Box Score vs. All-22

[mjt328]

Over the last several years, I've noticed a growing divide between football fans.

1.  Those who rely on box scores, stats and fantasy football to determine how a player is performing.

2.  Those who look to All-22 reviews and film studies to judge player performance.

 

You can see this dynamic playing out on this very message board.  Post game, we all see the armchair GMs totally ripping into guys like Josh Allen, Ed Oliver, Star Lotulelei and Tremaine Edmunds for their "lack of production" and supposedly poor play.  But then the game film reports start coming out around Tuesday morning, and we learn these same players are actually doing a pretty good job.

 

As someone who is over 40 years old, I certainly understand the "old school" way of following the sport.  But at the same time, I feel like the traditional stat-hounds are going by the wayside.  Even sites like Pro Football Focus and their flawed scores are quickly becoming outdated.  There are too many resources available to regular fans for anyone to just say - "Player A sucks" - without providing some real tangible evidence.

 

I'm not looking to advertise for any particular websites, but I thought some of us could share our favorite sources for All-22 reviews.  Personally, I very much enjoy Cover 1.  They post quick little nuggets on Twitter, along with more extensive breakdowns on YouTube.  I also think Joe Buscaglia does a great job, although I admittedly haven't followed his articles as much since he went to the Athletic.

 

 

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Over the last several years, I've noticed a growing divide between football fans.

1.  Those who rely on box scores, stats and fantasy football to determine how a player is performing.

2.  Those who look to All-22 reviews and film studies to judge player performance.

 

You can see this dynamic playing out on this very message board.  Post game, we all see the armchair GMs totally ripping into guys like Josh Allen, Ed Oliver, Star Lotulelei and Tremaine Edmunds for their "lack of production" and supposedly poor play.  But then the game film reports start coming out around Tuesday morning, and we learn these same players are actually doing a pretty good job.

 

As someone who is over 40 years old, I certainly understand the "old school" way of following the sport.  But at the same time, I feel like the traditional stat-hounds are going by the wayside.  Even sites like Pro Football Focus and their flawed scores are quickly becoming outdated.  There are too many resources available to regular fans for anyone to just say - "Player A sucks" - without providing some real tangible evidence.

 

I'm not looking to advertise for any particular websites, but I thought some of us could share our favorite sources for All-22 reviews.  Personally, I very much enjoy Cover 1.  They post quick little nuggets on Twitter, along with more extensive breakdowns on YouTube.  I also think Joe Buscaglia does a great job, although I admittedly haven't followed his articles as much since he went to the Athletic.

 

 

The difference between the box score and the film is the box score doesn’t rely on individual interpretation, which makes it more accessible. Two fans can watch an All-22 play and believe two different LB missed their assignments.

[Chill]

Let go of the stuff you can’t control...

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Over the last several years, I've noticed a growing divide between football fans.

1.  Those who rely on box scores, stats and fantasy football to determine how a player is performing.

2.  Those who look to All-22 reviews and film studies to judge player performance.

 

You can see this dynamic playing out on this very message board.  Post game, we all see the armchair GMs totally ripping into guys like Josh Allen, Ed Oliver, Star Lotulelei and Tremaine Edmunds for their "lack of production" and supposedly poor play.  But then the game film reports start coming out around Tuesday morning, and we learn these same players are actually doing a pretty good job.

 

As someone who is over 40 years old, I certainly understand the "old school" way of following the sport.  But at the same time, I feel like the traditional stat-hounds are going by the wayside.  Even sites like Pro Football Focus and their flawed scores are quickly becoming outdated.  There are too many resources available to regular fans for anyone to just say - "Player A sucks" - without providing some real tangible evidence.

 

I'm not looking to advertise for any particular websites, but I thought some of us could share our favorite sources for All-22 reviews.  Personally, I very much enjoy Cover 1.  They post quick little nuggets on Twitter, along with more extensive breakdowns on YouTube.  I also think Joe Buscaglia does a great job, although I admittedly haven't followed his articles as much since he went to the Athletic.

 

 

 

1. I would separate Fantasy football, and stats. There are some that rely on probability in forecasting success, which is science, then their are the others who judge success on gaudy numbers. I think there is a difference between these two in terms of how they view the game. 

 

2. Edmunds has gotten, and deserves plenty of flack from the All-22 crowd.  In fact, I think people would be higher on him if not for the access to all-22 for your average fan. JA deserves both criticism for the way he has played and praise for improving his game. Both analytics and all-22 should reveal both. 

 

I actually don't see a huge gap between you analytics guys and your all-22 guys. Maybe because a lot of them dabble in both because problem solving/understanding is enjoyable to them. 

 

I think the big disconnect is between the people who operate via "feeling" vs. the more analytics base. They just communicate differently. I think when the analytics guys say "this is below average play, QB's/MLB's/DT's etc. who have x production generally result in y", fans who operate with their guts hear, " Player ABC is bad, and won't be good" and elicits that response. Inversely, when fans who operate based on their gut say "we won, lets keep on progressing", analytics based fans hear "good enough"...then everybody spends all week yelling at each other on the internet, and that is why message boards are fun. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

1. I would separate Fantasy football, and stats. There are some that rely on probability in forecasting success, which is science, then their are the others who judge success on gaudy numbers. I think there is a difference between these two in terms of how they view the game. 

 

2. Edmunds has gotten, and deserves plenty of flack from the All-22 crowd.  In fact, I think people would be higher on him if not for the access to all-22 for your average fan. JA deserves both criticism for the way he has played and praise for improving his game. Both analytics and all-22 should reveal both. 

 

I actually don't see a huge gap between you analytics guys and your all-22 guys. Maybe because a lot of them dabble in both because problem solving/understanding is enjoyable to them. 

 

I think the big disconnect is between the people who operate via "feeling" vs. the more analytics base. They just communicate differently. I think when the analytics guys say "this is below average play, QB's/MLB's/DT's etc. who have x production generally result in y", fans who operate with their guts hear, " Player ABC is bad, and won't be good" and elicits that response. Inversely, when fans who operate based on their gut say "we won, lets keep on progressing", analytics based fans hear "good enough"...then everybody spends all week yelling at each other on the internet, and that is why message boards are fun. 

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

[Mango]

23 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

The difference between the box score and the film is the box score doesn’t rely on individual interpretation, which makes it more accessible. Two fans can watch an All-22 play and believe two different LB missed their assignments.

 

3 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

 

Feels like these two are related....

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

Edmunds looked pretty good earlier in the year, but since the pats game has missed multiple assignments in the run game and regressed under misdirection run plays.

Edited November 6, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

 

I haven't seen anything regularly on this board saying Edmunds won't be good because of his TLF, Sacks, INT, etc.  You do have people arguing over what responsibility each gap was on a given play. But those are two people arguing over film without access to the actual play call. They are both the same type of fan. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

I haven't seen anything regularly on this board saying Edmunds won't be good because of his TLF, Sacks, INT, etc.  You do have people arguing over what responsibility each gap was on a given play. But those are two people arguing over film without access to the actual play call. They are both the same type of fan. 

 

I know ScottLaw and GG have argued vehemently that Edmunds isn't built for MLB because he isn't racking up tackles and that is what the MLB is supposed to do, or some dribble like that. It has been super obnoxious. 

9 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Edmunds looked pretty good earlier in the year, but since the pats game has missed multiple assignments in the run game and regressed under misdirection run plays.

 

Meh, I think you are wrong, but that argument is being had in enough other threads.  No need to do it here. 

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I know ScottLaw and GG have argued vehemently that Edmunds isn't built for MLB because he isn't racking up tackles and that is what the MLB is supposed to do, or some dribble like that. It has been super obnoxious. 

That’s part of the picture sure.

[Bookie Man]

They left at least 10 points on the board easily. 

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

 

I am an all22 guy. I do not think Edmunds is playing very well. He is playing well in the pass game and struggling royally in the run game. 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That’s part of the picture sure.

 

I think we found ourselves a stat guy.  Stat guys never call themselves stat guys, but we all know...

[warrior9]

I think the problem with evaluating from an All-22 perspective is..... We don't and will never know play calls and supposed assignments. We can guess, sure.

 

 

Take QB and LB for example.

But we will never know Josh's first read to where he delivers the ball. "Look Josh missed this wide open reciever!" But we will never know if the play was "Ok, let's go read one, read two, nothing there, we're moving out of the pocket now" 

 

By the same account. "Tremaine missed the A gap here and they ran right at him." We will never know if Star/Oliver/Phillips actually had a stunt and were A gap responsible on that play. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by warrior9

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

Over the last several years, I've noticed a growing divide between football fans.

1.  Those who rely on box scores, stats and fantasy football to determine how a player is performing.

2.  Those who look to All-22 reviews and film studies to judge player performance.

 

You can see this dynamic playing out on this very message board.  Post game, we all see the armchair GMs totally ripping into guys like Josh Allen, Ed Oliver, Star Lotulelei and Tremaine Edmunds for their "lack of production" and supposedly poor play.  But then the game film reports start coming out around Tuesday morning, and we learn these same players are actually doing a pretty good job.

 

As someone who is over 40 years old, I certainly understand the "old school" way of following the sport.  But at the same time, I feel like the traditional stat-hounds are going by the wayside.  Even sites like Pro Football Focus and their flawed scores are quickly becoming outdated.  There are too many resources available to regular fans for anyone to just say - "Player A sucks" - without providing some real tangible evidence.

 

I'm not looking to advertise for any particular websites, but I thought some of us could share our favorite sources for All-22 reviews.  Personally, I very much enjoy Cover 1.  They post quick little nuggets on Twitter, along with more extensive breakdowns on YouTube.  I also think Joe Buscaglia does a great job, although I admittedly haven't followed his articles as much since he went to the Athletic.

 

I think you may be conflating two different things in 1.

 

Fantasy football has changed how fans view the game, because it's all about the specific measures that lead to fantasy football success.  This leads to denigrating players who may (per coaches) be doing what they are asked to do, but fail to put up statistics such as tackles and sacks for their fantasy "owners".  I think it is very telling that when my kid was looking at colleges one of the Deans at a visit boasted about winning her fantasy league although she "doesn't know a thing about football".

 

To other fans, football is still a team game, and both the box scores and coach's film are used to the same end: to tell how the team is playing.  I look at box scores, but what I look at first are team parameters - first downs, 3rd down conversions, TOP, turnovers.  I don't try too much to judge individual player performance on the lines, because without knowing what the assignments were, it's pretty tough.  That's why OLmen like Eric Wood when interviewed show a bit of "salt" about things like PFF rankings.  They can be way off!  Eric pointed out there was a season where he was rated something like the 3rd worst run blocking guard, but given a contract that off season: "I can assure you, that wasn't our coaches evaluation".  Likewise when a pass is off target did the WR run the same route the QB expected?  I can't tell.

 

There are overall patterns I will make conclusions about - like last year, when we were trying to do a lot of cut blocking that resulted in defenders hurdling our prone linemen enroute to another TFL on a run play, I concluded all that cut blocking was a Bad Idea.  When I see two OLmen including the center pulling on a "fake" run play resulting in a hurried, inaccurate throw and a QB hit, I think that's a Bad Idea too.  It's great when the players are ultra-responsible and say "it's on us to execute", but coaches have to put players in position to succeed by asking them to do things they can execute!!!

 

OK, enough pontificating. 

I like Yards Per Pass and Cover 1.  I subscribe to the Athletic and like it - not so thrilled on Joe B's 'grades' but other good stuff there.  I subscribe to TBN as well and find some good stuff there.  I like the "Locked on Bills" podcast.   I also like the Bills products "Lo Down" with Zo Alexander and "Chopping Wood" with Eric Wood. 

I very seldom listen to national media such as NFLN or ESPN.  I find they're all about the soundbite and seldom have substance other than fluffing or dumping on the latest trend. 

On this board, I give Mega-Props to YOLO who is The Man for keeping us up to date with the latest breaking news.  I pay attention to posts by Buffalo716 and GunnerBill and I know I'm missing some guys that aren't coming to mind right now.   I'm interested in the week-by-week QB rating in the homebrew system BuffaloHokie has cooked up - it is straighforward and practical.   I love reading Virgil's and Shaw's article and also Kelly's fan pieces in TBN  for the language and fan reaction color.

 

33 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

I think we found ourselves a stat guy.  Stat guys never call themselves stat guys, but we all know...

 

I'm a stats geek and I call myself a stats geek.

 

I just differ from some stats geeks in what I consider important and why

 

1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

The difference between the box score and the film is the box score doesn’t rely on individual interpretation, which makes it more accessible. Two fans can watch an All-22 play and believe two different LB missed their assignments.

 

Yeah, but the box score doesn't address that latter sentence at all.  You need the kind of special sauce metrics PFF and FO and etc cook up for that.

[MJS]

Hmm, fantasy football actually helps you understand a lot. The serious fantasy football players are usually the first ones to know when an offensive player is having a breakout year. They don't just follow the points, they also do research to see if a big game was only a flash in the pan or a consistent trend. They look at stuff like snap counts, targets / touches, and especially defensive / offensive matchups. They don't care about hype or name recognition, they just follow the consistently productive players no matter who they are. They pay attention to injury status and how that might affect another player's performance. They pay attention to red zone touches / targets / production. It is much more in-depth than looking at the box score.

 

When I started getting into fantasy football it vastly increased my knowledge of other teams, other players, and informs my opinions on who I think the Bills should target in free agency. It gave me a reason to watch more than just Bills football and gave me a bigger picture understanding of the league. And it gives people an avenue to look at every single team in the league completely objectively.

[BringBackOrton]

33 minutes ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

I think we found ourselves a stat guy.  Stat guys never call themselves stat guys, but we all know...

Why would you not use all of the information available to you? Including the film and the stats.

 

I consider myself a “has a brain guy.” Harder and harder to find types like me out there.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, JoshAllenHasBigHands said:

 

Do you want a good illustration of the difference in how people view the All-22?  I think it is the stat crowd that hounds on Edmunds, and the All-22 people that think he is playing very well.  

 

I disagree with that.  I watch All-22, and at times I think Edmunds play sucks.  I don't look at the kind of stats where Edmunds shows up - the advanced metrics stuff

 

3 minutes ago, MJS said:

Hmm, fantasy football actually helps you understand a lot. The serious fantasy football players are usually the first ones to know when an offensive player is having a breakout year. They don't just follow the points, they also do research to see if a big game was only a flash in the pan or a consistent trend. They look at stuff like snap counts, targets / touches, and especially defensive / offensive matchups. They don't care about hype or name recognition, they just follow the consistently productive players no matter who they are. They pay attention to injury status and how that might affect another player's performance. They pay attention to red zone touches / targets / production. It is much more in-depth than looking at the box score.

 

When I started getting into fantasy football it vastly increased my knowledge of other teams, other players, and informs my opinions on who I think the Bills should target in free agency. It gave me a reason to watch more than just Bills football and gave me a bigger picture understanding of the league. And it gives people an avenue to look at every single team in the league completely objectively.

 

Fair enough.  My experience of Fantasy folks is that they become fixated on stuff like tackles and passing yards and TD receptions to the exclusion of just playing solid winning football.

[GoBills808]

Defensively you’ll get a lot of context by doing some research on McDermott’s defenses in Carolina, it’s a very similar system. You can extrapolate from there and if you have a basic understanding of responsibilities in his scheme and how our different personnel packages operate I think you can draw some decent conclusions.

[MJS]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair enough.  My experience of Fantasy folks is that they become fixated on stuff like tackles and passing yards and TD receptions to the exclusion of just playing solid winning football.

There are different styles of playing and different levels of competence out there.

 

I usually do pretty well in my leagues, and part of the reason why is I am very active bringing players on and off of my team every week. I play matchups more than focusing on individual players. I try to identify WHY a player is not performing or WHY he is. Part of that is looking at how they are being used. And I feel that informs me in a broad, general sense about the league as a whole and thus gives me more context into how the Bills specifically are performing.

 

I'll concede that fantasy football is focused heavily on the offense, and not as much on defense, and it is easy to look only at the surface statistics, but those who are really into it try to go deeper.