C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 53 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Bill Belicheck**** disagrees with you. When he was looking internally for an OC, he passed over Daboll for Josh McDaniels. Daboll left the following season to take a position as QB coach with the Jets. He coached Pennington at age 31 and and Favre age 39 there before moving on into OC positions. Oh I agree McDaniels is better. Just saying Daboll would be fine with Brady. I think another way to look at this is that there are coaches/ qbs who elevate the talent level around them. I don’t think Daboll is This type of coach and Allen isn’t that type of qb yet.
Phil The Thrill Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 5 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: As I pointed earlier in the thread, Jalen Hurts is a much better player without Daboll. and you don’t understand how the coaching world works by now? Daboll was friends with Polian’s son. If you make the right connections once you get in, you can keep finding work. It’s why terrible coaches keep getting rehired. Most QB’s are better as Juniors or Seniors than they are as freshmen. I don’t think you can fault the OC....well, maybe you can if you have an agenda. Yes the NFL is an old boys network full of nepotism. That’s for sure. But it’s also a production business and if you don’t have value, you don’t often get a chance to be a coordinator.
berg1029 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 59 minutes ago, JR in Pittsburgh said: Overall, I like his offensive concept— spread it out, short passes, pass to set up the run. It’s probably the most exciting offense Conceptually we have had in 20 years. i think we can all point to complaints with the specific play-calling on game day, but that’s also where the head coach can step in and basically tell him at a high level “we need to start running the ball more Here, etc.” Good post. His offensive scheme seems pretty solid and he deserves credit for that. I think the plays that he employs are suited well to our arsenal (i.e. the jet sweeps with guys like McKenzie, the designed runs for Allen, and the development of the short passing game in response to his issues with longer touch passes). His issues, much like McDermott, stem from in game decision making and adjustment. 1
Phil The Thrill Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: Oh I agree McDaniels is better. Just saying Daboll would be fine with Brady. I think another way to look at this is that there are coaches/ qbs who elevate the talent level around them. I don’t think Daboll is This type of coach and Allen isn’t that type of qb yet. Who is the type of OC than can elevate Allen? You can argue that Allen NEVER has been anything better than average at any level.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, Phil The Thrill said: Most QB’s are better as Juniors or Seniors than they are as freshmen. I don’t think you can fault the OC....well, maybe you can if you have an agenda. Yes the NFL is an old boys network full of nepotism. That’s for sure. But it’s also a production business and if you don’t have value, you don’t often get a chance to be a coordinator. Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman. There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate. like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb. But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs. If is a production business and his sucks. I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C. but it Is what it is.
Z-Mann Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 I do feel like it's important to note that JA has produced more turnover opportunities (18 total, 11 fumbles 7 INT's) than touchdowns (16 total, 10 passing 6 running). I don't feel like the turnover problems falls as much on the coach as it does on JA...he should have moved past this by now, and he hasn't.
Gugny Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman. There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate. like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb. But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs. If is a production business and his sucks. I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C. but it Is what it is. What it is, is fixable. This is on McDermott if he allows it to continue.
Virgil Posted November 11, 2019 Author Posted November 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: This is a great way to cherry pick stats to spin a narrative that Daboll is the problem and not his QB - who by the way is ranked toward the bottom of league for starting QB’s. You are looking at numbers that are out of context to show that Daboll sucks as an OC. While the overall rankings from Daboll are below average, much of this has to do with a passing game which has struggled. But guess what else is below average? The QB’s running that passing game. He has almost always inherited a bad football team with a less than average QB. The QB’s that he’s had to work with: Bruce Gradowski Derek Anderson Matt Moore Kyle Orton Josh Allen And look - if we’re talking numbers here, then Josh Allen is a below average in 2019. Do you honestly think that another OC would get anything more out of teams led by these QB’s? So if you have a QB that hasn’t shown the ability to be average, how can your passing offense be any better than....below average? When you look at his team’s rushing performance, I see offenses that usually finishes within the top 10 rushing offense. That tells me that Daboll isn’t completely ineffective as a playcaller. He just has never had anything better than average at QB. Currently he has below average. This post by @Virgil is again, more scapegoating on Daboll, without holding any accountability on the QB. How is it cherry picking when I’m showing his overall ranking as an OC? Cherry picking would be situational. This is his actual resume. Second of all, do your homework someone before you accuse me of scapegoating. I’ve been very critical of Allen in the past and even recently. I think Daboll is the bigger issue of the two. But nice post 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 18 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: But that lack of awareness is al Daboll’s fault. It can’t possibly be on the QB Allen definitely is a big part of the problem too. We are forcing a square peg into a round hole. It’s like when we forced Tyrod into a WCO. mcdermott is an awesome defensive coach who is clueless offensively.
Virgil Posted November 11, 2019 Author Posted November 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said: Who is the type of OC than can elevate Allen? You can argue that Allen NEVER has been anything better than average at any level. And you could equally argue Daboll hasn’t proven anything at any level
nedboy7 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 Maybe it’s possible that Allen is the problem and not daboll. But...if you have to change a part it’s the OC. JA needs another shot with a different coach.
dave mcbride Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: 1) why are only bad teams hiring him then to be an O.C.? 2) those qbs aren’t great but they had better seasons with other OCs than Daboll. Anderson was a pro bowler one year. 3) I do think we overrate coaching. I don’t doubt Daboll would be better with a more established vet qb. But that’s not what we have here. I never liked the hiring because it felt like such an uninspiring pick. I wanted Kliff Kingsburg. No, they all suck. Seriously, look it up. They only one you can claim actually regressed was Cassell, but Cassell genuinely stinks and somehow got lucky before then. I refuse to countenance the idea that he's ever been any good. This is the classic Daboll season: start out with a truly terrible QB (Chad Henne), and then bench him for a career backup (Matt Moore) who then goes on to have a decent season. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2011.htm Edited November 11, 2019 by dave mcbride
Chris66 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Hurts was the conference player of the year as a freshman. There were talks of Hurts was holding him back while he was at Alabama. Hurts is a Heisman candidate. like I said earlier, I think Daboll would be fine with an established franchise qb. But it’s absolutely insane that with his resume, he keeps getting O.C. jobs. If is a production business and his sucks. I would have rather had a young upcoming coach from a successful nfl team work with Allen than a retread bad O.C. but it Is what it is. You make it sound like the qb only has 1 option on any given play. The qb has multiple option the receivers have multiple options. Its not like Dabol is calling a 50 yard bomb on 3rd and 3. Thats up to the qb. Unfortunately for you guys the qb is failing miserably.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: No, they all suck. Seriously, look it up. They only one you can claim actually regressed was Cassell, but Cassell genuinely stinks and somehow got lucky before then. I refuse to countenance the idea that he's ever been any good. This is the classic Daboll season: start out with a truly terrible QB (Chad Henne), and then bench him for a career backup (Matt Moore) who then goes on to have a decent season. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/mia/2011.htm So Dave, why aren’t good teams hiring him? He has been with 2 of the best coaches in history and yet no team with a good qb has hired him.
Scott7975 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 6 minutes ago, Chris66 said: You make it sound like the qb only has 1 option on any given play. The qb has multiple option the receivers have multiple options. Its not like Dabol is calling a 50 yard bomb on 3rd and 3. Thats up to the qb. Unfortunately for you guys the qb is failing miserably. You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you? There were no short routes. Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football. 1
dave mcbride Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 Just now, C.Biscuit97 said: So Dave, why aren’t good teams hiring him? He has been with 2 of the best coaches in history and yet no team with a good qb has hired him. The Pats keep hiring him back, and the best college coach in history hired him. I also think that in the coaching fraternity, there is a TON of respect for McDermott. It could be the case that he thinks he'll make his name by developing a QB. Allen has incredible talent, and maybe he sees that. The thing is, he keeps getting hired. The pay for these coordinators is pretty much the same for most teams across the league. Look, I'll never forget the pile-on that occurred with Dan Henning, a bona fide good NFL mind. He failed in Buffalo because Todd Collins was his QB. He goes to the Jets, and Vinnie Testaverde has the season of his life. Finally, Daboll, for all of his flaws, is basically 1000 times better than Rick Dennison, who I thought was awful. 2
Chris66 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you? There were no short routes. Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football. I didnt . what was the coverage. In the EP system there is always an outlet provided the receiver and qb recognize the coverage.
GG Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said: You didn't see that 3rd and 4 did you? There were no short routes. Allen's option was deep, intermediate, run with the football. Which 3rd & 4 are you referring to?
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: The Pats keep hiring him back, and the best college coach in history hired him. I also think that in the coaching fraternity, there is a TON of respect for McDermott. It could be the case that he thinks he'll make his name by developing a QB. Allen has incredible talent, and maybe he sees that. The thing is, he keeps getting hired. The pay for these coordinators is pretty much the same for most teams across the league. Look, I'll never forget the pile-on that occurred with Dan Henning, a bona fide good NFL mind. He failed in Buffalo because Todd Collins was his QB. He goes to the Jets, and Vinnie Testaverde has the season of his life. Finally, Daboll, for all of his flaws, is basically 1000 times better than Rick Dennison, who I thought was awful. The Pats bring him back as a TEs coach. And you might want to check their resumes again. Dennison has a much better one. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/DennRi0.htm. McDermott deserves a huge amount of blame for his season here because he traded away our best wr a week before the season; forced Tyrod to become a WCO passer (so dumb); and forced Peterman on him. and I do hate we blame coaches for player’s struggles all the time. But if you have years of evidence that a guy is a bottom 5 OC in the nfl, when do you admit maybe he just isn’t good enough?
Chris66 Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 Dabol is running the baby stroller version of the EP system. Either Josh isnt using it correctly or Dabol doesnt trust him yet. Not sure which is which. I never see pre snap motion or Allen audible out of the play
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