Can the Detractors Now Admit Allen's Growth?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, Figster said:

We dream about what it would be like If Josh Allen had Eric Moulds.

 

Personally, I dream about Deandre Hopkins with occasional forays into Michael Thomas and Tyler Lockett.

[SoTier]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Huh.  Kinda reads to me like you're doing that very thing you're asserting nobody has claimed

Speaking of that "denying reality" thing, lemmee see here....

 

 

 

Can we have a reality check on Aisle Tier please?

 

Just maybe, if Allen and the winning QB (whom you extoll for his MVP level of play and showing he's great) were within a few yards of each other for passing offense and net passing offense, there was some other factor at play, like the field conditions.

 

You're entitled to your opinions, but please fact check and rein in the over-the-top takes.

 

 

 

Mea culpa.  I transposed the rushing yards with the passing yards in the Philly game.

 

I don't hate Allen, and I'm not rooting for him to fail but he's in a tough spot because how far he has to come from where he was when he was drafted to where he needs to be to be considered a good NFL starter is irrelevant.  So is the lack of talent around him or any other excuse for McDermott and Beane's mismanagement of the QB situation since he was drafted.   He has to reach that minimal level, and his progress has been slow.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Huh.  Kinda reads to me like you're doing that very thing you're asserting nobody has claimed

Speaking of that "denying reality" thing, lemmee see here....

 

 

 

Can we have a reality check on Aisle Tier please?

 

Just maybe, if Allen and the winning QB (whom you extoll for his MVP level of play and showing he's great) were within a few yards of each other for passing offense and net passing offense, there was some other factor at play, like the field conditions.

 

You're entitled to your opinions, but please fact check and rein in the over-the-top takes.

 

 

 

[Motorin']

34 minutes ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

It pisses me off the amount of "fans" basically rooting for him to fail.

 

We all knew that Allen was a raw prospect with high ceiling, coming from a no-name high school and a lowly college program in a bad conference. His learning curve is going to be wider and longer than a prospect like Darnold or Mayfield coming from high end college programs. 

 

So I am giving Allen 3 years personally, unless a dramatic dropoff. I am evaluating him on a YEARLY basis. Year one as a whole vs year two as a whole vs year three as a whole.

 

Evaluating him game by game is going to accomplish nothing except start fights.

 

Development is not linear.

 

There seems to be a vocal group of fans that do not believe in the concept of development. They keep saying "you either have it or you don't."

 

There's no guarantee that any QB will develop into a starter/ elite player. But there is a possibility that anyone who finds himself under center in the NFL can grow into starting caliber.

 

There's also at least 6 super bowl winning qb's that had either poor or mediocre years for their first 2-4 seasons who went on to win it all. But the proponents of "you either have it or you don't" trip all over themselves to discount each any every example...

 

I'm willing to give Allen through his 5th season... Eli Manning had a bad 4th year, and then the Giants won it all in his 5th year because they built a championship team around him during that time. Blowing things up ever 3 years is a recipe for a 20 year playoff draught. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Motorin'

[r00tabaga]

16 minutes ago, dakrider said:

 

Thats just ignorant to say Allen has not been playing better.  Allen didn't have a bad game against Cleveland either and the Bills had their chances to win that game.  

Like the Browns game, Bills fans will get to see in these next 2 games what great receivers can do for the passing game.  

 

Part of the reason imo that Allen has had to score rushing TD's is Bills can't count on their RB's to score those, and they don't have a receiver that will actively beat their defender on a jump ball in the endzone. 

Many were scrambles....like yesterday

 

Plus he seems to really enjoy running around. Has a nose for the endzone. 

[VW82]

Can we at least discuss SoTier's overriding point that most of the franchise guys over the last 20 years have shown flashes of being star players for extended periods by their second year. I think that's noteworthy. As I tried to show in those graphs Allen has clearly improved in his career though much less so over the 2019 season. We haven't really seen star level play from him yet, at least not consistently as a passer. If we don't get a glimpse of that by end of this year then it might be time to re-evaluate his long-term potential. I really do think this next stretch of games is going to say a lot about who Allen eventually becomes as a passer. Hopefully he balls out.

Edited November 18, 2019 by VW82

[QuoteTheRaven83]

Allen did well against the Dolphins 3rd and 4th string CB's...Just sayin

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

8 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

There seems to be a vocal group of fans that do not believe in the concept of development. They keep saying "you either have it or you don't."

 

There's no guarantee that any QB will develop into a starter/ elite player. But there is a possibility that anyone who finds himself under center in the NFL can grow into starting caliber.

 

There's also at least 6 super bowl winning qb's that had either poor or mediocre years for their first 2-4 seasons who went on to win it all. But the proponents of "you either have it or you don't" trip all over themselves to discount each any every example...

 

I'm willing to give Allen through his 5th season... Eli Manning had a bad 4th year, and then the Giants won it all in his 5th year because they built a championship team around him during that time. Blowing things up ever 3 years is a recipe for a 20 year playoff draught. 

 

 

 

Those people don't understand context, in general.

Like, say, take the comparison to Roethlisberger. He played on a team with a truly amazing defense, one of the best TEs in the game at the time and a HOF running back.

 

But who needs that kind of information to make a solid judgement?

 

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Those people don't understand context, in general.

Like, say, take the comparison to Roethlisberger. He played on a team with a truly amazing defense, one of the best TEs in the game at the time and a HOF running back.

 

But who needs that kind of information to make a solid judgement?

 

 

Different era, and it doesn't count because my mind is made up... 

 

Joe Flacco and Nick Foles have as many rings as Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Can we at least discuss SoTier's overriding point that most of the franchise guys over the last 20 years have shown flashes of being star players for extended periods by their second year. I think that's noteworthy. As I tried to show in those graphs Allen has clearly improved in his career though much less so over the 2019 season. We haven't really seen star level play from him yet, at least not consistently as a passer. If we don't get a glimpse of that by end of this year then it might be time to re-evaluate his long-term potential. I really do think this next stretch of games is going to say a lot about who Allen eventually becomes as a passer. Hopefully he balls out.

 

Sure, we can discuss it.   List the QB who you regard as franchise guys over the last 20 years, I'll tell you my take on who and what I think you've missed, and discussion can take place.  Also helpful would be to indicate your metric for "flashes of being star players for extended periods"

 

But without some meat around what you see as supporting your contention, it just becomes "is" "is not"

 

I don't want to sound mean about SoTier, but when a guy actually goes and says something like "Allen didn't even pass for 100 yds against the Eagles" and lists Wentz as one of his "star player" QBs but fact, the two were within 2 net yards passing and both >100 yds - well, I can't get too excited about taking a claim on face value and discussing it until someone "stands and delivers" about what and whom they see as backing it up.

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I wrote it on another thread - but man... a lot of QBs i watched yesterday looked absolutely lost.  Watsons holding the ball and probably spiked 10-15 passes into the ground, trubiskey just flat out sucks, wentz can't hit a WR clean from 10-20 yards out, Goff can't hit a single pass that requires any type of velocity (but he can hit a deep ball!).  I think trubiskey is going to get dumped, but Wentz and Goff got paid. 

 

Goff's boundary throws look like peterman - and teams are taking away the deep overs.  Wentz has new receivers every week so part of it might be chemistry - and agholor sucks.  Watson was shocking to watch - had it on my tablet and it was just like... he couldn't deliver the ball on time and was constantly low on throws or getting sacked.

Just now, Motorin' said:

 

Different era, and it doesn't count because my mind is made up... 

 

Joe Flacco and Nick Foles have as many rings as Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. 

 

Yeah - that team can make the playoffs but good luck scoring the amount of points necessary to beat a playoff brees, brady, mahomes, wilson.

[Figster]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

There seems to be a vocal group of fans that do not believe in the concept of development. They keep saying "you either have it or you don't."

 

There's no guarantee that any QB will develop into a starter/ elite player. But there is a possibility that anyone who fins himself under center in the NFL can do so.

 

There's also at least 6 super bowl winning qb's that had either poor or mediocre for their first 2-4 seasons who went on to win it all. But the proponents of "you either have it or you don't" trip all over themselves to discount each any every example...

 

I'm willing to give Allen through his 5th season... 

 

 

Football is a team sport, but team record is a reflection of game management skills from the QB position IMO. I think Allen and the O unit around him has shown growth and with a little fine tuning as seen in the Miami game. Devlop some consistency.

 

Keep feeding Singletary the football any way possible so the motor is firing on all cylinders...

[oldmanfan]

7 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Can we at least discuss SoTier's overriding point that most of the franchise guys over the last 20 years have shown flashes of being star players for extended periods by their second year. I think that's noteworthy. As I tried to show in those graphs Allen has clearly improved in his career though much less so over the 2019 season. We haven't really seen star level play from him yet, at least not consistently as a passer. If we don't get a glimpse of that by end of this year then it might be time to re-evaluate his long-term potential. I really do think this next stretch of games is going to say a lot about who Allen eventually becomes as a passer. Hopefully he balls out.

Sure we can.  It's wrong.  The kid is improving as you say.  I see no reason why he should not continue to improve (and that doe not mean he won't have some more difficult games). 

 

You want the kid to be a star just past the midway point of  his second season.  That simply doesn't happen very often.  I can remember Marino as an exception, maybe Russell Wilson.  It's the most difficult position to play in sports.  It takes some time to master it. 

[thebandit27]

9 minutes ago, QuoteTheRaven83 said:

Allen did well against the Dolphins 3rd and 4th string CB's...Just sayin

 

How's that "franchise QB" Tyrod looking these days?

[H2o]

6 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Those people don't understand context, in general.

Like, say, take the comparison to Roethlisberger. He played on a team with a truly amazing defense, one of the best TEs in the game at the time and a HOF running back.

 

But who needs that kind of information to make a solid judgement?

 

I also remind people that Ben Ro's 3rd year was the worst of his career and his 5th year wasn't that much better. People are always looking for instant gratification. I compared it to a microwavable Hot Pocket. One minute and 30 seconds, boom, it's done. Sometimes it just takes time in general for players to develop. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, dneveu said:

I wrote it on another thread - but man... a lot of QBs i watched yesterday looked absolutely lost.  Watsons holding the ball and probably spiked 10-15 passes into the ground, trubiskey just flat out sucks, wentz can't hit a WR clean from 10-20 yards out, Goff can't hit a single pass that requires any type of velocity (but he can hit a deep ball!).  I think trubiskey is going to get dumped, but Wentz and Goff got paid. 

 

Goff's boundary throws look like peterman - and teams are taking away the deep overs.  Wentz has new receivers every week so part of it might be chemistry - and agholor sucks.  Watson was shocking to watch - had it on my tablet and it was just like... he couldn't deliver the ball on time and was constantly low on throws or getting sacked.

 

I said it elsewhere, but it bears repeating here: people consistently under-estimate the impact that having just a bit more time to throw has on a QB's accuracy.    Even on a play where he isn't under pressure, it's really hard for a QB to not keep "feeling it".

 

Watson's problem yesterday is that he has one great WR right now, Hopkins.  Almost just one receiver.  Hopkins was getting abused all game while the Zebras smiled and used their laundry to polish their glasses.  Fuller has been out with a hamstring and both the TE the Texans hoped would contribute off-season are on IR.

That's gonna be our problem against some teams like NE and the Ravens, too, unless one of our other guys takes a big step.

[VW82]

10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Sure we can.  It's wrong.  The kid is improving as you say.  I see no reason why he should not continue to improve (and that doe not mean he won't have some more difficult games). 

 

You want the kid to be a star just past the midway point of  his second season.  That simply doesn't happen very often.  I can remember Marino as an exception, maybe Russell Wilson.  It's the most difficult position to play in sports.  It takes some time to master it. 

 

I'll give you Russell Wilson who's improved a lot throughout his career but he showed big play ability with his arm rookie year. Almost all of the franchise guys showed star potential right away.

 

To clarify, I'm not saying that Josh will be all done improving after year two. I'm saying that if we don't get some flash of greatness from him this year, it's very unlikely he'll ever become a franchise guy unless he's an extreme outlier.  

Edited November 18, 2019 by VW82

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I'll give you Russell Wilson who's improved a lot throughout his career but he showed big play ability with his arm rookie year. Almost all of the franchise guys showed star potential right away.

 

To clarify, I'm not saying that Josh will be all done improving after year two. I'm saying that if we don't get some flash of greatness from him this year, it's very unlikely he'll ever become a franchise guy unless he's an extreme outlier.  

To clarify, I think you've already seen a flash of greatness.  The greats all have the ability  to lead their teams back from behind in the fourth quarter.  My understanding is Allen is one of the top ranked fourth quarter Qbs this season.

 

Yes, he has a ways to go, as does every other young QB.  But I will say something here that I know will be controversial, and I am not saying you feel this way.  it's just that it comes to mind as I'm responding.

 

I believe (sadly) there are some Bills fans who truly do not want to see a successful QB in Buffalo.  They would prefer that the Bills not succeed because it gives them something to complain about, and gives them a reason to pound their chest and say:  See?  I was right!! on a message board. 

 

Granted it's not many, maybe a handful or so.  But all I can say is that reading the board recently, I have seen guys say they'd rather have the team lose as long as a QB throws for 300 yards.  I have seen guys readily admit the only time they want to come on the board to comment is when the team loses so they can harangue everyone with their negative takes. 

 

I keep these things in mind when reading the Allen posts.

[VW82]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sure, we can discuss it.   List the QB who you regard as franchise guys over the last 20 years, I'll tell you my take on who and what I think you've missed, and discussion can take place.  Also helpful would be to indicate your metric for "flashes of being star players for extended periods"

 

But without some meat around what you see as supporting your contention, it just becomes "is" "is not"

 

I don't want to sound mean about SoTier, but when a guy actually goes and says something like "Allen didn't even pass for 100 yds against the Eagles" and lists Wentz as one of his "star player" QBs but fact, the two were within 2 net yards passing and both >100 yds - well, I can't get too excited about taking a claim on face value and discussing it until someone "stands and delivers" about what and whom they see as backing it up.

 

 

 

How about we do it the other way. I can't find a single guy in the last few generations of QBs, basically since Drew Brees, who eventually became a franchise QB who wasn't good or hadn't shown flashes of being really good by end of his second year of playing full time ( and some people would argue Brees did show those flashes). I think you could define good/flashes as public opinion among smart NFL fans with different rooting interests generally agreeing the guy is probably going to be good or has done something worthy of note. 

 

If you're looking for a metric to compare across eras that's tough. The game has changed too much so consensus among smart people that don't all have the same interest is the best we've got. Does Josh qualify based on that? Not among the people who I talk to, or the stuff I'm reading from people covering the league for a living who'd know better than you or me. 

 

I don't know SoTier, but I can understand giving a guy a break for messing up a stat. If there's some a history there of a hidden agenda to manipulate stats in favour of Wentz and against Allen or something then my apologies for saying anything. Just thought he made a good point, and I still think it's a good point.    

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

32 minutes ago, H2o said:

I also remind people that Ben Ro's 3rd year was the worst of his career and his 5th year wasn't that much better. People are always looking for instant gratification. I compared it to a microwavable Hot Pocket. One minute and 30 seconds, boom, it's done. Sometimes it just takes time in general for players to develop. 

I really feel like for Josh to take another step which is beating the top teams, we will need more playmakers. I think as the receiving group goes this year, so goes Josh. I want to see our receiving group consistently get separation against a team like Baltimore or NE. There are not many, if any, QBs who can beat the top teams without enough playmakers. John Brown is one and Dawson Knox may become one. I just wonder what our receivers will do in 2 weeks if John Brown is shutdown.