Nextmanup Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 It's not surprising at all that this piece is not well received at this forum. It's much easier for folks around here to blame Daboll than accept that Allen isn't very good. Fixing the OC is a quicker/easier process than finding a decent QB. As I keep saying, eventually Allen's mediocrity will not be a debatable point.
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: He's young still, very fast...they're trying to develop these guys imo. That was a chance for McKenzie to show out and he didn't. But they're being consistent in giving these guys opportunities by putting them in spots to succeed. I think Brown makes that play but maybe doesn't get as open because he gets more attention from the secondary. I think maybe Foster makes that play but he's in the doghouse atm. I truly respect your opinion, but i don't think anyone is catching that ball. I just think it was flat out overthrown, like all of the others. Every week I feel like we have a debate about the WR looking back to early or not cutting his route short or slowing up at the crucial moment on the deep throws. They're just not accurate, plain and simple.
GoBills808 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, dave mcbride said: I truly respect your opinion, but i don't think anyone is catching that ball. I just think it was flat out overthrown, like all of the others. Every week I feel like we have a debate about the WR looking back to early or not cutting his route short or slowing up at the crucial moment on the deep throws. They're just not accurate, plain and simple. I know we aren't going to agree about this play. And for sure I'm not absolving Allen of his very real struggles with connecting on deep passes this year at all. Just discussing this play in particular, in isolation. 1
billsfan_34 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 44 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: I think that's fair. My admittedly odd opinion - I don't think the Bills are a particularly good rushing team. I think they tend to get stoned at a disproportionately high level on obvious running downs, and neither RB has breakaway ability. The numbers admittedly look alright, and it's not as if they're terrible. I think the larger issue is they simply haven't been able to build two score leads, and that's partly a function of dreadful third quarter performances. They tend to find themselves in a lot of see saw battles where they have to pass late, even against bad teams. The Washington game was an exception, and the running numbers were big in that one. They were behind for most of the game vs Cleveland, NE, the Jets, and Philly, and the even the Dolphins and Cincy had late leads. They threw it more than they ran it vs. TN (36 passes to 27 runs, with 10 by Allen), but Singletary was out in that game and the game was tied in the 4th quarter. Just about all of their good running plays came on the final possession; prior to that they had rushed 18 times for 60 yards against a stout TN d-line. Your opinion is not odd- it is yours and respectful- something we need more of on here. Let me add- 18 for 60 is a little over 3 a clip- not good enough but if you keep at it you will knock a few out and bring those numbers up- cheers and go Bills. 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: This is why in this post, with the selections I gave were the Josh plays and nothing on Daboll - everyone see's issues with flow and going away from what works - this is discussed in like 45673 other threads... It's okay to say Josh still has a way to go and point out the areas he needs to grow in. That doesn't make you a hater, it makes you someone who can look at the entire situation critically and grasp what is actually going on... Well said, my man. I’ve stated many times that I like Josh, but I also get frustrated by the whole “fire the coordinator” mindset of some Bills fans. I get that people want to defend Allen because so many in the media constantly criticize him. It just seems like people want to #blameDaboll because they don’t to face the unpleasant reality that, the critics might be right. At this point, we just don’t know. At this point in the year, do you honestly think that firing Daboll and replacing him with Ken Dorsey or Chad Hall or whoever else is on the staff will make a difference? I am certain it won’t. As for next season, I would still bet on Daboll staying. I think they want as much consistency for Allen as possible and I also think that McDermott is in no danger of getting fired. Since he’s not desperate I can see him not making a move. But then again, he voiced that the offense needs to “score more point,” and statement like that reminded me of what he said about Dennison in the season before he fired him. So who knows. 2
Buffalo716 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: Like this play? Sorry I don't know how to embed Tweets Looks like Allen throws it to where McKenzie starts out running, but the McKenzie veers from his route and can't seem to track the ball at all. It's a very odd route. Was it supposed to be an outside post? You can see McKenzie looking for the ball around 45 on his outside shoulder. Maybe he is expecting it to that shoulder But he shuffles his head a few times trying to track it and undoubtedly slows himself down instead of running to a spot That was a leak mesh vertical concept the rams run alot. They usually design it closer to the sidelines where it looks like McKenzie takes it up the seam He tracks it over his outside shoulder where it looks like it's going then looks like he tries to go back to his inside shoulder, and loses it It's a very similar concept to where baker hit Landry over his outside shoulder late in game 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: It is the coaches job to create an identity on their side of the ball My instead of was pointing out that we haven't had an identity or consistent gameplanning Josh needs to clean up lots of stuff but he also needs consistent gameplanning and an offensive identity to build around If he can’t make reads or throws, the game plan matter. You have to be able to execute
Coach Tuesday Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: You can see McKenzie looking for the ball around 45 on his outside shoulder. Maybe he is expecting it to that shoulder But he shuffles his head a few times trying to track it and undoubtedly slows himself down instead of running to a spot That was a leak mesh vertical concept the rams run alot. They usually design it closer to the sidelines where it looks like McKenzie takes it up the seam He tracks it over his outside shoulder where it looks like it's going then looks like he tries to go back to his inside shoulder, and loses it It's a very similar concept to where baker hit Landry over his outside shoulder late in game Right. I'm not a football expert at all. But from experience, throwing a football (or a frisbee) on a deep line to a moving target is hard enough - but it gets really tough when you don't know which way the guy is going to break. That's why you would prefer to have the route oriented toward a particular flag or the goalpost. It looked to me like Allen threw that one straight on the line McK was running, and that if McK had just kept running that line it might've hit him in stride. But the way that play worked out suggests to me it hasn't been practiced enough... Edited November 12, 2019 by Coach Tuesday 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: McKenzie is just not a complete WR. They are trying to push him into that role because until/unless he poses a threat on other routes, he's become a "tell" that the Bills will be running some kind of Jet sweep type play. To his credit, he made a nice reception on a slant pass in the Redskins game. But why the Bills keep trying to use guys as deep ball receivers who just ARE NOT (I'm talking about you, Zay Jones and Cole Beasley, and now McKensie too) I do not know it’s tough for a WR to be a deep ball threat when your QB is constantly throwing the ball 20 yards over your head. Would better WR’s help Josh out more? Probably, but it’s hard to find more fault with the team’s WRs than the play of the QB
John from Riverside Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, Phil The Thrill said: it’s tough for a WR to be a deep ball threat when your QB is constantly throwing the ball 20 yards over your head. Would better WR’s help Josh out more? Probably, but it’s hard to find more fault with the team’s WRs than the play of the QB WHY do you continue to make total exaggerations to make your points? NONE of these balls have been "20 yards over there head" In McKenzie's case....he slowed down when he turned his head around tracking the ball....look at the film. 1
Buffalo716 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said: Right. I'm not a football expert at all. But from experience, throwing a football (or a frisbee) on a deep line to a moving target is hard enough - but it gets really tough when you don't know which way the guy is going to break. That's why you would prefer to have the route oriented toward a particular flag or the goalpost. It looked to me like Allen threw that one straight on the line McK was running, and that if McK had just kept running that line it might've hit him in stride. But the way that play worked out suggests to me it hasn't been practiced enough... The way that concept is usually drawn up I would believe McKenzie should have stayed down the seam or possibly slightly drifting towards the sideline to give Allen more room
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: WHY do you continue to make total exaggerations to make your points? NONE of these balls have been "20 yards over there head" In McKenzie's case....he slowed down when he turned his head around tracking the ball....look at the film. Maybe not last week, but yes there was a bomb to either John Brown or Andre Roberts that was close to 20 yards over their head and landed in the endzone in the Washington game. It was a gross overthrow Edited November 12, 2019 by Phil The Thrill
John from Riverside Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, Phil The Thrill said: Maybe not last week, but yes there was a bomb to either John Brown or Andre Roberts that was close to 20 yards over their head and landed in the endzone in the Washington game. It was a gross overthrow Not 20 yards...... Five yards? Yes Overthrown? Yes (except the one Foster failed to track) It really is not needed to prove your point to say something that is not true....Josh has had problems with his deep ball.
Coach Tuesday Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Not 20 yards...... Five yards? Yes Overthrown? Yes (except the one Foster failed to track) It really is not needed to prove your point to say something that is not true....Josh has had problems with his deep ball. Come on...... 1 1
Logic Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said: The modern age has turned everybody into an armchair GM and a scout Hindsight is 2020 and looking back at things are easy. Josh Allen wasn't the greatest but he wasn't bad. He made a good amount of big time throws Cover 1 always tried to look for everything to make Tyrod look good and always had excuses for him. A 28 year old vet Now we got a 23 year old with actual QB talent and he tries to put the pressure on him Instead of an OC who DOESN'T DEVELOP RHYTHM OR AN IDENTITY THROUGHOUT 9 WEEKS OF THE SEASON QBs don't develop overnight or in 2 games... It's a steady development over years and if you are angry about where Josh is in his development, idk what to tell you because he's way ahead of where I thought he'd be If you think Cover 1 has any sort of vendetta against Allen or was pro-Tyrod and looks for ways to bash Allen, you're nuts. Allen wasn't "bad" on Sunday, you're right. But he also wasn't GOOD ENOUGH to beat the Browns. The Browns packed the box against the Bills, blitzed over 40% of the time, and dared the Bills to beat them through the air, and the Bills couldn't. Josh Allen completed 53.7% of his passes and threw zero touchdowns. That's not good enough against an average to below average Browns defense. People who exclusively blame Brian Daboll are ignoring the many plays he calls where wide receivers ARE open and Allen can't or won't throw to them. It happens a lot. It happened a lot on Sunday. I'm not an Allen hater. I like him and want him to succeed. Just look at my avatar. However, to put all of the blame on Daboll and completely absolve Allen is a chickenshit copout, in my opinion. 1 1
Buffalo716 Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Logic said: If you think Cover 1 has any sort of vendetta against Allen or was pro-Tyrod and looks for ways to bash Allen, you're nuts. Allen wasn't "bad" on Sunday, you're right. But he also wasn't GOOD ENOUGH to beat the Browns. The Browns packed the box against the Bills, blitzed over 40% of the time, and dared the Bills to beat them through the air, and the Bills couldn't. Josh Allen completed 53.7% of his passes and threw zero touchdowns. That's not good enough against an average to below average Browns defense. People who exclusively blame Brian Daboll are ignoring the many plays he calls where wide receivers ARE open and Allen can't or won't throw to them. It happens a lot. It happened a lot on Sunday. I'm not an Allen hater. I like him and want him to succeed. Just look at my avatar. However, to put all of the blame on Daboll and completely absolve Allen is a chickenshit copout, in my opinion. Every single OC draws up plays where guys run open. Guys run open on every team in every game and QBs miss them The OC needs to create rhythm and an identity, something we don't have And Im not saying he had a vandetta against Josh but he DEFINITELY made lots excuses for TT while here.. Josh deserves tons of credit for where he has gone from last to this season Edited November 12, 2019 by Buffalo716
Luka Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Allen is the 4th most blitzed QB in the league, has the 6th most drops in the league. I'll wait for Cover 1 to come out with a feature about what Daboll is doing to mitigate that. That would take some actual film study to find instances where Daboll has set the offense up for success. I'd also love to see some stat or analytics or whatever they can come up with that supports these deep shots on crucial 3rd down and shorts. Or hell, even a reason why we continue to call deep shots down the right side of the field where Allen's accuracy is weakest, historically. 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, John from Riverside said: Not 20 yards...... Five yards? Yes Overthrown? Yes (except the one Foster failed to track) It really is not needed to prove your point to say something that is not true....Josh has had problems with his deep ball. Does it really matter if it was overthrown by 5, 10 or 20 yards? It wasn’t close and our QB is 0-16 on passes of 30 yards or more. It’s a problem!
Logic Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Every single OC draws up plays where guys run open. Guys run open on every team in every game and QBs miss them The OC needs to create rhythm and an identity, something we don't have And Im not saying he had a vandetta against Josh but he DEFINITELY made lots excuses for TT while here.. Josh deserves tons of credit for where he has gone from last to this season I agree that Josh deserves credit for the steps he has already taken as a quarterback. What I DON'T like seeing, though, is people putting on blinders and pretending like he's immune from criticism. He has progressed, yes, but he has a long way to go. He currently has the 30th ranked QB rating and 31st ranked completion percentage in the NFL, for instance. He has thrown just 10 TDs throw 9 games, despite playing some of the worst teams in the NFL. Furthermore, as far as "creating rhythm"...how is an offense supposed to have any rhythm when the quarterback fails to hit open receivers so often? How are we supposed to know what identity the offense WANTS to exhibit when the field general of that offense plays so inconsistently and, at times, poorly? I'm not saying it's JUST on Allen. The Bills offense is a combo platter of suck right now. Daboll deserves some blame. I absolutely agree with that. But to say that he deserves the lion's share of the blame or to try to completely absolve Allen of responsibility for how poor the offense is? That's rubbish. 3 minutes ago, Luka said: Allen is the 4th most blitzed QB in the league, has the 6th most drops in the league. I'll wait for Cover 1 to come out with a feature about what Daboll is doing to mitigate that. That would take some actual film study to find instances where Daboll has set the offense up for success. I'd also love to see some stat or analytics or whatever they can come up with that supports these deep shots on crucial 3rd down and shorts. Or hell, even a reason why we continue to call deep shots down the right side of the field where Allen's accuracy is weakest, historically. Did you not pay attention at all to the breakdowns and GIFs from the Browns game? Cover 1 already DID show that there were options on some -- not all, it's true, but more than a few -- of the plays in which Allen either took a sack or threw an incompletion. Yes, Daboll can do more to help Allen, but Allen needs to start to learn to help himself. He needs to take more steps toward being a big boy quarterback. It's not all on the OC. Daboll is an easy scapegoat right now, because it's easier to want to fire the OC than it is to admit that the 1st round, prize young QB isn't getting the job done. It's not an either/or proposition. BOTH need to improve. But this "it's all on Daboll!" stuff has gotta stop. It's ridiculous. 4
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: Not 20 yards...... Five yards? Yes Overthrown? Yes (except the one Foster failed to track) It really is not needed to prove your point to say something that is not true....Josh has had problems with his deep ball. C'mon John. "20 yards" is more for effect than anything else - he's basically indicating that the balls aren't catchable. Even you aren't that much of a homer to defend Josh A's deep game this season, right? He's been good in other areas, but him hitting zero deep balls has knock-on effects with regard to how teams defend us and the degree to which they're willing to gamble. 2 1
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