MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, oldmanfan said: I'll back mine up. Brown makes a ton of tackles but he makes them after the runner has made 5 yards if not more. And he's a liability in pass coverage. So he doesn't help us. Now what does Julian Stanford do and Corey Thompson do
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, MAJBobby said: Revise 2013 value in 2017 absolutely it does Dude, why are you dying on this hill? You lose so much credibility claiming he was worth a first. All you need to say is we would have gotten something, and you would be right. But you make this absurd claim about a first round pick and you end up sounding like such a cliche troll. 1
Nuncha Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Mr. Softie's day has come. I'll never forget how WR Steve Smith Sr made fun of Brown after playing against him.
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Dude, why are you dying on this hill? You lose so much credibility claiming he was worth a first. All you need to say is we would have gotten something, and you would be right. But you make this absurd claim about a first round pick and you end up sounding like such a cliche troll. Really.,.... Revis before Trade..... 19 INTs, 1 FF, 78 PD in 79 games Gilmore before allowed to walk for nothing: 14 INTs, 3 FF, 62 PD in 66 games (2 years younger) So tell me again how they are not comparable. The Bold would be you, we get it your hate for Gilmore cloud your inability to judge his play 1 1
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Dude, why are you dying on this hill? You lose so much credibility claiming he was worth a first. All you need to say is we would have gotten something, and you would be right. But you make this absurd claim about a first round pick and you end up sounding like such a cliche troll. I have to agree with MajBobby here. Knowing what we know now -- that NE snapped him up and paid a fortune for him -- it's pretty clear that the NFL saw Gilmore as elite even if TBD posters had their doubts. CB is the most valued position on the defense now, and a young one who has proven that he is good is definitely worth a first. 1
Rigotz Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Preston Brown would be great depth and he was a great locker room guy as well. He fits "the process" ... would love to see him brought in. Remember how bad we looked when Milano went down? Imagine if he goes down again or if Edmunds gets injured... we need quality depth.
The Frankish Reich Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said: Do it. Put him at the Mike and move Edmunds to the Elephant role, let him rush the passer where he has a chance to be ELITE. You want to shake things up and tilt the field a bit? Time to make a move, McBeane. Before everyone says “no!” (oops, too late), consider this: - I have no idea how Miami’s run game will look next week, but I do know that Denver can run the ball effectively, and that Dallas will run the ball very effectively. Going in to those games with the same defensive personnel is asking for trouble ... in a perfect world we wouldn’t have to sacrifice pass coverage to gain in run stuffing skill. 9 games in and in a fight for a playoff spot ain’t the time to look for perfection .... 1
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: I have to agree with MajBobby here. Knowing what we know now -- that NE snapped him up and paid a fortune for him -- it's pretty clear that the NFL saw Gilmore as elite even if TBD posters had their doubts. CB is the most valued position on the defense now, and a young one who has proven that he is good is definitely worth a first. Yep and even if they didnt work out a trade maybe they signed that long term deal. What would Bills defense be now with Gilmore and White on the outside??????
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: I have to agree with MajBobby here. Knowing what we know now -- that NE snapped him up and paid a fortune for him -- it's pretty clear that the NFL saw Gilmore as elite even if TBD posters had their doubts. CB is the most valued position on the defense now, and a young one who has proven that he is good is definitely worth a first. Hindsight is always 20/20. Besides, if the rest of the NFL thought he would be worth a first in a trade, he probably would have been selected to more pro-bowls. On top of that, I think its fair to say there was a general surprise around the league when BB handed out that contract to Gilmore. He had some good stats, as MajBobby points out, but he gave up a ton more in penalties and catches than Revis. That is why he did not make the pro bowl until his last year here. That said, I loved Gilmore and thought he got a bad rap. But, at that time, when it was decision time, he was not worth a first round pick on a tag and trade. Last thing, trades don't happen in isolation. Markets determine trade value. We have no idea what Gilmore would have been worth in the market. I guarantee the FO did at least some digging into what the market might yield. It is telling that they didn't even attempt a sign and trade. That tells me the market value would not have yielded a pick that would have justified the franchise tag price.
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Hindsight is always 20/20. Besides, if the rest of the NFL thought he would be worth a first in a trade, he probably would have been selected to more pro-bowls. On top of that, I think its fair to say there was a general surprise around the league when BB handed out that contract to Gilmore. He had some good stats, as MajBobby points out, but he gave up a ton more in penalties and catches than Revis. That is why he did not make the pro bowl until his last year here. That said, I loved Gilmore and thought he got a bad rap. But, at that time, when it was decision time, he was not worth a first round pick on a tag and trade. Last thing, trades don't happen in isolation. Markets determine trade value. We have no idea what Gilmore would have been worth in the market. I guarantee the FO did at least some digging into what the market might yield. It is telling that they didn't even attempt a sign and trade. That tells me the market value would not have yielded a pick that would have justified the franchise tag price. Pro Bowls are a joke. He was good for the Bills. Just ask Bill Belichick, who is at root a DB coach. I would bet a lot of money that he would have commanded a first.
oldmanfan Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Before everyone says “no!” (oops, too late), consider this: - I have no idea how Miami’s run game will look next week, but I do know that Denver can run the ball effectively, and that Dallas will run the ball very effectively. Going in to those games with the same defensive personnel is asking for trouble ... in a perfect world we wouldn’t have to sacrifice pass coverage to gain in run stuffing skill. 9 games in and in a fight for a playoff spot ain’t the time to look for perfection .... Moving your starting MLB to a new position this far into the season wouldn’t make sense
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Hindsight is always 20/20. Besides, if the rest of the NFL thought he would be worth a first in a trade, he probably would have been selected to more pro-bowls. On top of that, I think its fair to say there was a general surprise around the league when BB handed out that contract to Gilmore. He had some good stats, as MajBobby points out, but he gave up a ton more in penalties and catches than Revis. That is why he did not make the pro bowl until his last year here. That said, I loved Gilmore and thought he got a bad rap. But, at that time, when it was decision time, he was not worth a first round pick on a tag and trade. Last thing, trades don't happen in isolation. Markets determine trade value. We have no idea what Gilmore would have been worth in the market. I guarantee the FO did at least some digging into what the market might yield. It is telling that they didn't even attempt a sign and trade. That tells me the market value would not have yielded a pick that would have justified the franchise tag price. It tells me that there was a NEW coach (calling the shots) and a Lame Duck FO. While I am not going to KILL McD for this lack of trade (there are other things I can point to) but this is one Data Point out of many. Decision was made for the tear down, that is what was told to us the MINUTE McD was hired. and that was later confirmed when Whaley was shut out of the draft room and replaced right after. To NOT get value for Gilmore was a wrong move. Press CBs get penalties yes that HAPPENS We all lov Tre White too. 9 int, 3ff, 35PD in 41 games. What is Tre White's Value in a Trade? 2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Pro Bowls are a joke. He was good for the Bills. Just ask Bill Belichick, who is at root a DB coach. I would bet a lot of money that he would have commanded a first. But People will tell m Tre White would not be moved for less than a 1st and well is a very similar player to Gilmore, but I am the one that doesnt know value. Jalen Ramsey 9 INT, 3FF, 45 PD in 54 games - Less than Gilmore across the board gets 2 1sts and a 4th in a trade. Edited November 12, 2019 by MAJBobby 1
The Frankish Reich Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Moving your starting MLB to a new position this far into the season wouldn’t make sense Well, you gotta get better if you want to do anything other than backing into the playoffs and losing a first round game ... sometimes that means taking chances.
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, The Frankish Reich said: Well, you gotta get better if you want to do anything other than backing into the playoffs and losing a first round game ... sometimes that means taking chances. No the Drought is over we celebrate (however the Real one is what now 23 years?)
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: It tells me that there was a NEW coach (calling the shots) and a Lame Duck FO. While I am not going to KILL McD for this lack of trade (there are other things I can point to) but this is one Data Point out of many. Decision was made for the tear down, that is what was told to us the MINUTE McD was hired. and that was later confirmed when Whaley was shut out of the draft room and replaced right after. To NOT get value for Gilmore was a wrong move. Press CBs get penalties yes that HAPPENS We all lov Tre White too. 9 int, 3ff, 35PD in 41 games. What is Tre White's Value in a Trade? But People will tell m Tre White would not be moved for less than a 1st and well is a very similar player to Gilmore, but I am the one that doesnt know value. Jalen Ramsey 9 INT, 3FF, 45 PD in 54 games - Less than Gilmore across the board gets 2 1sts and a 4th in a trade. Players on a tag and trade do not have the same value as players traded with a year or two left on their contracts, especially their rookie deals. You are talking about trades that rarely happen as if it was a given that not only would the Bills be successful, but they would also get a prized first round pick. There rare cases where it works, but Gilmore, with his accomplishments and failures, is not one of those cases.
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Players on a tag and trade do not have the same value as players traded with a year or two left on their contracts, especially their rookie deals. You are talking about trades that rarely happen as if it was a given that not only would the Bills be successful, but they would also get a prized first round pick. There rare cases where it works, but Gilmore, with his accomplishments and failures, is not one of those cases. SO ABSOLUTELY NO Data to back up your opinion vs actual Data. Yeah I think I know I am right that he would have gotten at least a first. Hell Mikah Fitzpatrick gets a first.
dave mcbride Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said: Players on a tag and trade do not have the same value as players traded with a year or two left on their contracts, especially their rookie deals. You are talking about trades that rarely happen as if it was a given that not only would the Bills be successful, but they would also get a prized first round pick. There rare cases where it works, but Gilmore, with his accomplishments and failures, is not one of those cases. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001027521/article/seahawks-agree-to-trade-frank-clark-to-chiefs-for-draft-picks Clark had been tagged by the Seahawks.
JoshAllenHasBigHands Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, MAJBobby said: SO ABSOLUTELY NO Data to back up your opinion vs actual Data. Yeah I think I know I am right that he would have gotten at least a first. Hell Mikah Fitzpatrick gets a first. Is that a serious comment? You have posted 16,000 times on this board. You obviously love the Bills and love football. There is no way you can spend that much time thinking about football and think that Fitzpatrick comment makes any sense. I'll make it simple: The overwhelming value of a trade is dictated by how many years the receiving team will have that player and at what cost. So, the Steelers received Minkah for 3 more years on a low-cost rookie deal. In the Gilmore Scenario, the receiving team gets Gilmore for 1 year at the most expensive price tag in the NFL. Do you see why the former is worth more (higher pick) than the latter? I refuse to believe you do not understand this concept, but that Fitzpatrick comment tells me you don't.
MAJBobby Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 Just now, dave mcbride said: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001027521/article/seahawks-agree-to-trade-frank-clark-to-chiefs-for-draft-picks Clark had been tagged by the Seahawks. So Wasnt Dee Ford Clowney
Phil The Thrill Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: On paper it sounds like this would be a great move for the Bills. But there was a reason Brown played some much Special Teams when the Bills played Cincy this year. He’s probably not very good.
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