development certainly made the team competitive. But within this context you're right, there's no reason to say Jackson can't develop into a dominant QB. However, until he does so outside of the RPO system, he will always be a system QB. There's also nothing wrong with that either, W's talk at the end of the day - but let's not ahead of ourselves here by calling a system QB anything yet, much less a Brady/Brees/Rodgers. While I personally think he is better than this, there is a solid argument that can be made that he is the RPO equivalent of a "game manager" QB. It's just that the RPO "game manager" asks for an exceptional amount of athleticism, acceleration, and decision-making. 

 

If he can play out his career under this one system, then absolutely he'll have found his niche and will be successful pending sustained roster talent and depth. But let's not crown Jackson independent of his roster, offensive scheme, OC, coaching staff, and defense just yet...let's give it more than a couple years, shall we? 

[Elite Poster]

3 hours ago, pop gun said:

The Bills staff would have never geared an offense around Lamars abilities and he would have been highly ineffective. Drafting Lamar would have been a bad decision on McBeans behalf. 

 

That says more about our staff than Lamar. 

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

I mean, Vick saw three wildcards in Philly and lost them all - not saying he failed by any extent, his development certainly made the team competitive. But within this context you're right, there's no reason to say Jackson can't develop into a dominant QB. However, until he does so outside of the RPO system, he will always be a system QB. There's also nothing wrong with that either, W's talk at the end of the day - but let's not ahead of ourselves here by calling a system QB anything yet, much less a Brady/Brees/Rodgers. While I personally think he is better than this, there is a solid argument that can be made that he is the RPO equivalent of a "game manager" QB. It's just that the RPO "game manager" asks for an exceptional amount of athleticism, acceleration, and decision-making. 

 

If he can play out his career under this one system, then absolutely he'll have found his niche and will be successful pending sustained roster talent and depth. But let's not crown Jackson independent of his roster, offensive scheme, OC, coaching staff, and defense just yet...let's give it more than a couple years, shall we? 

Another "system QB" to look at, who's quite a bit different on the athletic pendulum of it all, is Nick Foles. Great in the RPO with Philly early in his career, wildly inconsistent everywhere else, returns to Philly under the same system, and lights it up on the way to a SB victory over the Pats after a Carson Wentz injury. He then looks like he is heading in the same direction again before being derailed by an Alshon Jeffrey drop.  

[Elite Poster]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

I agree

 

 

You are hitching your wagon to one playoff game in a rookie year. Have we EVER had a rookie at QB in the playoffs?

 

What's your schtick? Why don't you like Lamar?

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Is there any chance that if you guys want to keep debating Tyrod Taylor back-n-forth, you could go get a room or maybe start a Taylor Reprise thread?

Just askin'

 

 

Nope  I'm done.  

 

1 minute ago, Elite Poster said:

 

You are hitching your wagon to one playoff game in a rookie year. Have we EVER had a rookie at QB in the playoffs?

 

What's your schtick? Why don't you like Lamar?

 

Nate Peterman. 

 

[Mr. WEO]

I was wrong about Jackson.  He needs to win a playoff game though--his last was cringe-worthy.

 

I'm behind Allen, but he's an order of magnitude below the way Jackson is playing right now.

[Bookie Man]

He and Roman are the perfect match. He is in a great situation. Baltimore is looking tougher every week. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, H2o said:

Another "system QB" to look at, who's quite a bit different on the athletic pendulum of it all, is Nick Foles. Great in the RPO with Philly early in his career, wildly inconsistent everywhere else, returns to Philly under the same system, and lights it up on the way to a SB victory over the Pats after a Carson Wentz injury. He then looks like he is heading in the same direction again before being derailed by an Alshon Jeffrey drop.  

 

To be fair to Foles:

-I don't think what Philly ran on Foles 1st or 2nd appearances with them, was exactly an RPO offense, nor was it "the same system" 2013 with Shurmur/Kelly vs 2017 with Reich/Pederson.   What's consistent to both is that both coaches/OCs tried to figure out what Foles did well and focus on that, while working specific focused drills with him to help overcome deficiencies.

-"Wildly inconsistant everywhere else" comes down to "sucked with the St Louis Rams in 2015.  What has to be understood about the 2015 Rams is that coaching-wise and especially on offense, they were a Giant Sound of Suckage emerging from a Sucking Suckhole of Epic Suckitude.

-Foles started 1 game for Reid in KC in 2015, and played well.  410 yds, 3 TDs, 0 INTs.

 

Did I happen mention the Rams coaching sucked in 2015? 

 

I mean, think about it...in 2017, the two winning QB contending for the NFC Conference Championship Game (Case Keenum and Nick Foles) had both played for the Rams and legit totally sucked in 2015.  Wrap your mind around that for a moment and let it sink in.  Here you have a QB who is capable of winning a SB against Bill Belicheck**** and Tom Brady***, and another QB who is capable of QB'ing a team to an 11-5 season in which he throws 22 TDs and 7 INTs with 67.6% completions --- and on the 2015 Rams their performances both sucked.

 

Coaching matters.

[RoboTronic]

30 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Jackson was a generational player in college.

 

John Harbaugh is the second-best football coach on the planet.

 

Not at all surprised what Jackson and the Ravens are doing this season. But I don’t think Jackson would be performing this well for any team.

 

I don't even think Belichick would have been able to do what Harbaugh has done with this player. Jackson won the lottery when he was picked by the Ravens.

[Ralonzo]

3 hours ago, Your Brown Eye said:

The Bills passed on Mahomes, Watson and Jackson, that should make any Bills fan blush more than a proctology exam

Really? What a unique take. I wish someone had realized this before. My God, we've all been sold a bill of goods.

 

Fire McDermott, fire Beane, fire everyone.