Luka Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Logic said: I agree that Josh deserves credit for the steps he has already taken as a quarterback. What I DON'T like seeing, though, is people putting on blinders and pretending like he's immune from criticism. He has progressed, yes, but he has a long way to go. He currently has the 30th ranked QB rating and 31st ranked completion percentage in the NFL, for instance. He has thrown just 10 TDs throw 9 games, despite playing some of the worst teams in the NFL. Furthermore, as far as "creating rhythm"...how is an offense supposed to have any rhythm when the quarterback fails to hit open receivers so often? How are we supposed to know what identity the offense WANTS to exhibit when the field general of that offense plays so inconsistently and, at times, poorly? I'm not saying it's JUST on Allen. The Bills offense is a combo platter of suck right now. Daboll deserves some blame. I absolutely agree with that. But to say that he deserves the lion's share of the blame or to try to completely absolve Allen of responsibility for how poor the offense is? That's rubbish. Did you not pay attention at all to the breakdowns and GIFs from the Browns game? Cover 1 already DID show that there were options on some -- not all, it's true, but more than a few -- of the plays in which Allen either took a sack or threw an incompletion. Yes, Daboll can do more to help Allen, but Allen needs to start to learn to help himself. He needs to take more steps toward being a big boy quarterback. It's not all on the OC. Daboll is an easy scapegoat right now, because it's easier to want to fire the OC than it is to admit that the 1st round, prize young QB isn't getting the job done. It's not an either/or proposition. BOTH need to improve. But this "it's all on Daboll!" stuff has gotta stop. It's ridiculous. A couple of individual plays don't tell the whole story, only the one you want to hear.
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 12 minutes ago, Logic said: If you think Cover 1 has any sort of vendetta against Allen or was pro-Tyrod and looks for ways to bash Allen, you're nuts. Allen wasn't "bad" on Sunday, you're right. But he also wasn't GOOD ENOUGH to beat the Browns. The Browns packed the box against the Bills, blitzed over 40% of the time, and dared the Bills to beat them through the air, and the Bills couldn't. Josh Allen completed 53.7% of his passes and threw zero touchdowns. That's not good enough against an average to below average Browns defense. People who exclusively blame Brian Daboll are ignoring the many plays he calls where wide receivers ARE open and Allen can't or won't throw to them. It happens a lot. It happened a lot on Sunday. I'm not an Allen hater. I like him and want him to succeed. Just look at my avatar. However, to put all of the blame on Daboll and completely absolve Allen is a chickenshit copout, in my opinion. Im with you. The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal. In this thread fans have blamed: - Daboll for not developing an identity on offense - The WR’s for not being good enough at their position - The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well. Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this? 2
Scott7975 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: So we ignore the talent? The Jets beat the cowboys the falcons beat the Saints Belichick eats young QBs yet the Ravens won. crap happens You forgot the best one... Cleveland beat the beloved Ravens. 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: Like cover 1 said it's sort of a leak concept that the rams use alot. Though McKenzie doesn't fake much of a block so it's hard to call it a true leak.. it's a mesh concept with a vertical up seam McKenzie is fast but I wouldn't call him a true deep threat, he struggles tracking balls downfield while maintaining speed and I think the same happens It wasn't a perfect pass and floated a bit outside his shoulder but he also doesn't look like he tracts it great Most NFL deep threats have 5-10 foot catch radiuses. Think Moulds and TO and Green and Julio. They aren't 5'9 Smurfs that need a PERFECT BALL That ball was within a couple steps and I don't think he tracked it perfectly. Imo a true NFL deep threat who can track a ball and might be a bit bigger could come down with that I feel like all of our WRs look for the ball too early on deep balls .. the best guys leave 5-10% in the tank and can kick it into high gear when the ball is in the air Our guys look like they slow down when tracking a ball Could it be that our guys sometimes look for the ball early because Allen can and does often get it there so fast? Kind of like how rookie QBs have to adjust to the speed of the NFL, maybe our receivers are trying to adjust to the quickness the ball gets there. I think Brown or someone actually commented on it before.
Jrb1979 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Im with you. The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal. In this thread fans have blamed: - Daboll for not developing an identity on offense - The WR’s for not being good enough at their position - The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well. Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this? Cause I think don't want to believe Allen may not be a good QB. They are afraid of having to start over again at QB. Its great his short game has improved but his reading of a defense hasn't and that should worry people.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 27 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Maybe not last week, but yes there was a bomb to either John Brown or Andre Roberts that was close to 20 yards over their head and landed in the endzone in the Washington game. It was a gross overthrow Allen does do that sometimes as a means of throwing the ball away. If you call out the specific game and play I'd be happy to take a look at it. But otherwise, I'll agree with those who are saying that merited criticism of Allen would be better substrate to discuss, if exaggeration were less prevalant.
Scott7975 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: I don't think I said the words suck. He is as inconsistent as Allen and that's why the offense is We haven't developed an identity in 2 years Dabolls been here. He will call 2 good series than 2 bad ones Allen needs consistency in his coaching and gameplanning if he wants to find consistency in his play. 2 way Street What you mean no identity? We have one man.... Its "we want to move the ball and score points. Don't care if its by running or by passing."
CincyBillsFan Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, GoBills808 said: I had a very long SB conversation about this play...this is 100% on McKenzie imo. Allen needs to look the safety off, which he does, but McKenzie is already looking back for the ball before he Allen even goes back to him and lets the ball go. WR is twisting and turning around instead of putting his head down and getting to the spot. RUN. YOUR. ROUTE I agree 100%! That was a good throw if McKenzie finishes the route. What NFL receiver keeps looking side to side on a pass like that? Talk about having "eyes roaming all over the place". Run the damn route and the ball drops right into his hand. You know where I've seen WR's routinely do that when running a deep route? My backyard on Thanksgiving. That's how bad of a look that was. Allen HAS struggled with the deep ball but I suspect it's not all on Allen.
stony Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Luka said: Cover 1 is so full of *****. It's Allen's fault that on a 3rd 3 where the Browns are almost definitely going to blitz, his shortest route option is 10 yards down the field? Daboll knows teams are going to blitz Allen yet here we are, still calling the same, long developing passing plays. You know how you mitigate the pass rush? Run the ***** ball. Call screen passes. Make teams think twice about calling that blitz. I think the FO brought in a bunch of maulers (outside of Morse) to protect Allen. I don't think mobility is their strength; hence, the reason why we suck at screen passes.
CincyBillsFan Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: Like cover 1 said it's sort of a leak concept that the rams use alot. Though McKenzie doesn't fake much of a block so it's hard to call it a true leak.. it's a mesh concept with a vertical up seam McKenzie is fast but I wouldn't call him a true deep threat, he struggles tracking balls downfield while maintaining speed and I think the same happens It wasn't a perfect pass and floated a bit outside his shoulder but he also doesn't look like he tracts it great Most NFL deep threats have 5-10 foot catch radiuses. Think Moulds and TO and Green and Julio. They aren't 5'9 Smurfs that need a PERFECT BALL That ball was within a couple steps and I don't think he tracked it perfectly. Imo a true NFL deep threat who can track a ball and might be a bit bigger could come down with that I feel like all of our WRs look for the ball too early on deep balls .. the best guys leave 5-10% in the tank and can kick it into high gear when the ball is in the air Our guys look like they slow down when tracking a ball Man I'm glad other people are seeing this to. I thought either I was crazy or looking at Allen's throws through fogged up rose colored glasses. But you're 100% right here. On some (yes Allen misses other deep throws) of those deep throws the WR's don't seem to be running the pattern like other NFL wide outs. Think last week with Foster against the Redskins.
Logic Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Luka said: A couple of individual plays don't tell the whole story, only the one you want to hear. On the contrary: watching, say, 7 different plays from one game where receivers are open and Allen isn't hitting them DOES begin to tell a story. The story is "our quarterback needs to improve". I could just as easily state that IGNORING visual evidence of poor play and fixating only on play-calling doesn't tell the whole story, only the narrative you want to push. Again: I don't think all the blame is on Allen. I don't think all the blame is on Daboll. BOTH OF THEM aren't performing well. But it certainly is hard to tell how much of Allen's poor performance is due to Daboll calling bad plays, and how much it just APPEARS that Daboll is calling a bad game because the QB can't execute his gameplan. It's really hard to separate these things. It's a complex relationship. And yet, we have plenty of Bills fans who are certain that it's just Daboll that's to blame. It's ridiculous. 2
John from Riverside Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Does it really matter if it was overthrown by 5, 10 or 20 yards? It wasn’t close and our QB is 0-16 on passes of 30 yards or more. It’s a problem! So why lie about it? 26 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: C'mon John. "20 yards" is more for effect than anything else - he's basically indicating that the balls aren't catchable. Even you aren't that much of a homer to defend Josh A's deep game this season, right? He's been good in other areas, but him hitting zero deep balls has knock-on effects with regard to how teams defend us and the degree to which they're willing to gamble. Do you see me defending Josh Allen's deep throws? Is that what you took from this?
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, John from Riverside said: So why lie about it? I apologize Josh overthrew the WR’s by about 13.3 yards
John from Riverside Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 41 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: Come on...... OK...just show me where he has overthrown anyone by 20 yards. And then go back and re read where I say he is overthrowing deep balls. I will wait Just now, Phil The Thrill said: I apologize Josh overthrew the WR’s by about 13.3 yards This is the opitome of crusading.....telling ***** that doesnt actually exist.
Dopey Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, Luka said: Just like everyone else here, he cherry picks plays to make his point, never addresses anything positive that might show his opinion isn't an absolute. Same childish response you would get here if you refute his point. It's funny because he shows the one play, where Josh has 3 reads to make and he is under considerable pressure almost immediately. He blames Josh but he has no idea what the play call was, what his hot read was. To me it looked like Beasley was his hot read, he sets that way to throw it, has to come off of it and reset and by that time, play is already over. OK, you might get a few that do this, but you done gone too far here. As one of the "everyone else here" settle down, man. Talk about childish.
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Dopey said: OK, you might get a few that do this, but you done gone too far here. As one of the "everyone else here" settle down, man. Talk about childish. That’s like saying “he didn’t overthrow him by 20 yards....it was only 7” 1
Hermes Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, dave mcbride said: It's supposed to be an outside shoulder throw, which is why he was looking that way. Allen threw it inside and about 8 yards farther than he should have. Usain Bolt wouldn't have gotten to that one. After 16 failed attempts to deliver a catchable deep ball to the receiver, the last place I'd look to assign blame is the receiver. And yet if he threw a back shoulder throw like you want him to, the DB is on the outside waiting to make a play. If McKenzie be hasn't slowed up those last five yards he might've had a shot. Not saying Allen was even good because he wasn't... Also look to the scramble and throw to the right side of the endzone where McKenzie failed to make a play. I looked at my wife immediately after that play and said a better receiver scores there.. going back to last year we haven't had a WR, TE or RB bail any of our QBs out yet you see spectacular catches every week in this league. How about the catches Gesecki (sp?) made against us or the TD catch Landry had. It helps when you have playmakers to help out instead of role players 1
Scott7975 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 37 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Im with you. The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal. In this thread fans have blamed: - Daboll for not developing an identity on offense - The WR’s for not being good enough at their position - The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well. Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this? Well I mean, even the media is asking all the coaches what the identity of this offense is supposed to be. The answer is "move the ball and score points." If the coaches come out and pretty much say they don't have an identity then perhaps we shouldn't question fans about it.
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Hermes said: And yet if he threw a back shoulder throw like you want him to, the DB is on the outside waiting to make a play. If McKenzie be hasn't slowed up those last five yards he might've had a shot. Not saying Allen was even good because he wasn't... Also look to the scramble and throw to the right side of the endzone where McKenzie failed to make a play. I looked at my wife immediately after that play and said a better receiver scores there.. going back to last year we haven't had a WR, TE or RB bail any of our QBs out yet you see spectacular catches every week in this league. How about the catches Gesecki (sp?) made against us or the TD catch Landry had. It helps when you have playmakers to help out instead of role players I am certain you’ll see the Bills get more playmakers on offense this offseason. We’ll see how much of a difference it makes. It’s the old QB vs WR debate we’ve had in Buffalo many times. 1 minute ago, Scott7975 said: Well I mean, even the media is asking all the coaches what the identity of this offense is supposed to be. The answer is "move the ball and score points." If the coaches come out and pretty much say they don't have an identity then perhaps we shouldn't question fans about it. I guess....but again, how much of the lack of identity is caused by the limitations of the QB who can’t execute? Edited November 12, 2019 by Phil The Thrill
Heitz Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 47 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Im with you. The amount of excuses for Allen is unreal. In this thread fans have blamed: - Daboll for not developing an identity on offense - The WR’s for not being good enough at their position - The WR’s for not tracking the deep ball well. Ok....so why is the QB getting a pass through all this? Aren't most saying Allen needs to be better? And to me, it's a bit the bullets above PLUS the QB having a shi**y game. Let's hope Josh, the WRs the coaches all learn from this one...
Scott7975 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: I am certain you’ll see the Bills get more playmakers on offense this offseason. We’ll see how much of a difference it makes. It’s the old QB vs WR debate we’ve had in Buffalo many times. I guess....but again, how much of the lack of identity is caused by the limitations of the QB who can’t execute? That would be anyone's guess. It kinda goes back, for me, to that guy that was a defensive head coach and when asked what kind of defense he will run the answer was "we are going to be multiple... 4-3, 3-4.... yadda yadda yadda." Another poster put it to words earlier in the thread far better than I will here.... if there is no continuity in what you are trying to do then how are you supposed to get better? Lets say you suck at playing guitar and you are trying to get better. You practice guitar today and tomorrow you practice the flute. My thought process is this... Allen has a very long way to go. That's what happens when you pick up a project QB. I consider him a project because he didn't play in the awesome of awesome college divisions ( I really know nothing of college football I just know he played in a small time program.) It's going to be a bigger learning curve for him than another QB that is coming from a big time program who had the best of the best coaching. Some of those guys coaches are also designing systems, at least in part, around what that QB knows and does well at. Can you say that about Allen? Is Dabol's system designed around this QB to help him out? I don't think so. I think it's just the system this guy wants to run because he feels its a good system. Be damned who is running it. Kind of like putting Tyrod in a WCO when clearly that is not what Taylor was good at. Now maybe his system is freaking great, but even if it is.... people need some patience with this kid. He isn't going to turn into Brady overnight. Maybe he won't ever turn into a good QB at all, but don't you think it's a little early (you may not be one of these people) to be acting like this kid is a bust? Maybe in the long run it's better for QB progression to be learning this way as opposed to say how Goff and Jackson are learning. Time will tell. I just feel like there is more Daboll could be doing to help this kid out in the meantime than he has been.
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