BillsFanSD Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) Its too soon to come to any kind of firm conclusion on any of these guys, but so far this draft class has fallen far short of what I was expecting, mainly because of Oliver and Ford. Those two need to get it turned around. Edited November 13, 2019 by BillsFanSD
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: Does make me wonder what will become of Croom next year, maybe just move to the owners box? Rose ceremony? ?
Thurman#1 Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Reed83HOF said: Hmmm....Under-sized? So you think a DT who is 6' 1" 287 pounds is undersized in today's NFL? For arguments sake, how do you think a DT who was 6'1"1 287 pounds in the 1990s do with the bigger OLmen back then? I'm not being a turd, just curious because I see this comment a lot on here - is there a feeling that this size has always been too small or is it something newer? Everyone's gotten bigger as time has passed. It was rare to find 300-pounders on the DL, even in the interior, in the 80s, but started to be more common in the 90s and it's just continued, though not as precipitously since drug testing has gotten a bit better. Now, it's rare to find interior guys under 300, and yeah, Oliver is a rare bird at that weight, though Aaron Donald is not far different. Edited November 13, 2019 by Thurman#1
GunnerBill Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Everyone's gotten bigger as time has passed. It was rare to find 300-pounders on the DL, even in the interior, in the 80s, but started to be more common in the 90s and it's just continued, though not as precipitously since drug testing has gotten a bit better. Now, it's rare to find interior guys under 300, and yeah, Oliver is a rare bird at that weight, though Aaron Donald is not far different. Kawann Short (who was my Oliver comp) came in sub 300lbs too. I think since his 2nd year he has generally played around 310 but he was in the 290s when he came out I believe.
jrober38 Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: What would you give him? I graded Knox down because he had huge drops in at least 2 football games. I could see him as a B, but don’t think he’s been consistent enough for anything higher so far I'd give him a B+. Rookie tight ends typically produce nothing, and we've got decent production out of him and he looks like a player who could improve and become an asset for us moving forward.
Augie Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 5 hours ago, mannc said: So I guess your point is that no one should post their opinions of Bills drafts picks on this board until you think enough time has passed to fully and fairly evaluate each pick, right? Well guess what... a lot is already known about players picked in this year’s draft. Dozens of rookies around the league are making a big impact already. That’s not happening with the Bills’ first two picks. It doesn’t mean they are busts, but it’s not a great sign, either. And it’s absolutely a valid topic of discussion here. And it’s also fair to wonder if the current regime is as awesome as people around here keep saying they are. I never said that, nor do I think that. I DO feel this whole thread has a certain slanted agenda to it, but that’s fine too. To each their own. I’ll give it more time. And that is MY right, no?
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: Fair enough. Kroft has been a huge disappointment this year. But, if Knox didn’t look ready the Bills probably never put Jason Croom (last years starter) on IR I don’t think they put Croom on IR if Sweeney didn’t play so well in the preseason. They’d probably just roll with 3 TE’s or make Croom the TE while Kroft recovers That's why I added the word "technically" Agree, it was more a convenience thing based on Sweeney looklng pretty good, keep him around see if all of a sudden he improves or whatever they decide. You know the old expression "A happy wife is a happy like" Maybe it applies to daughters too!
GreggTX Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) Oliver is a D at best, but Ford is an even bigger diasppointment. Beane has been a MAJOR dissapointment. I have lost all confidence in him. I hope we move on soon to a new GM or we'll be doing another rebuild in a short while. Hyde, Singletary and Poyer are his only real successes so far. I just hope Oliver can add some muscle mass and still maintain his mobility. I don't think he has the wingspan to be a solid DE, but I'm not sure on that. Edited November 13, 2019 by GreggTX
Phil The Thrill Posted November 13, 2019 Author Posted November 13, 2019 5 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said: Did you take into account the draft status of each player, and therefore, their expected output or are you assessing them purely based on their raw output and performance up to this point? For me, idc where you were drafted. Once you’re on roster, your job is to perform. Quite often we get caught up in assessing players in relation to where they were picked. Take Tommy Sweeney for example: You gave him a grade likely based on that he was a 7th round pick that made the roster, despite the fact he’s been inactive for a number of games. To me, that’s a D-...Knox has been a key member of this team and has shown decently through his rookie season. I would have him as a B. When comparing the two TEs just based on performance, Knox is clearly more valuable than Sweeney when you put aside where they were selected Yes I took into account where players were drafted. I think it’s fair to expect more out of a #9 overall pick than it is with a 7th rounder like Tommy Sweeney. I could see giving Knox a B, but I do think his drops so far maximize his score at a B-. 22 minutes ago, GreggTX said: Oliver is a D at best, but Ford is an even bigger diasppointment. Beane has been a MAJOR dissapointment. I have lost all confidence in him. I hope we move on soon to a new GM or we'll be doing another rebuild in a short while. Hyde, Singletary and Poyer are his only real successes so far. I just hope Oliver can add some muscle mass and still maintain his mobility. I don't think he has the wingspan to be a solid DE, but I'm not sure on that. I don’t know that I can get behind the idea hat Ford is a bigger disappointment. First off, consider their draft status and the players who were still on the board. There was a lot of good defensive players at #9. When Ford was drafted, the number of quality tackles were flying off the board. Also Ford has been competent at times and have the Bills a few decent starts overall. While Oliver was solid in taking on matchups he was unspectacular. I think it’s fair to want to have seen more out of Oliver
jrober38 Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Reed83HOF said: Hmmm....Under-sized? So you think a DT who is 6' 1" 287 pounds is undersized in today's NFL? For arguments sake, how do you think a DT who was 6'1"1 287 pounds in the 1990s do with the bigger OLmen back then? I'm not being a turd, just curious because I see this comment a lot on here - is there a feeling that this size has always been too small or is it something newer? He's definitely small. I remember hearing something that in 1985 there were like 20 guys in the NFL who weighed more than 300 pounds and now the number is well above 300 of those guys.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 I have been listening to Nick and Nolan alot lately. They have a good saying that I think applies to this thread. That is, expectation - reality = disappointment. Based on your expectations for rookies, you were mostly destined to be disappointed. Sure, you sometimes get day 1 starters in the draft, especially in the first round, but they are rarely difference makers. If you expect them to be, the reality will inevitably cause you to be disappointed. 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 13, 2019 Author Posted November 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: I have been listening to Nick and Nolan alot lately. They have a good saying that I think applies to this thread. That is, expectation - reality = disappointment. Based on your expectations for rookies, you were mostly destined to be disappointed. Sure, you sometimes get day 1 starters in the draft, especially in the first round, but they are rarely difference makers. If you expect them to be, the reality will inevitably cause you to be disappointed. I disagree with that take completely. Look at players drafted in the top 10. All of them are starting for their respective teams....except Ed Oliver. Many are difference makers for their team. Take a look at the OT’s in Round 2. All of them are starting for their teams. How is expecting a high draft pick to be a competent starter? Just a classic example of low-bar setting 1
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Phil The Thrill said: I disagree with that take completely. Look at players drafted in the top 10. All of them are starting for their respective teams....except Ed Oliver. Many are difference makers for their team. Take a look at the OT’s in Round 2. All of them are starting for their teams. How is expecting a high draft pick to be a competent starter? Just a classic example of low-bar setting Aside from Bosa and Murray, the rest have been okay at best. Oliver played pretty will, winning the third most pass rushing snaps in the league. However, he lost his job to a guy that is playing out of his mind. Oliver wasn't being outplayed, for the most part, by anyone else drafted this year. The other tackles are indeed starting, but none of them are playing particularly well. Hell, there have been re-drafts that have Ford being drafted in the top ten. Again, Ford is just being out played by a guy that is doing very well. I think your response is a classic example of not paying attention to the rest of the league. Hence, why your expectations are so off.
mannc Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Augie said: I never said that, nor do I think that. I DO feel this whole thread has a certain slanted agenda to it, but that’s fine too. To each their own. I’ll give it more time. And that is MY right, no? Actually, your post belittles those who dare to express an opinion at this point regarding the Bills’ picks.
Phil The Thrill Posted November 13, 2019 Author Posted November 13, 2019 3 hours ago, mannc said: Actually, your post belittles those who dare to express an opinion at this point regarding the Bills’ picks. Yes it does. 5 hours ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Aside from Bosa and Murray, the rest have been okay at best. Oliver played pretty will, winning the third most pass rushing snaps in the league. However, he lost his job to a guy that is playing out of his mind. Oliver wasn't being outplayed, for the most part, by anyone else drafted this year. The other tackles are indeed starting, but none of them are playing particularly well. Hell, there have been re-drafts that have Ford being drafted in the top ten. Again, Ford is just being out played by a guy that is doing very well. I think your response is a classic example of not paying attention to the rest of the league. Hence, why your expectations are so off. No it’s not.... it’s calling a player who hasn’t panned our well a disappointment. I guess he deserves an A. A Top 10 pick who plays 30% of snaps and is on the bench in the 4th quarter. Makes sense... I’ll bump it up to an A+ if he plays 15%. Thats reality according to Nick and Nolan. Who listens to that show anyway?
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 25 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Yes it does. No it’s not.... it’s calling a player who hasn’t panned our well a disappointment. I guess he deserves an A. A Top 10 pick who plays 30% of snaps and is on the bench in the 4th quarter. Makes sense... I’ll bump it up to an A+ if he plays 15%. Thats reality according to Nick and Nolan. Who listens to that show anyway? A rookie half way through the season by definition cannot be a disappointment.
FeelingOnYouboty Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 Cody Ford needs to be moved inside at RG and Ed Oliver has been a non factor the last month
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: A rookie half way through the season by definition cannot be a disappointment. Well when you should have drafted Metcalf, Oliver IS a disappointment.
Dopey Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said: I disagree with that take completely. Look at players drafted in the top 10. All of them are starting for their respective teams....except Ed Oliver. Many are difference makers for their team. Take a look at the OT’s in Round 2. All of them are starting for their teams. How is expecting a high draft pick to be a competent starter? Just a classic example of low-bar setting I don't like people coming here and being the grammar police, but what? Edit: Never mind, got it. Edited November 13, 2019 by Dopey
EmotionallyUnstable Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said: So how would you grade little ed? lol dude you need to let this go and just zen out for a bit For me, it entirely depends: On one hand, if you look at him like the number nine overall, he’s been extremely disappointing. You want a guy like that to immediately come in and wreak havoc, or at least show up on the stat sheet. He’s played a limited roll in an average run defense and has not been able to manufacturer pressures. To this respect, I’d give him a D+ If you look at it without the context of the draft status, and just say he is a rookie, you’d likely give him a higher grade, maybe a C+. your endless crusade to demafe the name of Ed is not lost on me. It has some substance to it, but I’m trying to take a more wholistic approach in my evaluation. Let’s wait until the season ends, and then this discussion can continue
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