One important question I have on the last drive

[london_bills]

59 minutes ago, Billever76 said:

Poor example to pinpoint josh failure on this play..there is literally 3 browns defenders crashing through our turnstile line there lmao

He's had quite alot of time to throw generally. Still need to make good spilt second decisions to be an elite QB. We are not seeing those good decisions. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

We tried the play before in the game and we had it on the final drive as well to beat Cover 0
 

 

That pass didn't get to Singletary because it was deflected, correct?  Any adjustment Josh should have made?  Was the throw late?

 

Just now, Reed83HOF said:

 

The terrible stats 3 for 10 with 2 sacks and 1 TD. The one play it doesn't look like we tried in this game to beat the Cover 0 was the slot WR in motion

 

We agree the Beas is not the right guy for that though, right?

[HappyDays]

33 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

There are 2 plays that are acceptable to beat Cover 0; Quick routes or a Go Route. John Brown said he got tapped into the Go route - this is an automatic read in our offense based on the defense being played. On the go Route there are 2 options, if the defender beats the DB, you go over the top, if it is tight coverage, it is a back shoulder throw (which Allen did). 

 

This. There is nothing else to argue. It was not a bad play call or a bad read by Allen. We got exactly the look we wanted against cover 0 and Allen threw a back shoulder pass. The problem is Brown made a mistake and kept running, thinking the ball would go over the top. That's it. We don't need to have a 6 page discussion. Brown came out right after the game and explained what happened. It's not complicated.

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

 

Maybe I've got it wrong, but I thought he was also suggesting that he had no confidence in Brown as a receiver of jump balls and back shoulder throws (and just not because  he thinksJosh is having problems connecting). If so, with this I would disagree. With respect to the particular play call I do agree it was probably situationally inappropriate. I think some other posters have commented on the difficulties Josh is experiencing with decision making/ pre snap reads.

John Brown is 5'11". He is a very good receiver. He has great speed. He does not have great size. If you were an offensive coordinator, are you telling me that you would choose John Brown as the guy you wanted to target on these back shoulder throws and 50/50 type balls that you throw up? Not saying they can't make it work sometimes, I just don't think that is the best use of his skillset. But hey- I am not an expert on such things. I will readily admit to that.

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This. There is nothing else to argue. It was not a bad play call or a bad read by Allen. We got exactly the look we wanted against cover 0 and Allen threw a back shoulder pass. The problem is Brown made a mistake and kept running, thinking the ball would go over the top. That's it. We don't need to have a 6 page discussion. Brown came out right after the game and explained what happened. It's not complicated.

I disagree (as do many others, apparently). There is plenty to discuss here. I admire John Brown for taking the heat, but are we really going to pretend that this was a gimme if only he had come back for that throw? That is NOT a high percentage play, and we needed one there that got us at least 5 - 10 more yards.

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Cool.

 

How's Allen's deep passing been for the rest of the season?

 

Not sure how that has anything to do with it.  It wasn't a deep ball.  Allen has 30 20+ yard completions on the year so far.   Just in this game alone Allen hit passes of 16, 16, 16 ,17, 20, 21, 21, 26, and 26 yards. A couple of those were with YAC but most of them were actual air. That ball was less than 20 yards.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Scott7975

[starrymessenger]

18 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

John Brown is 5'11". He is a very good receiver. He has great speed. He does not have great size. If you were an offensive coordinator, are you telling me that you would choose John Brown as the guy you wanted to target on these back shoulder throws and 50/50 type balls that you throw up? Not saying they can't make it work sometimes, I just don't think that is the best use of his skillset. But hey- I am not an expert on such things. I will readily admit to that.

 

Because he has great speed, the defending CB will often be trailing even if in relatively tight coverage when Brown is running certain sideline routes. The DB will typically have his back to the QB in press man coverage. John Brown is a polished professional receiver who, amongst other things, tracks the ball very well. When completing the reception he can modify his timing to effectively box out while often, though not always,  "jumping" over the defender. I've seen him do it over the years with different QBs. It's part of his skillset that derives from his threat as a speedster and the other receiver attributes that he has. I don't think I would hesitate to target him on back shoulder throws. I didn't mean to suggest that as a stationary target he was ever going to out high point Alshon Jeffery or Mike Evans. I agree he's not that guy. 

[Mark Vader]

5 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

On this last attempt before the field goal- Beasley is clearly wide open at the stick and could easily get 10+ yards before getting out of bounds. This gives us time for a shot or two at the end zone (if they have faith to try that) and a much easier kick for the tie.

 

I would really like to know whether this is a case of

  a) Josh not seeing the open man

  b) The coaching staff having already pre-determined that the ball was going to be forced to Brown down the sideline

  c) An immature QB that knew Beas would be open there but decided to go for the glory anyway

  d) Other suggestions?

 

This play continues to bother me, because this is demonstrating a terrible pattern of behavior, either by our QB or our coaching staff (maybe both?)

 

 

The real important question is.....Why did we not call timeout after Singletary could not get out of bounds?

 

We could have saved more time on the clock and drawn up another play call, instead of letting the clock run down.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

That is NOT a high percentage play, and we needed one there that got us at least 5 - 10 more yards.

 

I don't know what the percentage is but the back shoulder throw is one of Allen's best. And I don't know if 5 yards would have won us the game. Hauschka already missed a 34 yarder and the last kick wasn't really close. If Brown stops his route and turns back for the ball, we would have had the ball inside the 20 and he would have likely stepped out of bounds. That gives us maybe 3 plays to shoot for the endzone, or at the very least a makeable kick. Good play call, good pre-snap read. Bad execution from Brown.

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That pass didn't get to Singletary because it was deflected, correct?  Any adjustment Josh should have made?  Was the throw late?

 

 

We agree the Beas is not the right guy for that though, right?

Regarding your first point:

 

The deflection was obviously the issue. Singletary went towards the Dawkins on the line to make it look like he was going to block and he did not get the blitzer to hesitate nor did he give him a chip, had he gotten a hesitation or the chip, Josh would have been as rushed with the throw. All that being said, had Allen put a little air under his toss, Singletary would have a very sizable gain.  Again, he needs to develop the touch pass - they play was there to be made...

 

Your second point:

 

I would want some more size there, but they have to have some degree of speed. I can't say no to Beasley or even yes because I don't think I have ever watched him try to chip someone. I wouldn't do it with Roscoe Parrish; Singletary could do it, Knox, etc could. I assume Pedleman does it for the Cheats though, I never really watched him that close though tbh. 

 

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know what the percentage is but the back shoulder throw is one of Allen's best. And I don't know if 5 yards would have won us the game. Hauschka already missed a 34 yarder and the last kick wasn't really close. If Brown stops his route and turns back for the ball, we would have had the ball inside the 20 and he would have likely stepped out of bounds. That gives us maybe 3 plays to shoot for the endzone, or at the very least a makeable kick. Good play call, good pre-snap read. Bad execution from Brown.

I'm wondering if they went to Brown this time because the previous play was the deflected pass to Singletary?

 

Not to beat this dead horse anymore, but had we called a TO and stopped the clock on Singletary's play we would have had 30+ more seconds.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

So isn’t the real problem here that a deep fade is the hot route on a critical 3rd and 4 down by three on the edge of the kickers field goal range? 

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So isn’t the real problem here that a deep fade is the hot route on a critical 3rd and 4 down by three on the edge of the kickers field goal range? 

 

 

 

That's what I'm saying man

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

12 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

That's what I'm saying man

 

Then you’re right!  The reinvention of the offense last year mid-season gave some hope.

 

But there is this growing nagging feeling that they still don’t have any clue how to capitalize on Josh’s insanely strong arm and I don’t mean the stupid deep ball which he is clearly overthrowing because he’s afriad of INTs....  (you could see it at the podium in his post game remarks) 

 

i just mean attacking the 53 1/3 by 10 yard box in front of them. 

 

 

 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

7 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 

Then you’re right!  The reinvention of the offense last year mid-season gave some hope.

 

But there is this growing nagging feeling that they still don’t have any clue how to capitalize on Josh’s insanely strong arm and I don’t mean the stupid deep ball which he is clearly overthrowing because he’s afriad of INTs....  (you could see it at the podium in his post game remarks) 

 

i just mean attacking the 53 1/3 by 10 yard box in front of them. 

 

 

 

I have no idea what that means...

 

I'm sort of on team we need to execute. We have dropped may too many balls this year, and they are absolute drive killers. I honestly think that if we just catch the easy ones, this team is fine.  I think the deep ball is way over rated, especially since he hits 20 yard passes like they are three yard outs. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by JoshAllenHasBigHands

[HappyDays]

 

Case closed?

[Reed83HOF]

37 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

So isn’t the real problem here that a deep fade is the hot route on a critical 3rd and 4 down by three on the edge of the kickers field goal range? 

 

 

same play we scored the TD against the Jets with....

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Case closed?

I thought so, am supposing it isn't though. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

13 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I have no idea what that means...

 

I'm sort of on team we need to execute. We have dropped may too many balls this year, and they are absolute drive killers. I honestly think that if we just catch the easy ones, this team is fine.  I think the deep ball is way over rated, especially since he hits 20 yard passes like they are three yard outs. 

 

That is exactly the point. Josh can rapidly deliver the ball sideline to sideline 10-20 yards in front of him. 

 

It just doesn’t seem like it’s happening. The Pats tend to do this very well but I’m not seeing Daboll doing this and don’t know why...

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

Allen has a ton of growing up to do.  (a ton!) Brady hits Beasley every time, and he knows it before the ball is snapped.

[34-78-83]

5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

same play we scored the TD against the Jets with....

I thought so, am supposing it isn't though. 

It seems to be as we discussed yesterday for the most part.

It's fun to be able to figure things like this out.

Fan X's and O's Geek here

[K-9]

7 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

On this last attempt before the field goal- Beasley is clearly wide open at the stick and could easily get 10+ yards before getting out of bounds. This gives us time for a shot or two at the end zone (if they have faith to try that) and a much easier kick for the tie.

 

I would really like to know whether this is a case of

  a) Josh not seeing the open man

  b) The coaching staff having already pre-determined that the ball was going to be forced to Brown down the sideline

  c) An immature QB that knew Beas would be open there but decided to go for the glory anyway

  d) Other suggestions?

 

This play continues to bother me, because this is demonstrating a terrible pattern of behavior, either by our QB or our coaching staff (maybe both?)

 

 

Simply can’t tell without seeing the play from pre snap to finish.
 

But if this is the play where Josh signaled a hot read to Brown that Brown missed, then I’m not putting it all on Allen. The hot called for a back shoulder throw to Brown. 

[Reed83HOF]

Just now, K-9 said:

Simply can’t tell without seeing the play from pre snap to finish.
 

But if this is the play where Josh signaled a hot read to Brown that Brown missed, then I’m not putting it all on Allen. The hot called for a back shoulder throw to Brown. 

It's the same play...in every thread...with the same comments...and the same answer...