ngbills Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 33 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said: How long was Tyrod in the NFL before he got his 20 starts, and how long was Allen in the NFL before he got his 20 starts. People love to nit pick to push their agendas while ignoring some facts. The fact is Tyrod was in the NFL for 3-4 years learning behind Flacco before he got his chance and did not out perform a rookie in his first 20 starts. Why are they not bringing this up? Does not matter for a number of reasons. 1. We are talking about level/quality of play. If Tyrod and that offense was not up to par then Allen and this offense are not up to par. Who cares about age, cost or any other parameter. 2. If you want to talk about experience then you have to also talk about things like Tyrod being a 6th round pick and Allen a top 10. Allen being picked as a franchise QB vs Tyrod as possible back up and not even making the roster. 3. You cannot compare Allen only to Tyrod and nothing else. You have to compare what other QB's drafting in the same time frame as Allen have been able to do. Lastly, you can say Allen has not played well and still be a Bills fan. You can be unhappy with his play and still want him to succeed. You dont have to be a blind cheerleader and make up an excuse for any negative comment about Allen.
Maine-iac Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, Z-Mann said: People keep throwing smoke bombs left and right...how Tyrod was a vet and Allen is not, how the comparison is Tyrod's last 20 versus Allen's first 20...while all of that is not wrong, it's also missing the point. If we take the bank of 20 games that Tyrod had, and we can come to the conclusion that it "wasn't good enough" or "not a good QB", and compare those to the bank of 20 games that Allen has, logically we have to draw the same conclusion...that RIGHT NOW Allen is not good enough, and that he is a far below average QB. That doesn't mean that Allen can't improve, that doesn't mean that Allen may have not hit his ceiling yet in those 20 games and Tyrod had...just means that in the past 20 games, Allen has not played well and we need MORE from him. We hope that comes with more experience, but right now he's not good enough... Allen has a defense and is winning. That is why Allen will get all the time in the world. If this team was playing with the defense they fielded Taylor's first two years no job would be safe right now.
oldmanfan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 Allen comes through in the fourth quarter. Taylor didn’t. Big difference.
Maine-iac Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 13 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah, great point about Vontae. The guy cost us virtually nothing and was playing decent before he decided to quit. If you can argue that Davis was playing decent and cost nothing I guess you could argue anything. I'm not even going to touch that.
ngbills Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 1 hour ago, oldmanfan said: Allen comes through in the fourth quarter. Taylor didn’t. Big difference. This is a huge myth. I refuse to give Josh credit for almost losing to awful teams and then fighting tooth and nail, with the help of a dominant defense to beat an awful team. Bad teams are bad mainly because they dont know how to close out games and win. Make some 4th quarter wins vs good teams and then we can talk.
CincyBillsFan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Maine-iac said: Allen has a defense and is winning. That is why Allen will get all the time in the world. If this team was playing with the defense they fielded Taylor's first two years no job would be safe right now. If you're going to play WHAT IF how about giving Allen Tyrod's O-line and skill players? I can't think of a single skill position that Tyrod didn't have superior supporting talent at.
CincyBillsFan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Z-Mann said: If we take the bank of 20 games that Tyrod had, and we can come to the conclusion that it "wasn't good enough" or "not a good QB", and compare those to the bank of 20 games that Allen has, logically we have to draw the same conclusion...that RIGHT NOW Allen is not good enough, and that he is a far below average QB. But to come to your conclusion you leave out some important info: * Tyrod wasn't good enough at $16,000,000 per year. At $5,100,000 per year Allen is. * Tyrod was at the plateau of his skill set, Allen hopefully is not. * Tyrod enjoyed a better supporting cast on offense then Allen does. When I hand my QB a more expensive & talented group, then I have higher standards about what is good enough.
ngbills Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: If you're going to play WHAT IF how about giving Allen Tyrod's O-line and skill players? I can't think of a single skill position that Tyrod didn't have superior supporting talent at. Then why are they all gone? I thought this team had no talent and McD had to do a complete overhaul? For the record - This OL is a huge upgrade over any of Tyrod OL. And the 2017 Bills dominating WR's of Zay Jones, Deonte Thompson, Andre Holmes with partial years of Jordan Matthews and KB? 4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: But to come to your conclusion you leave out some important info: * Tyrod wasn't good enough at $16,000,000 per year. At $5,100,000 per year Allen is. * Tyrod was at the plateau of his skill set, Allen hopefully is not. * Tyrod enjoyed a better supporting cast on offense then Allen does. When I hand my QB a more expensive & talented group, then I have higher standards about what is good enough. Come on . Just wrong. Bad QB play is wrong at any price. Not about the money. No on supporting cast. And if so that is scary to think our GM/Coach have downgraded the talent in year 3 of the process... 1 1
CincyBillsFan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, ngbills said: Then why are they all gone? I thought this team had no talent and McD had to do a complete overhaul? For the record - This OL is a huge upgrade over any of Tyrod OL. And the 2017 Bills dominating WR's of Zay Jones, Deonte Thompson, Andre Holmes with partial years of Jordan Matthews and KB? Come on . Just wrong. Bad QB play is wrong at any price. Not about the money. No on supporting cast. And if so that is scary to think our GM/Coach have downgraded the talent in year 3 of the process... First when comparing O-lines you have to make it a composite of this year and LAST season. And yea, I'll take Tyrod's O-line during his 20 game tenure over the amalgam of Allen's O-line through his 20 games. And what about at RB? A younger, healthy Shady was much better then what we have today. And McD did a complete overhaul because he wanted to rebuild the defense. And he wanted tto rebuild the defense because he's a defensive guy. You do know it's possible for a QB to put up great numbers with a strong group of offensive skill players while also having a weak defense? In fact that's a recipe for 300 yard passing stats in losing games. And who's saying Tyrod's QB play was bad? It was average and that won't cut it at $16,000,000 per year. Not about the MONEY! Are you naive! That extra $11,000,000 we have under the CAP to spend is HUGE when you're trying to sign FA's or trying to keep your desirable FA's. There's no way we resign White if we're paying our QB $16,000,000 per year next season. Edited November 15, 2019 by CincyBillsFan
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 17 hours ago, Bakin said: Allen has lost 5 Fumbles. ....yup....a 21 game VETERAN....and TT has been in the league how long?....seems like a valid comparison......
oldmanfan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 1 hour ago, ngbills said: This is a huge myth. I refuse to give Josh credit for almost losing to awful teams and then fighting tooth and nail, with the help of a dominant defense to beat an awful team. Bad teams are bad mainly because they dont know how to close out games and win. Make some 4th quarter wins vs good teams and then we can talk. Facts are otherwise.
Mat68 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Facts are otherwise. Buffalo hasnt had a Qb who could do that vs poor teams or any teams with better defenses for the better part of 20 years. As a second year Qb Allen is doing fine. They lost 2 close games. One game he didnt finish. Against Philly the team just got punched in the mouth and that happens to everyone in the NFL. If anything I think the offense needs to be more aggressive and uptempo. They go stale with Gore up the middle first and second down. Allen for the most part when they need a drive he delivers. Only game he didnt was vs Philly. Supposedly more pro ready QBs are well behind Allen in development. 1
oldmanfan Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mat68 said: Buffalo hasnt had a Qb who could do that vs poor teams or any teams with better defenses for the better part of 20 years. As a second year Qb Allen is doing fine. They lost 2 close games. One game he didnt finish. Against Philly the team just got punched in the mouth and that happens to everyone in the NFL. If anything I think the offense needs to be more aggressive and uptempo. They go stale with Gore up the middle first and second down. Allen for the most part when they need a drive he delivers. Only game he didnt was vs Philly. Supposedly more pro ready QBs are well behind Allen in development. Yeah. I think the bit about playing fearless relates to this somewhat. Allen needs to play the first three quarters like he plays the fourth. 1
Mat68 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Yeah. I think the bit about playing fearless relates to this somewhat. Allen needs to play the first three quarters like he plays the fourth. I think McDermott needs to change his formula for success. Imo Daboll takes the heat for McDermott's philosophy. Pass to get the lead, run the ball play good defense to keep it. By doing so the offense loses its sync. Daboll is a NE/Saban guy. Keep doing what your doing til they stop you. Than change. I watch the offense move up and down the feild. Go conservative, need to score. Move up and down the feild again all year.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: If you're going to play WHAT IF how about giving Allen Tyrod's O-line and skill players? I can't think of a single skill position that Tyrod didn't have superior supporting talent at. I'd take our current OL over any OL in 15-17. WR was definitely best in 15. I'd say 16 is similar to this year and 17 is similar to last year. This isn't intended to be a knock on anyone, but this year was the first time talent was added to our O since 2015.
CircleTheWagons99 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Maine-iac said: Allen has a defense and is winning. That is why Allen will get all the time in the world. If this team was playing with the defense they fielded Taylor's first two years no job would be safe right now. You can blame the defense on the genius Rex. He RUIEND a top 5 defense in less then one year.
billsfan89 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 It's kind of an irrelevant question Tyrod or Josh. I liked Tyrod I thought he was a game manager who bought some dynamics with his legs and would make a big play now and again but was far to risk averse and unable to consistently work within the pocket. Tyrod was what he was after 2017 and the Bills decided to move on and got solid compensation for him. Tyrod is the type of QB who is as good as the team around him. Put a team with a good defense, solid special teams, and some good weapons and offensive talent he can win you 10+ games, put a bad team around him and he will win you 6 games. However unless he has a Godly team around him he is never going to get you into contention let alone consistent contention. Josh on the other hand is good with his legs, works well within the pocket, and has had sloppy turnovers but has cut down on that. He has trouble with a consistent long ball but work well within the 0-15 range and OK in the 15-25 range. But Josh regardless of wither or not at this very moment is an upgrade or downgrade over Tyrod is completely irrelevant. Josh is not a finished product. He has the ability to be a top 10 QB in the game if he finds that long ball ability again, continues to improve his decision making and gets a slightly better feel for the game. The Bills are developing a QB not working with a player who is for the most part capped out as to what he can improve to.
ngbills Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 58 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Facts are otherwise. Really? What are these clutch wins we are talking about that separates Allen from the pack? The win vs a NYJ team that is 2-7? Or the one vs CIN that is 0-9? I must have missed Tyrod's game winning drives vs. HOU and TEN in 2015 or the TB and ATL games in 2017.
Nextmanup Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, ScottLaw said: Yea. The whole he’s great in the 4th quarter is completely overblown. He was awful against Philly in the fourth and made some good throws against the Jets and Bengals to win games against two of the worst in the league. No idea where the narrative came from that Tyrod couldn’t put together big drives when they needed him to. On top of those you mentioned, he did it a few times in 2016 as well against Seattle and Miami. He just wasn't consistently good enough..... much like Allen isn’t to this point.... good thing for Allen is he’s still young and hopefully still growing in this league. Hence the thread about Jerry Sullivan asking McDermott about the comparison. The fact is we replaced a guy who "wasn't good enough" with a guy who is pretty much the same in any meaningful way. Sure, Allen can improve but he's played 21 games now, more than Tyrod had under his belt when he became a Bill. EJ got 14 games and was out; Tyrod ended up with 44 as a Bill, but only 15 of those games were played under McDermott, which was enough for him to conclude Tyrod wasn't the guy. Josh will have played 28 games at the end of this regular season, assuming he stays healthy. That's enough to know who he is. My fear is nothing changes after this season and so we have to sit through another Allen season next year before we can work to improve at the position. Edited November 16, 2019 by Nextmanup
ngbills Posted November 16, 2019 Posted November 16, 2019 12 minutes ago, ScottLaw said: Yea. The whole he’s great in the 4th quarter is completely overblown. He was awful against Philly in the fourth and made some good throws against the Jets and Bengals to win games against two of the worst in the league. No idea where the narrative came from that Tyrod couldn’t put together big drives when they needed him to. On top of those you mentioned, he did it a few times in 2016 as well against Seattle and Miami. He just wasn't consistently good enough..... much like Allen isn’t to this point.... good thing for Allen is he’s still young and hopefully still growing in this league. Short term memory loss and creating a narrative. Fitz had a few as well. And those old enough to remember saw all the Flutie magic. I
Recommended Posts