McDermott Weds Presser: Sullivan asks whether Allen is an improvement over Tyrod

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

56 minutes ago, ngbills said:

 

 

 

2016 Tyrod

Did that graphic designer come from a galaxy far far away?

[Bruffalo]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

 

 

 

2016 Tyrod

 

 

Does this take in account for WR drops?  This could be pretty misleading if you don't consider the supporting cast.

 

Ultimately I think the comparison is almost completely meaningless regardless.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Bruffalo

[NoHuddleKelly12]

6 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Did that graphic designer come from a galaxy far far away?

Great, thanks—now I can’t get a certain John Williams soundtrack out of my mind...

[Reed83HOF]

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

The Bills paid picks 12, 53 and 56 for Allen. Plus a fully guaranteed $21M contract over 4 years.  That’s a lot.  I am absolutely not saying that Tyrod should’ve been the answer, but don’t act like Allen didn’t cost a lot. 

 

That's $5.25M per year for Allen.  I believe in 2017 the Bills paid Tyrod $14.5M and if they had stuck with him in 2018 the cost would have been $16M.  So from a cost & cap standpoint Allen is costing the Bills about ONE THIRD what Tyrod would have cost them in 2018 & 2019.

 

The Bills decided to tear down the O and redirect the money to rebuilding the D.  Keeping Tyrod, to manage the game and with little future upside, at $16M per year didn't make sense when you could draft a rookie QB who would make $5M per year, likely be able to game manage and have the potential to get significantly better in the future.  It was a NO BRAINER.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

I still can't wrap my head around how stupid Sullivan's point is.  I would expect more thought from a drunk Bills fan at closing time. 

 

It's simple, in his first 20 starts Sullivan shows data indicating that Allen has roughly matched Tyrod's QB stats at about ONE THIRD the cost to the Bills!  That alone would make the move smart.  But with Allen we have a very real chance that he will get better, perhaps MUCH better.  With Tyrod what we had was what we could ever expect to have. 

 

And even a casual glance at the O-line, RB's, TE's & WR's Tyrod had to work with over his last 20 games compared to what Allen has had over his first 20 games would clearly show that Tyrod was working with a lot more. 

 

Allen may not get much better.  But the Bills are going to be smart and patient and give him at least a full 3 years (and IMO it should be 4 years) to match what they gave Tyrod.  If Allen doesn't work out they don't have to give him a new contract and they can let him go. 

 

IMO though at this time next year the obsession on 2BD will be if we're going to pay Allen what he's worth and that if we don't we might lose him.  And we'll find that worrying about that is just as bad as worrying about whether Allen is a bust who can't hit the deep ball.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, Billl said:

You're basically saying that the media will criticize bad QBs regardless of whether they are signed in FA, traded for, or drafted.  What do you expect them to say?  "Buffalo's got the 31st rated passer in the league, but good news...at least they spent a ton of draft capital on him."

 

I don't think anyone would have criticized the team if the FA they signed was Peyton Manning or if the QB they drafted was Pat Mahomes.

 

 

I'm saying that Jerry Sullivan shouted and screamed for the Bills to prioritize QB (and draft one in the Top 10), instead of relying on below-average vets.  

They did that.

 

Now we are in the middle of Josh Allen's second year, and Sullivan is comparing his statistics to a 7-year-vet -- and clearly suggesting our front office was dumb for taking him instead of sticking with Tyrod Taylor.  

 

If Sullivan wants to criticize the Allen pick after he's actually been in the NFL for 3-4 years, then fine.  Until then, he needs to shut his loud mouth and be patient like the rest of us.  He has no idea what Allen is going to turn out to be.  If he wants to criticize us for trading Taylor, he's being a massive hypocrite and flip-flopping on his position just for the sake of complaining.

 

[mjt328]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Have a look around the league.

These guys don't get forever.

 

As I mention every day around here, EJ Manuel was sized up, analyzed, and spit out in FOURTEEN GAMES.

 

That was it.

 

 

EJ Manuel lost his starting job after 14 games.

I absolutely agree this was too soon to bench him.  He needed to be given at least 3-4 seasons.

 

However, Manuel was also kept on the roster for two additional years to develop.  He was given the full opportunity to win the starting job prior to his third season, and lost out to Tyrod Taylor.  He was given two chances to start during that same season (due to Taylor's injury) and unfortunately looked terrible.

 

Regardless... Saying that Manuel didn't get a fair shake isn't a good reason to dump Allen as well.  You learn from previous mistakes.  Not by repeating them.

 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

54 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I yam what I yam!

[Reed83HOF]

8 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

I yam what I yam!

I thought the same exact thing! 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

I thought the same exact thing! 

There have been at least a couple of pictures where ‘emotional Coach McD’ looks like Popeye.  Going back to his first season, I think someone gave him a sketched in cap and pipe.  Well blow me down!   Ack!  Ack!  Ack!  Ack! 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Did that graphic designer come from a galaxy far far away?

 

1 hour ago, Bruffalo said:

 

 

Does this take in account for WR drops?  This could be pretty misleading if you don't consider the supporting cast.

 

Ultimately I think the comparison is almost completely meaningless regardless.

 

...so you don't think comparing a guy with seven years experience in 48 games to a guy with 1 1/2 seasons and 21 games in fair?.....1 1/2 seasons and 21 games  is  criteria to define a "career" according to the "TBD Urban Dictionary".......

[BarleyNY]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That's $5.25M per year for Allen.  I believe in 2017 the Bills paid Tyrod $14.5M and if they had stuck with him in 2018 the cost would have been $16M.  So from a cost & cap standpoint Allen is costing the Bills about ONE THIRD what Tyrod would have cost them in 2018 & 2019.

 

The Bills decided to tear down the O and redirect the money to rebuilding the D.  Keeping Tyrod, to manage the game and with little future upside, at $16M per year didn't make sense when you could draft a rookie QB who would make $5M per year, likely be able to game manage and have the potential to get significantly better in the future.  It was a NO BRAINER.

 

 

Again, I’m not saying we should’ve stuck with Tyrod. My main point is that we spent picks 12, 53 & 56 on Allen (in addition to the $21M for 4 years).  That is a huge investment and to ignore it and only look at salary is irresponsible (or intentionally misleading). 

[CincyBillsFan]

14 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Again, I’m not saying we should’ve stuck with Tyrod. My main point is that we spent picks 12, 53 & 56 on Allen (in addition to the $21M for 4 years).  That is a huge investment and to ignore it and only look at salary is irresponsible (or intentionally misleading). 

 

That's not my definition of a "huge investment".  They had extra picks and traded a couple of them to move up and take Allen.  Had we NOT used those picks to move up and stayed pat we would most likely have taken the other Josh as in Josh Rosen.  How do you think that would have worked out? 

 

And before you say maybe the Bills trade down and take Jackson - Lamar would have failed in Buffalo because there is ZERO evidence that this organization would have adapted their O to fit Jackson's style.   And while Jackson benefited from a playoff caliber O line & TE group in Baltimore how do you think he does with the Bill's 2018 O line & TE's?

 

And money does matter.  Had Tyrod stayed, in 2018 & 2019 the Bills would have sank about $35M in their QB for TWO years.  They're paying Allen $21M for FOUR years.  That's a lot of extra money to pay FA's with.

 

 

 

 

[BarleyNY]

28 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

That's not my definition of a "huge investment".  They had extra picks and traded a couple of them to move up and take Allen.  Had we NOT used those picks to move up and stayed pat we would most likely have taken the other Josh as in Josh Rosen.  How do you think that would have worked out? 

 

And before you say maybe the Bills trade down and take Jackson - Lamar would have failed in Buffalo because there is ZERO evidence that this organization would have adapted their O to fit Jackson's style.   And while Jackson benefited from a playoff caliber O line & TE group in Baltimore how do you think he does with the Bill's 2018 O line & TE's?

 

And money does matter.  Had Tyrod stayed, in 2018 & 2019 the Bills would have sank about $35M in their QB for TWO years.  They're paying Allen $21M for FOUR years.  That's a lot of extra money to pay FA's with.

 

 

 

 

Wow, there are some massive reaches in that post.  It’s embarrassingly weak.  I stopped taking your post seriously after you wrote that using picks 12, 53 & 56 wasn’t a huge investment.

 

I didn’t bring up Jackson, but discounting whether he’d be successful or not here based on assuming that we wouldn’t tailor the offense to him is pathetic.  And then you immediately discounted Rosen here.  He looks like a total bust, but he’s been on the two worst teams of each of the last two years.  Why isn’t that due to HIS situation?  Why wouldn’t this have been a better situation for him?

 

Again, for maybe the fourth or fifth time, Tyrod wasn’t the only other choice.  I didn’t want to keep him around for $16M when the Browns were offering up the 65th pick.  What about players like Kirk Cousins or even Case Keenum?  Both were free agents and both have outplayed Allen by a wide margin.  Cousins has been very, very good and Keenum has been decent.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Wow, there are some massive reaches in that post.  It’s embarrassingly weak.  I stopped taking your post seriously after you wrote that using picks 12, 53 & 56 wasn’t a huge investment.

 

I didn’t bring up Jackson, but discounting whether he’d be successful or not here based on assuming that we wouldn’t tailor the offense to him is pathetic.  And then you immediately discounted Rosen here.  He looks like a total bust, but he’s been on the two worst teams of each of the last two years.  Why isn’t that due to HIS situation?  Why wouldn’t this have been a better situation for him?

 

Again, for maybe the fourth or fifth time, Tyrod wasn’t the only other choice.  I didn’t want to keep him around for $16M when the Browns were offering up the 65th pick.  What about players like Kirk Cousins or even Case Keenum?  Both were free agents and both have outplayed Allen by a wide margin.  Cousins has been very, very good and Keenum has been decent.

 

What do you even mean by a "huge investment"?  They were draft picks.  Had the Bills done nothing then they would only have had the option of drafting Rosen at 12 as it's well known that Arizona was desperately trying to move up to take Allen.  

 

And the team Allen quarterbacked last year was every bit as bad on offense as the 2018 Arizona Cardinals were and this years Miami Dolphins are.  One of the reasons I'm optimistic about Allen is that he landed in just as bad a cluster frack on Offense as Rosen landed in and Allen made it work.   Rosen didn't at two different places.  Don't forget the Dolphins gave Rosen EVERY chance to hold that job and he didn't. 

 

And I can't believe that you actually think Jackson would have worked out here.  The worst thing any team could do to Jackson was to try to make him a pocket passer.  Baltimore deserves kudos for thinking out of the box and showing great imagination in their handling of Lamar.  There is no evidence that the Bills would have followed suit.  And even if they did the Bills didn't have the talent on the O-line and at TE to do what Baltimore did.

 

And do you really think the Bills were serious players to sign Cousins?  First, I doubt we were on Cousin's short list and second talk about HUGE INVESTMENTS!  As for case Keenum, are you kidding me!  I would much rather have Allen, who is still getting better, then Keenum.

 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

Wow, there are some massive reaches in that post.  It’s embarrassingly weak.  I stopped taking your post seriously after you wrote that using picks 12, 53 & 56 wasn’t a huge investment.

 

I didn’t bring up Jackson, but discounting whether he’d be successful or not here based on assuming that we wouldn’t tailor the offense to him is pathetic.  And then you immediately discounted Rosen here.  He looks like a total bust, but he’s been on the two worst teams of each of the last two years.  Why isn’t that due to HIS situation?  Why wouldn’t this have been a better situation for him?

 

Again, for maybe the fourth or fifth time, Tyrod wasn’t the only other choice.  I didn’t want to keep him around for $16M when the Browns were offering up the 65th pick.  What about players like Kirk Cousins or even Case Keenum?  Both were free agents and both have outplayed Allen by a wide margin.  Cousins has been very, very good and Keenum has been decent.

We needed to free up that cap space so we could sign Trent Murphy, Star Lotulelie, and Vontae Davis.  When they brought in Dennison they sealed Taylor's fate.  People upset with Allen's progress now can you imagine if they had kept Dennison on? 

[Troll Toll]

I’m glad Jerry had the balls to ask that question. I hope Sean re-evaluates where they are as an offense. Invest in cheap talent, get cheap results. Maximize Josh’s potential by surrounding him with playmakers. IMO Josh is seriously handicapped by his supporting cast. Josh and Tre White are the only McBeane pickups that aren’t routinely invisible on Sundays.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

What do you even mean by a "huge investment"?  They were draft picks.  Had the Bills done nothing then they would only have had the option of drafting Rosen at 12 as it's well known that Arizona was desperately trying to move up to take Allen.  

 

And the team Allen quarterbacked last year was every bit as bad on offense as the 2018 Arizona Cardinals were and this years Miami Dolphins are.  One of the reasons I'm optimistic about Allen is that he landed in just as bad a cluster frack on Offense as Rosen landed in and Allen made it work.   Rosen didn't at two different places.  Don't forget the Dolphins gave Rosen EVERY chance to hold that job and he didn't. 

 

And I can't believe that you actually think Jackson would have worked out here.  The worst thing any team could do to Jackson was to try to make him a pocket passer.  Baltimore deserves kudos for thinking out of the box and showing great imagination in their handling of Lamar.  There is no evidence that the Bills would have followed suit.  And even if they did the Bills didn't have the talent on the O-line and at TE to do what Baltimore did.

 

And do you really think the Bills were serious players to sign Cousins?  First, I doubt we were on Cousin's short list and second talk about HUGE INVESTMENTS!  As for case Keenum, are you kidding me!  I would much rather have Allen, who is still getting better, then Keenum.

 

 

 

I am done here. This is just too dumb to even respond to and I only got halfway through it.  Have a good night. 

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, Troll Toll said:

I’m glad Jerry had the balls to ask that question. I hope Sean re-evaluates where they are as an offense. Invest in cheap talent, get cheap results. Maximize Josh’s potential by surrounding him with playmakers. IMO Josh is seriously handicapped by his supporting cast. Josh and Tre White are the only McBeane pickups that aren’t routinely invisible on Sundays.

John Brown is one of the most consistent WRs in the league. He’s the only WR other than Michael Thomas to have at least 50 yards in every game this season. You think that is invisible? Jordan Phillips leads the league in sacks for a DT.  Devin Singletary is averaging 5.3 YPC. Tre Edmunds is a freak. None of these players are considered “routinely invisible”. Not sure your point resonates.

Edited November 15, 2019 by YoloinOhio