Can the Detractors Now Admit Allen's Growth?

[VW82]

36 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

We have a dynamic here where it's OK to target and personally attack.......even troll/stalk those with negative takes on the team.

 

You'll even often see a mod "liking" posts like that which clearly violate TOS.

 

On the other hand.........if you are pessimistic..........you better stay in your lane and have a thick skin.

 

I know you are working to improve that but that's the way it is.........we can improve a lot there which will improve the quality of discussion.

 

There's a lot of truth here...maybe too much for this place. I think it comes down to this: you can't be overly pessimistic about Allen. You can have negative takes wrt anyone else on the team or in the front office but if you're consistently posting about Josh in a non-positive light you will be accused of campaigning against him or outright attacked personally. I had to take multiple weeks off here just to get away from all the personal attacks which just aren't healthy.

 

It doesn't matter what else you're posting either. I'm super pumped about McD, our front office, our defense, how well our FA signings have worked out, etc. Post negatively about Allen and be prepared for responses that are more about destroying your credibility than entertaining discussion. Not everyone is like that, mind you. Many of the posters here are reasonable and you learn things from each other in disagreement. Just have to be careful as Josh seems to be a third rail Bills issue in a lot of ways.    

Edited November 20, 2019 by VW82

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Well, I do think as I stated, that the total body of work matters. I do think playing better defenses are a good test. But, just throwing out random games because the opponent is deemed unworthy is assinine. These are NFL teams. And, the poster you think is being fair, complains incessantly every time I make a positive Allen comment Win, Lose or Draw. But, if your good with it so be it. Personally, I'm sick of the negative trolling on here. 

 

I agree with you that the total body of work matters and that throwing out "unworthy" games is a game you'd have to play fairly for all teams if you're gonna go there.

 

My "fair" comment was intended to indicate that I recognize eanyills viewpoint as valid: "How I’m feeling about Allen’s growth going into next year will be played out in the next few weeks against a combination of about-average to good teams, not one historically bad one. If I wasn’t happy for several weeks before the game, one game against Miami isn’t changing that."

 

I actually don't think Miami is anywhere close to a "historically bad team", but the "wait and see" viewpoint has merit based on historical QB development.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

We have a dynamic here where it's OK to target and personally attack.......even troll/stalk those with negative takes on the team.

 

As opposed to my personal favorite comment where I was once told I was on my knees in front of Ryan Fitzpatrick (performing a sexual act) because I wouldn't agree with the OP of that thread that he was the worst QB ever in the history of the NFL?    It's not OK to "troll/stalk those with negative takes on the team", and both positive and negative takes have their bashers.  Which form of bashing predominates depends upon a bunch of factors, including how the team is currently doing and whether it is perceived as trending up or down.  Wait for 3 consecutive losses and see what floats.

 

And that's about as far as this is going to go for meta-discussion.  Any further comments about the mods - take 'em up with Scott. 
 

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

There have been a number of throws the last few weeks that bring frustration because they are so off the mark including during the three and out possessions last weekend. At the same time he’s quietly built up a streak of 5 games without a pick and a 10/1 TD pass to interception ratio over 6 games.  It’s hard to recall any near picks in this stretch. Thinking about the “missed throws” and the no pick streak these two go together: the misses now are in the area toward the safe side.  Too high when the throw has to be high.  Too low and outside when the throw has to be low and outside.  At the same time we are talking about a career #2 receiver who suddenly for the first time this season is playing like a #1.  The evidence is steadily building in favor of the answer we have all been praying for. 

 

 

I strongly agree with most of this post but the last part...........I don't know if steady is the right word.    Nor do I expect improvement to be linear.   And I think people should probably stop worrying about getting the answer(that he's an elite QB).   We won't really know that he's an elite QB until he strings together some great seasons.    Right now he just needs to be good enough to get to and win a SB and while being elite would help he doesn't have to be elite to do that.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 minutes ago, VW82 said:

There's a lot of truth here...maybe too much for this place. I think it comes down to this: you can't be overly pessimistic about Allen. You can have negative takes wrt anyone else on the team or in the front office but if you're consistently posting about Josh in a non-positive light you will be accused of campaigning against him or outright attacked personally. I had to take multiple weeks off here just to get away from all the personal attacks which just aren't healthy.

 

And yet, I see criticism of Allen on here every day.  Quite a lot.

 

When there are some people who have the experience of being able to be critical or reserve judgement or even be pessimistic, while others say "you will be accused of campaigning or outright attacked"....maybe it's not the criticism or pessimism that's the issue, but how it's expressed, and how stridently and frequently?

 

If you feel you are being personally attacked, you have the option to report it.  Contrary to some perceptions, the mods do make an effort to be fair, whatever their personal views.

[LSHMEAB]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with you that the total body of work matters and that throwing out "unworthy" games is a game you'd have to play fairly for all teams if you're gonna go there.

 

My "fair" comment was intended to indicate that I recognize eanyills viewpoint as valid: "How I’m feeling about Allen’s growth going into next year will be played out in the next few weeks against a combination of about-average to good teams, not one historically bad one. If I wasn’t happy for several weeks before the game, one game against Miami isn’t changing that."

 

I actually don't think Miami is anywhere close to a "historically bad team", but the "wait and see" viewpoint has merit based on historical QB development.

Absolutely agree with the wait and see approach. The jury is entirely out on JA. There's just not enough evidence to reach a conclusive verdict.

 

I will say as a sidenote that I was encouraged by Sunday because I truly believe Allen is only going to REALLY pan out if he stops thinking and starts playing. I've harped on this because I feel pretty strongly about it. I think he's got a slight hitch in his giddyup when he's overthinking things and I believe this is where the inaccuracy comes into play. It doesn't SEEM like it's physical. It's a little bit mechanical, but I think the crux of the issue is psychological. 

 

You still saw a few errant passes on Sunday, but he shook em off. They didn't bother him. The thing that stands out the most when I look at a guy like Jim Kelly is resilience. He would throw a pick one drive and never let it affect the next drive. You have to have a short memory as an NFL QB. Cliche, but true.

 

He's not going to put up the numbers he did against Miami every week. That part isn't so important. What's important is that he PLAYS like he did against Miami. I don't mean performance; I mean style. 

 

I ALMOST would have liked to see him throw a pick so we could have seen how he'd respond. I don't care so much about the picks. If he's a gunslinger, sling. The coaching staff made a concerted effort to drill this into his head. A little late in my opinion, but better late than never.

 

The offense needs to go uptempo as often as possible, do whatever it takes to just let him do what he does best. For a great deal of the season, they've been trying to make him something he's not. 

 

You draft a QB number 7 knowing you're not getting Tyrod Taylor. Don't ask him to play like Tyrod Taylor. JMO

Edited November 20, 2019 by LSHMEAB

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

There have been a number of throws the last few weeks that bring frustration because they are so off the mark including during the three and out possessions last weekend. At the same time he’s quietly built up a streak of 5 games without a pick and a 10/1 TD pass to interception ratio over 6 games.  It’s hard to recall any near picks in this stretch. Thinking about the “missed throws” and the no pick streak these two go together: the misses now are in the area toward the safe side.  Too high when the throw has to be high.  Too low and outside when the throw has to be low and outside.  At the same time we are talking about a career #2 receiver who suddenly for the first time this season is playing like a #1.  The evidence is steadily building in favor of the answer we have all been praying for. 

 

Couple of things.  One is, Allen has always made "off the mark" throws.  Pre draft, I was skeptical of him because I couldn't see why.  QB whisperers said it was fixable, and he does seem much better.  But when he is rushed enough or "feels" rushed, he does revert some times. 

 

But another is that especially in the Browns game, when I went back and looked carefully at the all 22, there are a number of throws where someone got fingers on it and deflected it. ( I look at it like looking for a tip in volleyball, if I can see the ball change course after it goes by a defender.)  These are usually short/intermediate throws that Allen is trying to throw with more "touch" and I think that is part why they are more subject to deflection.  As he gets more comfortable with touch, hopefully he'll learn when he can put a bit more arc in to some of them to avoid the deflection.

 

I agree with you that Allen's misses have been more on the side of being safe.  I noticed in the Dolphins game that there were a couple misses where he was not so safe, but trusted Brown to defend the pass if he couldn't catch it (Brown did).  I think that's part of the "fearless" advice he got - stop playing it ultra-safe, accept that some INTs will happen, just don't make them stupid throws.  (there was at least one, maybe 2, stupid throws in the Browns game that could have been picked).

[Augie]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And yet, I see criticism of Allen on here every day.  Quite a lot.

 

When there are some people who have the experience of being able to be critical or reserve judgement or even be pessimistic, while others say "you will be accused of campaigning or outright attacked"....maybe it's not the criticism or pessimism that's the issue, but how it's expressed, and how stridently and frequently?

 

If you feel you are being personally attacked, you have the option to report it.  Contrary to some perceptions, the mods do make an effort to be fair, whatever their personal views.

 

I learned long, long ago....it’s not always what you do, but often how you do it. 

 

 

. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Augie

[VW82]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

When there are some people who have the experience of being able to be critical or reserve judgement or even be pessimistic, while others say "you will be accused of campaigning or outright attacked"....maybe it's not the criticism or pessimism that's the issue, but how it's expressed, and how stridently and frequently?

 

 

I certainly don't post here every day but do I spend too much time when I'm on here discussing Allen? Probably. I'll admit to that. But I've seen multiple occasions where a mod issued an unofficial warning by post number five (of the entire account) because the first four were about Allen. Given everything else I've seen on here it would seem fairly obvious that it's not just about frequency of the subject, it's also about the subject. As for how it's expressed, I don't think we're going to find a bunch of my old posts using inflammatory language, etc. I try hard to at least explain where I'm coming from, and I'm open to the opinions of others.  

 

Quote

If you feel you are being personally attacked, you have the option to report it.  Contrary to some perceptions, the mods do make an effort to be fair, whatever their personal views.

 

Here's what I would say to this. It's a tough call to report posters, especially long standing ones with otherwise good reps, when a mod is posting in the same thread and at the same time as the personal attack, but doesn't address it publicly. The assumption is they probably saw it and did nothing (perhaps because it came from regular). I don't think you guys should be held to some impossible standard of catching everything, but there are numerous instances of attacks on here that...let's just say it would be surprising that a mod didn't see it. Out of all the personal attacks I've endured on here, I can't think of one time where I saw the poster get reprimanded without me reporting it. That seems odd. I will report attacks in the future.   

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I certainly don't post here every day but do I spend too much time when I'm on here discussing Allen? Probably. I'll admit to that. But I've seen multiple occasions where a mod issued an unofficial warning by post number five (of the entire account) because the first four were about Allen.

 

That's very unlikely or should I say, in the case where that occurs there's usually way more to the story - like the account is new, but the poster is not and has probably been banned before and come right back to start up the same behavior.

 

Quote

Here's what I would say to this. It's a tough call to report posters, especially long standing ones with otherwise good reps, when a mod is posting in the same thread and at the same time as the personal attack, but doesn't address it publicly. The assumption is they probably saw it and did nothing

 

I'll address this because I get it all the time as a "rebuttal" in PM and it frustrates me.  Even when a mod is posting in a thread, we're not necessarily reading every post.  If I start a convo with someone, I may come back to the thread (as I assume others do) only when I get a notice that someone has responded to me.  There might be 30 posts in between and I might read them, skim them, or skip them depending upon my mood and what else I've got going on.

 

So no, incorrect assumption.

[Lfod]

10 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Is this forum a place to objectively exchange ideas about the Buffalo Bills?

 

Or is it a booster club designed to offer a "Feel good" experience to the most jaded Bills fan?

 

Those are 2 different things.  I think the problem is that a lot of posters think this place is supposed to be the former, but most think it is supposed to be the latter.

 

Perhaps the moderators can carve out a "Kool Aid" sub forum for those who enjoy living inside an echo chamber and come here looking solely for a "feel good" experience.

 

I would be happy to never go in that sub forum myself.  By the same token, I don't come here to spar with that sort of fan.  I come here to objectively discuss the team with like minded fans.

 

If we had an entire sub forum filled with the sort of poster I prefer, my time here would be much better spent.

 

 

All I was intending to do was offer advice. I wouldn't consider every person who is hopeful or concerned a kool aid drinker or a negative whiner. 

 

I think the team has some positive and negative aspects that both should be open to discussion. I was just suggesting it should be reasonable. 

 

I don't think it's time to raise the victory flag. I don't think it's time to throw in the white towel. I think anybody leaning to hard in either direction will probably fall over. 

[Augie]

49 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I certainly don't post here every day but do I spend too much time when I'm on here discussing Allen? Probably. I'll admit to that. But I've seen multiple occasions where a mod issued an unofficial warning by post number five (of the entire account) because the first four were about Allen. Given everything else I've seen on here it would seem fairly obvious that it's not just about frequency of the subject, it's also about the subject. As for how it's expressed, I don't think we're going to find a bunch of my old posts using inflammatory language, etc. I try hard to at least explain where I'm coming from, and I'm open to the opinions of others.  

 

 

Here's what I would say to this. It's a tough call to report posters, especially long standing ones with otherwise good reps, when a mod is posting in the same thread and at the same time as the personal attack, but doesn't address it publicly. The assumption is they probably saw it and did nothing (perhaps because it came from regular). I don't think you guys should be held to some impossible standard of catching everything, but there are numerous instances of attacks on here that...let's just say it would be surprising that a mod didn't see it. Out of all the personal attacks I've endured on here, I can't think of one time where I saw the poster get reprimanded without me reporting it. That seems odd. I will report attacks in the future.   

 

 

The mods are volunteers and also fans. They should be allowed to participate and not be a dorm mom for every post that pops up. 

 

If you have legit posts that offended you I’d be interested in seeing them. Honestly. I try not to be extreme to one side or the other, but some posters and/or topics are very polarizing. If you go hard to either end of the spectrum, you risk the wrath of  the other extreme. Almost always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Allen included. 

 

. 

 

 

.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Augie

[Lfod]

3 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

This line drives me nuts. I've been very critical of Allen and the direction of the team many times on this board. I've also watched every single play since 1997. I was just a kid so I made friends with the guy at Best Buy working the DirecTV setup just so he'd let me keep the display on the Bills games. 

 

Ok, so I have missed a few plays. I vividly remember CBS? breaking into a Bills Jets game for the Clinton Impeachment nonsense. There was also the blackout during the Edwards era; can't remember the year.

 

Never ONCE have I not been nervously rooting the Bills. Quite the contrary.

 

The insinuation that critique and skepticism= hoping the Bills fail is RIDICULOUS.

 

You could actually make the argument that the fans who accept everything the team is selling are not real fans. If you're perfectly fine with everything the Bills do, you don't actually want to see them improve. You just want to watch the games and HOPE. 

 

I would personally never make this case because it's silly. Who spends time on a Bills message board if they're not rooting for the team? I suppose there are always weirdo's out there, but that number is most likely TINY.

 

I don't get the need for the eating crow stuff each and every week. This should not be a fight between skeptical Bills fans and those supremely confident in the direction. I think we can all agree the team appears to be headed in the right direction. That's a GOOD thing.

Hapless Bills Fan response to this ^^^^ was sufficient to the point that I will only confirm that I definitely didn't call out any posters specifically and it wasn't directed at everybody who ever had a criticism. I actually have some criticisms of my own. 

 

I have to agree to disagree about people that exist who think the team will lose and will be front and center when it happens to say I told you so. They will hang around game day threads predicting a loss up until the point the team wins then they vanish. 

 

 

[VW82]

43 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I apologize if I am speaking up where it’s not invited or expected, but.......I happen to have been an Allen skeptic initially. I wanted Darnold. Time will tell if I was right or wrong. Allen is our guy, and I’ll be 100% behind him until it’s clear he’s not. I’m pleasantly surprised with his progress at this point.  I have seen different points of view, but generally healthy discussions. That’s fine. 

 

 

Happy to entertain anyone on here who wants to chat. No apology necessary.
 

Quote

 

The mods are volunteers and also fans. They should be allowed to participate and not be a dorm mom for every post that pops up. 

 

 

 

 

To be clear, I wasn't advocating for that at all; rather, merely providing explanation why I think many on here, including myself, have avoided using the report function. I'd also add that for us newer members we'd much rather find a way to get along with the regulars than report them. I'm down for talking Bills not causing waves.

 

Quote

If you have legit posts that offended you I’d be interested in seeing them. Honestly. I try not to be extreme to one side or the other, but some posters and/or topics are very polarizing. If you go hard to either end of the spectrum, you risk the wrath of  the other extreme. Almost always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Allen included. 

 

Like truly offended? No. It's more about putting effort into adding something to the discussion and being met with lots of "you're an idiot" or "delete your account #######" or whatever. I post on other sports sites and this one definitely has the most pronounced hive mentality though I suppose that comes with the territory and should be expected to some degree. The funny thing is, among my friends IRL, I'm considered an Allen homer. They all think he sucks and so I'm constantly defending him! Hah.

Edited November 20, 2019 by VW82

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Happy to entertain anyone on here who wants to chat. No apology necessary.
 

 

To be clear, I wasn't advocating for that at all; rather, merely providing explanation why I think many on here, including myself, have avoided using the report function. I'd also add that for us newer members we'd much rather find a way to get along with the regulars than report them.   

 

 

Like truly offended? No. It's more about putting effort into adding something to the discussion and being met with lots of "you're an idiot" or "delete your account #######" or whatever. I post on other sports sites and this one definitely has the most pronounced hive mentality. The funny thing is, among my friends IRL, I'm considered an Allen homer. They all think he sucks and so I'm stuck defending him! Hah.

 

I post here...a LOT, obviously. Far too much I’m afraid, and I’m sure some would agree!  I know for a fact I have never reported anyone for any reason. I never saw the need. To my knowledge, I have never been reported. 

 

It’s never even occurred to me to report anyone. I never expected us to all agree on everything. To what degree you disagree can be an issue, but that’s all about HOW you disagree.  

 

I think the mods do a great job. I don’t have thin skin, and I try to ignore the knuckleheads. Don’t let internet clowns get your goat. Just my two cents. 

 

Relax........

[LSHMEAB]

32 minutes ago, Lfod said:

Hapless Bills Fan response to this ^^^^ was sufficient to the point that I will only confirm that I definitely didn't call out any posters specifically and it wasn't directed at everybody who ever had a criticism. I actually have some criticisms of my own. 

 

I have to agree to disagree about people that exist who think the team will lose and will be front and center when it happens to say I told you so. They will hang around game day threads predicting a loss up until the point the team wins then they vanish. 

 

 

Since we're getting all psychological here, I think MOST of the poster's you're referencing are just protective. They've seen this franchise let them down time and time again and refuse to allow themselves to HOPE. Maybe they did that in the past and got burned. Maybe they're the ones taking it TOO seriously.

 

As for not posting when the Bills win, you could theorize that they're continuing to guard their emotions and don't want to see all the rainbows and butterflies threads.

 

I fully understand their skepticism. Until this franchise starts winning consistently, they have a "point." I'm actually thinking of several individuals I know personally. Totally anecdotal, but they tend to speak very similarly to the the type of poster's considered anti-fans. Do nothing but B&M, but obviously care deeply about the results.

 

Maybe there's someone out there so pathetic that they invest a ton of time in the Bills just to come to a message board to say "I told you so." It's really difficult for me to believe the number of people who would partake in such a sad hobby is more than 2 or 3. Who knows? Maybe there are far more lunatics out there than I'm comfortable accepting.

 

Either way, the Bills made the playoffs two years ago after a 17 year "hiatus" and appear FAIRLY well positioned to do it again. Sean McDermott is the best HC we've had in a LONG time. There's legitimate reason to believe "this time" is different and I think you'd be surprised at how these people will come around when they see results.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Since we're getting all psychological here, I think MOST of the poster's you're referencing are just protective. They've seen this franchise let them down time and time again and refuse to allow themselves to HOPE. Maybe they did that in the past and got burned. Maybe they're the ones taking it TOO seriously.

 

As for not posting when the Bills win, you could theorize that they're continuing to guard their emotions and don't want to see all the rainbows and butterflies threads.

 

I fully understand their skepticism. Until this franchise starts winning consistently, they have a "point." I'm actually thinking of several individuals I know personally. Totally anecdotal, but they tend to speak very similarly to the the type of poster's considered anti-fans. Do nothing but B&M, but obviously care deeply about the results.

 

Maybe there's someone out there so pathetic that they invest a ton of time in the Bills just to come to a message board to say "I told you so." It's really difficult for me to believe the number of people who would partake in such a sad hobby is more than 2 or 3. Who knows? Maybe there are far more lunatics out there than I'm comfortable accepting.

 

Either way, the Bills made the playoffs two years ago after a 17 year "hiatus" and appear FAIRLY well positioned to do it again. Sean McDermott is the best HC we've had in a LONG time. There's legitimate reason to believe "this time" is different and I think you'd be surprised at how these people will come around when they see results.

 

Good post.  Yeah, there's a reason I'm "Hapless Bills Fan".  That sinking "Oh, crap, Bills being Billsy, Here we Go Again" feeling is hard to shake.

 

So yes, I'm sure you've got a good point that many people who seem overly negative are protecting themselves from heartbreak - a form of Battered bills fan syndrome

 

As for the number of people who come to a message board to be disruptive and troll.....let me say, being a mod is an education in human psychology, and leave it at that.

[rayray808]

when Josh Allen grows apart of me grows

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

Since we're getting all psychological here, I think MOST of the poster's you're referencing are just protective. They've seen this franchise let them down time and time again and refuse to allow themselves to HOPE. Maybe they did that in the past and got burned. Maybe they're the ones taking it TOO seriously.

 

As for not posting when the Bills win, you could theorize that they're continuing to guard their emotions and don't want to see all the rainbows and butterflies threads.

 

I fully understand their skepticism. Until this franchise starts winning consistently, they have a "point." I'm actually thinking of several individuals I know personally. Totally anecdotal, but they tend to speak very similarly to the the type of poster's considered anti-fans. Do nothing but B&M, but obviously care deeply about the results.

 

Maybe there's someone out there so pathetic that they invest a ton of time in the Bills just to come to a message board to say "I told you so." It's really difficult for me to believe the number of people who would partake in such a sad hobby is more than 2 or 3. Who knows? Maybe there are far more lunatics out there than I'm comfortable accepting.

 

Either way, the Bills made the playoffs two years ago after a 17 year "hiatus" and appear FAIRLY well positioned to do it again. Sean McDermott is the best HC we've had in a LONG time. There's legitimate reason to believe "this time" is different and I think you'd be surprised at how these people will come around when they see results.

 

Good post.  Battered Bills Fan Syndrome is a thing, and surely what you describe is a form of it.  There's a reason I changed my name from "Hopeful" to "Hapless Bills Fan"

 

As far as the weird things people seem to come to a message board for....let's just say being a mod is an education in psychology, and that's all I'll say there.

[without a drought]

Allen has gotten better,  along with the team in general, and they look positioned to make the playoffs. The only thing I'm not sure of is whether beating the  bottom dwellers of the NFL means that much. We should learn a lot about this team and Allen in the weeks that follow the Broncos game.