Can the Detractors Now Admit Allen's Growth?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Is this forum a place to objectively exchange ideas about the Buffalo Bills?

 

Or is it a booster club designed to offer a "Feel good" experience to the most jaded Bills fan?

 

Those are 2 different things.  I think the problem is that a lot of posters think this place is supposed to be the former, but most think it is supposed to be the latter.

 

Perhaps the moderators can carve out a "Kool Aid" sub forum for those who enjoy living inside an echo chamber and come here looking solely for a "feel good" experience.

 

I would be happy to never go in that sub forum myself.  By the same token, I don't come here to spar with that sort of fan.  I come here to objectively discuss the team with like minded fans.

 

If we had an entire sub forum filled with the sort of poster I prefer, my time here would be much better spent.

 

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

 

It was pretty conclusively established by a poll a couple weeks back that over 97% of the respondents (and there were a lot of respondents) think it's appropriate to criticize and be negative here.  

I've seen a lot of criticism here pass without a ripple.   If it's accurate and backed up with facts, it doesn't seem to be a problem.  In fact I view it as a benefit.  It provokes good discussion. 

OTOH, someone who posts the same "Allen sucks" message without data to back it up  (or a video of bad throws misrepresented as "highlights") over and over in multiple threads, is likely to go "out the airlock" sooner or later.  The scope, frequency, and the form of the criticism offered can at times be seen as problems.  Unremitting positivity posted over and over and over again seems less common for some reason, but would also eventually be seen as a problem.

 

I don't want to sound mean, but someone who goes over-the-top with criticism but wants it to be treated as "objectivity" and demands a special forum for people who don't define it as he does, sounds  like the one in the "echo chamber" to me.

 

One issue is that some people view metrics like DVOA or total QBR or whatever as definitive and objective, while to others they're only one data point and seen as flawed.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, teef said:

nonsense.  i know you won't respond, but this is nonsense.  if someone is going to be critical, just back it up.  seems easy...right?  well, heading into the game against miami, you insisted that josh allen sucks, and everyone who doesn't think so just isn't being rational.  you stated josh would be responsible for 3 turnovers in the game, and that the bills would lose.  all wrong.  being wrong is not an issue, but how people approach other members can be.  back up your comments, don't put down other posters, and there won't have to be a "kool aid" subforum.  you want to act like jamoke but don't expect to receive any fall out from it.  try actually engaging people in a normal way. 

 

I'm just going to sit here for a moment and admire this quietly.

 

 

[LSHMEAB]

21 hours ago, Lfod said:

You don't have to be hoping that the team loses before every game so you have one more opportunity to throw negativity around. 

 

 

This line drives me nuts. I've been very critical of Allen and the direction of the team many times on this board. I've also watched every single play since 1997. I was just a kid so I made friends with the guy at Best Buy working the DirecTV setup just so he'd let me keep the display on the Bills games. 

 

Ok, so I have missed a few plays. I vividly remember CBS? breaking into a Bills Jets game for the Clinton Impeachment nonsense. There was also the blackout during the Edwards era; can't remember the year.

 

Never ONCE have I not been nervously rooting the Bills. Quite the contrary.

 

The insinuation that critique and skepticism= hoping the Bills fail is RIDICULOUS.

 

You could actually make the argument that the fans who accept everything the team is selling are not real fans. If you're perfectly fine with everything the Bills do, you don't actually want to see them improve. You just want to watch the games and HOPE. 

 

I would personally never make this case because it's silly. Who spends time on a Bills message board if they're not rooting for the team? I suppose there are always weirdo's out there, but that number is most likely TINY.

 

I don't get the need for the eating crow stuff each and every week. This should not be a fight between skeptical Bills fans and those supremely confident in the direction. I think we can all agree the team appears to be headed in the right direction. That's a GOOD thing.

[eanyills]

Admit growth based on what, playing Miami? That was about as meaningless a game as there is in relation to evaluating the team. The only thing I took away from that game was the targets John Brown received, actually being targeted like a goto #1.

 

How I’m feeling about Allen’s growth going into next year will be played out in the next few weeks against a combination of about-average to good teams, not one historically bad one. If I wasn’t happy for several weeks before the game, one game against Miami isn’t changing that.

[H2o]

7 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Is this forum a place to objectively exchange ideas about the Buffalo Bills?

 

Or is it a booster club designed to offer a "Feel good" experience to the most jaded Bills fan?

 

Those are 2 different things.  I think the problem is that a lot of posters think this place is supposed to be the former, but most think it is supposed to be the latter.

 

Perhaps the moderators can carve out a "Kool Aid" sub forum for those who enjoy living inside an echo chamber and come here looking solely for a "feel good" experience.

 

I would be happy to never go in that sub forum myself.  By the same token, I don't come here to spar with that sort of fan.  I come here to objectively discuss the team with like minded fans.

 

If we had an entire sub forum filled with the sort of poster I prefer, my time here would be much better spent.

 

 

We have been discussing Buffalo Bills football here looooooong before you ever came along my friend. There has always been quality discussions on TSW. There have always been people on both ends of the spectrum and then the ones who stayed somewhere in between. You, on the other hand, are contradicting yourself. You say there should be a Kool Aid forum that you would be glad to never visit, but then make your plea for a forum of "like minded" people where you would gladly spend your time. So are you're saying that the drinkers should have their own place and then you would gladly relegate yourself to "The Pit of Misery", since we're talking about people "like minded" as yourself and all. Only one thing to say to that.

 

[Dr. Who]

4 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This line drives me nuts. I've been very critical of Allen and the direction of the team many times on this board. I've also watched every single play since 1997. I was just a kid so I made friends with the guy at Best Buy working the DirecTV setup just so he'd let me keep the display on the Bills games. 

 

Ok, so I have missed a few plays. I vividly remember CBS? breaking into a Bills Jets game for the Clinton Impeachment nonsense. There was also the blackout during the Edwards era; can't remember the year.

 

Never ONCE have I not been nervously rooting the Bills. Quite the contrary.

 

The insinuation that critique and skepticism= hoping the Bills fail is RIDICULOUS.

 

You could actually make the argument that the fans who accept everything the team is selling are not real fans. If you're perfectly fine with everything the Bills do, you don't actually want to see them improve. You just want to watch the games and HOPE. 

 

I would personally never make this case because it's silly. Who spends time on a Bills message board if they're not rooting for the team? I suppose there are always weirdo's out there, but that number is most likely TINY.

 

I don't get the need for the eating crow stuff each and every week. This should not be a fight between skeptical Bills fans and those supremely confident in the direction. I think we can all agree the team appears to be headed in the right direction. That's a GOOD thing.

I am perfectly fine with your kind of critical spirit. You're one of the posters I always read because you have insight and interesting comments. This is quite different from the kind of crusading negativity that rubs people wrong and there is a lot of that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

This line drives me nuts. I've been very critical of Allen and the direction of the team many times on this board. I've also watched every single play since 1997. I was just a kid so I made friends with the guy at Best Buy working the DirecTV setup just so he'd let me keep the display on the Bills games. 

 

Ok, so I have missed a few plays. I vividly remember CBS? breaking into a Bills Jets game for the Clinton Impeachment nonsense. There was also the blackout during the Edwards era; can't remember the year.

 

Never ONCE have I not been nervously rooting the Bills. Quite the contrary.

 

The insinuation that critique and skepticism= hoping the Bills fail is RIDICULOUS.

 

No offense, LSHMEAB, but I think you might be taking personally a comment that might be meant for a different type of poster.

 

People like yourself whose criticism and skepticism is measured and on-point sometimes get heated debate, but are usually not tabbed as hoping the Bills fail. 

 

On the other hand, there are a number of posters here who actually are pretty unremitently negative and critical and do, in fact, seem to both predict failure and even to be taking a certain pleasure when the Bills fail.   They also tend to be the ones who complain a lot about how criticism isn't tolerated and most people on the board want to live in Delusional Polychrome land where Unicorns Fart Rainbows. 

 

Poppycock.

[Hebert19]

Here's a stat for ya.  With 20 total touchdowns allen currently ranks 7th in the league and leads the league in tds since week 7.  Who knew. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, eanyills said:

Admit growth based on what, playing Miami? That was about as meaningless a game as there is in relation to evaluating the team. The only thing I took away from that game was the targets John Brown received, actually being targeted like a goto #1.

 

How I’m feeling about Allen’s growth going into next year will be played out in the next few weeks against a combination of about-average to good teams, not one historically bad one. If I wasn’t happy for several weeks before the game, one game against Miami isn’t changing that.

 

Fair enough

[Gambit]

I saw that since week 7 Allen has the most TDs in the NFL. That's pretty damn impressive. 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, eanyills said:

Admit growth based on what, playing Miami? That was about as meaningless a game as there is in relation to evaluating the team. The only thing I took away from that game was the targets John Brown received, actually being targeted like a goto #1.

 

How I’m feeling about Allen’s growth going into next year will be played out in the next few weeks against a combination of about-average to good teams, not one historically bad one. If I wasn’t happy for several weeks before the game, one game against Miami isn’t changing that.

That's funny, so the other games this year compared to last year mean nothing. It's laughable that you can't seem to see that many unbiased , expert observers have taken notice. Try googling it. You're another Debbie Downer who's been pissing on Allen at every positive comment made about him. You're totally biased against Josh Allen. 

[downunderbill]

12 minutes ago, Gambit said:

I saw that since week 7 Allen has the most TDs in the NFL. That's pretty damn impressive. 

 

Sounds like he might just be improving. 

[Mat68]

31 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Here's a stat for ya.  With 20 total touchdowns allen currently ranks 7th in the league and leads the league in tds since week 7.  Who knew. 

Dont you remember anything with Taylor.  Rushing yards and TDs dont matter.  Unless, they play for different teams.  But, seriously his play has completely changed since NE.  It seems he has taken a step in doing what best for the team.  It's like Allen just looked across at Brady and realized even GOAT doesnt have carry the team 24/7.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Mat68

[BADOLBILZ]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No offense, LSHMEAB, but I think you might be taking personally a comment that might be meant for a different type of poster.

 

People like yourself whose criticism and skepticism is measured and on-point sometimes get heated debate, but are usually not tabbed as hoping the Bills fail. 

 

On the other hand, there are a number of posters here who actually are pretty unremitently negative and critical and do, in fact, seem to both predict failure and even to be taking a certain pleasure when the Bills fail.   They also tend to be the ones who complain a lot about how criticism isn't tolerated and most people on the board want to live in Delusional Polychrome land where Unicorns Fart Rainbows. 

 

Poppycock.

 

 

Nah.

 

It's anyone with a negative take even if it's limited.

 

I've been dealing with it for 20 years here..........and back then most of my takes were positive assessments because they were making more good decisions than most teams and subsequently winning.

 

But mention the impending salary cap issues back in 1998 and you were a ***** charlatan trying to undermine success. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

That's funny, so the other games this year compared to last year mean nothing. It's laughable that you can't seem to see that many unbiased , expert observers have taken notice. Try googling it. You're another Debbie Downer who's been pissing on Allen at every positive comment made about him. You're Totally biased against Josh Allen. 

 

Well, I see it differently. 

 

I think it's legit to say we should pay more attention to the good teams (not necessarily the teams with the most wins, but the teams with good defense) when we assess Allen's development.

 

Denver would be one of those teams.  They are #7 in the league right now.  The Browns and the Eagles were among those good D teams - top half of the league anyway.  NE and Ravens and Cowboys. Miami is a pretty soundly coached team, but they just don't have the hosses.

 

I want to enjoy the win as much as anyone, but I understand the viewpoint.

 

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Nah.

It's anyone with a negative take even if it's limited.

 

I disagree, and I think I read as much of the board as or more regularly than anyone.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I see it differently. 

 

I think it's legit to say we should pay more attention to the good teams (not necessarily the teams with the most wins, but the teams with good defense) when we assess Allen's development.

 

Denver would be one of those teams.  They are #7 in the league right now.  The Browns and the Eagles were among those good D teams - top half of the league anyway.  NE and Ravens and Cowboys. Miami is a pretty soundly coached team, but they just don't have the hosses.

 

I want to enjoy the win as much as anyone, but I understand the viewpoint.

Well, I do think as I stated, that the total body of work matters. I do think playing better defenses are a good test. But, just throwing out random games because the opponent is deemed unworthy is assinine. These are NFL teams. And, the poster you think is being fair, complains incessantly every time I make a positive Allen comment Win, Lose or Draw. But, if your good with it so be it. Personally, I'm sick of the negative trolling on here. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I see it differently. 

 

I think it's legit to say we should pay more attention to the good teams (not necessarily the teams with the most wins, but the teams with good defense) when we assess Allen's development.

 

Denver would be one of those teams.  They are #7 in the league right now.  The Browns and the Eagles were among those good D teams - top half of the league anyway.  NE and Ravens and Cowboys. Miami is a pretty soundly coached team, but they just don't have the hosses.

 

I want to enjoy the win as much as anyone, but I understand the viewpoint.

 

 

I disagree, and I think I read as much of the board as or more regularly than anyone.

 

 

We have a dynamic here where it's OK to target and personally attack.......even troll/stalk those with negative takes on the team.

 

You'll even often see a mod "liking" posts like that which clearly violate TOS.

 

On the other hand.........if you are pessimistic..........you better stay in your lane and have a thick skin.

 

I know you are working to improve that but that's the way it is.........we can improve a lot there which will improve the quality of discussion.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

We have a dynamic here where it's OK to target and personally attack.......even troll/stalk those with negative takes on the team.

 

You'll even often see a mod "liking" posts like that which clearly violate TOS.

 

On the other hand.........if you are pessimistic..........you better stay in your lane and have a thick skin.

 

I know you are working to improve that but that's the way it is.........we can improve a lot there which will improve the quality of discussion.

Nonsense, you imply the reverse doesn't happen. It is very clear from your posts that you want to be able to spew pessimism unchallenged.  I've been on this board awhile too, and the problem is just the opposite of what you say. That problem is of course too many negative trollers.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

Nonsense, you imply the reverse doesn't happen. It is very clear from your posts that you want to be able to spew pessimism unchallenged.  I've been on this board awhile too, and the problem is just the opposite of what you say. That problem is of course too many negative trollers.

 

 

Oh I've shredded the fools I'm talking about on this board for years for their shoutdown tactics.    I've been an exception though.   I'm working to be more constructive with my feedback.   But most folks who are perceived as negative really gotta' be careful not to respond to inexplicably permitted personal attacks with fire.  

 

Especially if you are new.   Holy ***** is someone new with a skeptical take quickly attacked and threatened with banishment.   Aside from the BBMB mass body dump on here it's fair to assume that usually a high percentage of our new posters are younger than the board average.   It's an information site.  I want young people coming here and expressing their opinions and giving their perspectives.

[Charles Romes]

There have been a number of throws the last few weeks that bring frustration because they are so off the mark including during the three and out possessions last weekend. At the same time he’s quietly built up a streak of 5 games without a pick and a 10/1 TD pass to interception ratio over 6 games.  It’s hard to recall any near picks in this stretch. Thinking about the “missed throws” and the no pick streak these two go together: the misses now are in the area toward the safe side.  Too high when the throw has to be high.  Too low and outside when the throw has to be low and outside.  At the same time we are talking about a career #2 receiver who suddenly for the first time this season is playing like a #1.  The evidence is steadily building in favor of the answer we have all been praying for. 

[iinii]

5 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

No one says he’s the next GOAT.  This kind of hyperbole both ways is why you can’t have a reasonable discussion.

So, why bother?

3 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

Not really, not at all...

Whatever you need to tell yourself