McDermott Weds Presser: Sullivan asks whether Allen is an improvement over Tyrod

[Maine-iac]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

If you're going to play WHAT IF how about giving Allen Tyrod's O-line and skill players?  I can't think of a single skill position that Tyrod didn't have superior supporting talent at. 

Do you mean Taylors first year, in his first starts as a pro?  The year he made the pro bowl and the team averaged almost 24 ppg?  Or do you mean his last season when he was throwing to practice squad hopefuls and Kelvin Benjamin? 

[BobbyC81]

On 11/14/2019 at 5:22 PM, CincyBillsFan said:

And I can't believe that you actually think Jackson would have worked out here.  The worst thing any team could do to Jackson was to try to make him a pocket passer.  Baltimore deserves kudos for thinking out of the box and showing great imagination in their handling of Lamar.  There is no evidence that the Bills would have followed suit.  And even if they did the Bills didn't have the talent on the O-line and at TE to do what Baltimore did.

 

And to Houston and Kansas City for building their offenses around their QBs talents.  I got sick of hearing the discussion about college QBs and comments that “ he doesn’t come from a Pro style offense” and wondered whether there was an NFL Bible that said “Thou shalt not deviate from a pro style offense”.  Finally these teams made the right moves.

 

Of course, the Bills have had their share of instances where they try plugging round pegs into square holes.  Drives me crazy.  Rex may have been the worst.

[Dr.Sack]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:18 AM, ngbills said:

No way no how. We won games despite Allen not because of him this year. We would at least be 6-3 with almost anyone at QB. 

Ok, boomer.

[njbuff]

We all love Gore and what he has brought to the team.

 

But he needs to ride the pine and give Yeldon a shot.

 

The O has gone stale when Gore is out there.

 

Singletary and Yeldon should really be the combo going forward.

 

I know the Bills won’t do this though. Maybe they if/when it’s too late.

[Nextmanup]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

You better believe Allen is their QB next year, whether he improves or not in these next 7 games.... my guess is he will get most of next year to prove he can be a good starter in this league unless he the improvement isn’t there as the offense struggles/and they lose games.

Right, that's why I'm hoping for a change of some type.

 

The likely end game here is McDermott and Allen are both out at the end of next year, unless Pegula thinks McD has done enough to warrant a second shot at a QB.  We are just stuck right now in the "move on from Josh Allen" phase and it's going to take time to play out.  It sucks!

 

Things could be escalated if we miss the playoffs and do so in a bad way.  Possible, but not probable.

 

 

 

[BigDingus]

On 11/13/2019 at 11:29 AM, GoBills808 said:

Your takes on Allen are proven unreliable. 

 

On 11/13/2019 at 11:32 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

No they are not. He did not play well on Sunday. When I said it after the game you all jumped on me and countless people have come out and said it since. I didn't say bench him, or move on, or he is done. I said he played poorly on Sunday and he needs to play better. 

 

Sounds more like his take is something you don't like hearing...

And a lot of Bills fans this season have had AWFUL takes, blaming everyone & their mother for why we're struggling against awful teams, why we lose, and what needs to be done...but not Allen!

So yeah, Allen needs to improve dramatically, he's hasn't had one full game where he's played well the entire season, and he has a lot of glaring issues, not the least of which being his propensity for fumbles, being the worst deep ball passer in the league for the 2nd straight season, taking bad sacks, struggles reading defenses, trouble figuring out how to beat a pass rush, trouble with timing routes, etc.

He hasn't been awful, but to pretend he's proven to be a franchise guy, or worthy of a high 1st round draft selection is far from the truth.

We have been blessed with a very easy schedule this year, but the record won't always be this favorable. If Allen plays like he has this year next season, you can be certain the Bills will be looking for a new QB going into the 2021 draft.

He's shown that if the defense can either play lights out or keep us in the game, he can do just enough to possibly help us escape with a win against weak opponents. But if the offense is ever in a game where they need to keep pace with an opponent who is showing they're going to keep scoring on us, you know Allen can't put the team on his back & will us to victory. 

[Questionable]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

First when comparing O-lines you have to make it a composite of this year and LAST season.  And yea, I'll take Tyrod's O-line during his 20 game tenure over the amalgam of Allen's O-line through his 20 games.

 

And what about at RB?  A younger, healthy Shady was much better then what we have today.

 

And McD did a complete overhaul because he wanted to rebuild the defense.  And he wanted tto rebuild the defense because he's a defensive guy.  You do know it's possible for a QB to put up great numbers with a strong group of offensive skill players while also having a weak defense?  In fact that's a recipe for 300 yard passing stats in losing games. 

 

And who's saying Tyrod's QB play was bad?  It was average and that won't cut it at $16,000,000 per year. 

 

Not about the MONEY!  Are you naive!  That extra $11,000,000 we have under the CAP to spend is HUGE when you're trying to sign FA's or trying to keep your desirable FA's.  There's no way we resign White if we're paying our QB $16,000,000 per year next season.

 

 

 

16 million a year is nothing for a Qb. 

 

That amount would put your Qb around 20th in the NFL compared the other 32 starters salary. 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Questionable said:

16 million a year is nothing for a Qb. 

 

That amount would put your Qb around 20th in the NFL compared the other 32 starters salary. 

 

Maybe so but it's still $11,000,000 more then they're paying Allen. 

 

And how much money do you think it's going to cost to keep White?  Maybe we can let him go and he can sign with New England and play on the opposite side to Gilmore!

 

EVERY dollar under the CAP counts.  Freedom to maneuver under the CAP is essential to long term success in the NFL.  Money matters.  I'm not sure why I'm even arguing this point.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by CincyBillsFan

[GreggTX]

Tyrod was better than Josh is now, but there's still a chance that Josh will be better someday.

[GreggTX]

9 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

 

Sounds more like his take is something you don't like hearing...

And a lot of Bills fans this season have had AWFUL takes, blaming everyone & their mother for why we're struggling against awful teams, why we lose, and what needs to be done...but not Allen!

So yeah, Allen needs to improve dramatically, he's hasn't had one full game where he's played well the entire season, and he has a lot of glaring issues, not the least of which being his propensity for fumbles, being the worst deep ball passer in the league for the 2nd straight season, taking bad sacks, struggles reading defenses, trouble figuring out how to beat a pass rush, trouble with timing routes, etc.

He hasn't been awful, but to pretend he's proven to be a franchise guy, or worthy of a high 1st round draft selection is far from the truth.

We have been blessed with a very easy schedule this year, but the record won't always be this favorable. If Allen plays like he has this year next season, you can be certain the Bills will be looking for a new QB going into the 2021 draft.

He's shown that if the defense can either play lights out or keep us in the game, he can do just enough to possibly help us escape with a win against weak opponents. But if the offense is ever in a game where they need to keep pace with an opponent who is showing they're going to keep scoring on us, you know Allen can't put the team on his back & will us to victory. 

 

2 responses...

1. You neglected to use the word "inaccurate". His accuracy is better than last year, but only by a sliver.

2. I hope they will be looking for a new QB ASAP, but they may not want to admit that all of Beane's 1st round picks were terrible and suffer with him even longer like Miami did with Tannehill.

[SoCal Deek]

I know I’ll get trashed for this but if the Bills are going to make a second half push for the playoffs they need Josh to RUN! (And hang on to the ball when he’s sliding down.) That’s been missing all season, and the result is that opposing defenses don’t seem to be near as concerned about it as last year. If they’d let (encourage) Josh take off out of the pocket that’ll open a lot of other things for this offense.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Maine-iac said:

If you can argue that Davis was playing decent and cost nothing I guess you could argue anything.  I'm not even going to touch that.

 

 

Yeah, I can argue that. I can argue nearly anything that's true ... and that is true.

 

You 're wrong that I can argue anything. False things, I try to stay away from.

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Questionable said:

16 million a year is nothing for a Qb. 

 

That amount would put your Qb around 20th in the NFL compared the other 32 starters salary. 

 

 

There's no situation in which $16 mill is nothing. It's very very reasonable for a franchise QB. And far too much for a QB who's not a franchise QB.

 

And it's certainly not nothing for a QB who plays like Tyrod. For a guy like that, it's too much. It's not a mistake that Tyrod's new contract has him playing for $5.5 mill a year average. $16 mill was a major overpay and cutting him made a ton of financial sense. Right now, there are four QBs within $5 mill a year up or down from $16 mill a year. Here they are:  Jacoby Brissett, Andy Dalton, Cam Newton and Phillip Rivers. Tyrod does not fit in that group.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, ngbills said:

Then why are they all gone? I thought this team had no talent and McD had to do a complete overhaul?

 

For the record - This OL is a huge upgrade over any of Tyrod OL. And the 2017 Bills dominating WR's of Zay Jones, Deonte Thompson, Andre Holmes with partial years of Jordan Matthews and KB? 

 

 

 

Nobody said this team had no talent before McDermott got here. McD absolutely did have to do a complete overhaul, but not because we had no talent. They needed a massive rebuild because they had no franchise QB - not even a potential franchise QB - and had mid-level talent while they'd far overspent on the cap.

 

They had to rebuild to get a franchise QB and get out of cap hell. A new admin coming in with cap trouble and no QB is not an ideal situation, even if a fair amount of the roster is decent.

 

And Tyrod's OL had some very good guys, Wood, Incognito and Glenn most specifically. They were good. And you conveniently left out that Tyrod wasn't very good at passing in 2016 either, when our top three WRs were Marquise Goodwin, Sammy Watkins and Robert Woods, and we had Percy Harvin besides.

 

It was about the money, about the large amount of money spent on the average supporting cast. And our talent is very young right now. Nowhere near maxed out.

[Real McClappy]

Allen would have outperformed Tyrod his rookie season if he had Roman as OC, a top o-line, Strong WR core and a top 5 running game in the NFL like TT had here.

 

I'm sure this has been stated before as I did not read 20 pages in this thread,  but Sully is a damn Moron for even asking this question. 

 

Someone should ask Sully what Tyrod could have done with the worst O-line I ever seen in Bills history last year and a bunch of WR#3's all around the field?

Edited November 16, 2019 by Real McCoy

[jrober38]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I know I’ll get trashed for this but if the Bills are going to make a second half push for the playoffs they need Josh to RUN! (And hang on to the ball when he’s sliding down.) That’s been missing all season, and the result is that opposing defenses don’t seem to be near as concerned about it as last year. If they’d let (encourage) Josh take off out of the pocket that’ll open a lot of other things for this offense.

 

It's been missing because he's been getting lit up by defenders at the end of those runs.

 

Running is not a long term solution for Allen's game. It'll just wind up with him getting injured. 

He's a big target and he doesn't like to slide. 

[Billl]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:53 PM, BarleyNY said:

That’s weak af.  Seriously this has gone off the rails.  Those picks would be used on players that would be on 3 rookie deals and could replace veterans making veteran salaries.  There’s actually a calculation for what picks are worth in cap dollars.  Or maybe we could just consider the extra wins three more quality players could lead us to.  Wow.

This is quickly becoming my new favorite narrative on the board to defend sweet baby Josh.  First it was "he's not an inaccurate passer, he's just imprecise".  Then it was "leading the NFL in fumbles since he's been in the league doesn't mean he has a ball security issue as long as his teammates recover a lot of them".  Now it's "spending a high first and two second round picks isn't a big investment because rookies hey paid less than veterans".

 

I especially like this one because you could literally trade your entire draft for the next three years for the right to draft Trevor Lawrence next year and claim that it wasn't a large investment at the QB position.  It's brilliant.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Billl

[Silvio]

Given the schedule, I think this is a one loss team if TT was QB.  

[Nextmanup]

8 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I know I’ll get trashed for this but if the Bills are going to make a second half push for the playoffs they need Josh to RUN! (And hang on to the ball when he’s sliding down.) That’s been missing all season, and the result is that opposing defenses don’t seem to be near as concerned about it as last year. If they’d let (encourage) Josh take off out of the pocket that’ll open a lot of other things for this offense.

After watching the Baltimore vs. New England game, I made a similar comment.

 

I LOVE how Baltimore is using Lamar Jackson.  They have cleverly whipped up a scheme that is tailor made to what he brings to the table, and wouldn't work very well with most other QBs.

This is exactly how coaching in all sports should be done, but it almost never is.  The coach only knows how to do it "his way" and he forces that philosophy on the team.  Should be other way around.  You devise a plan around what will work with what you have.  

 

Keeping in mind that the only really good thing Allen does or which can be considering dangerous is RUN WITH THE BALL I agree he should be doing it a hell of a lot more and in more clever, unconventional ways.

 

If he turns into a fumble machine or gets injured, so be it!  You have to go with what he brings to the table, shoot with both barrels, and hope for the best.

 

McDermott and Dabboll are going about it in totally the opposite way.

 

They are forcing him to try to be what he is not: a pre-snap, defense reading, pocket passer.

 

The results speak for themselves.

 

He ain't no Aaron Rodgers and he ain't ever gonna be.

 

Cut him loose and let's see how it goes.

When he was doing that last year, he ran for 100+ yards 3 games in a row!  Didn't he?

How many guys have done that?  

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Nextmanup

[3rdand12]

8 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I know I’ll get trashed for this but if the Bills are going to make a second half push for the playoffs they need Josh to RUN! (And hang on to the ball when he’s sliding down.) That’s been missing all season, and the result is that opposing defenses don’t seem to be near as concerned about it as last year. If they’d let (encourage) Josh take off out of the pocket that’ll open a lot of other things for this offense.

why get trashed. back half of the season and they have whats his name backing allen up. and he can play football too.
Go for it, let Allen do his thing. so disruptive for defenses and then everyone gets open or has man coverage at least : )

6 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

It's been missing because he's been getting lit up by defenders at the end of those runs.

 

Running is not a long term solution for Allen's game. It'll just wind up with him getting injured. 

He's a big target and he doesn't like to slide. 

not the long term answer for sure. But yes, to get us into the playoffs. and if he gets injured he will have the offseason to recover.

 Barkley can handle the game if Allen goes down.

1 hour ago, Silvio said:

Given the schedule, I think this is a one loss team if TT was QB.  

ouch