TwistofFate Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Nihilarian said: This last game was a perfect example on how to develop a young, inexperienced QB by running more and passing less, 20 pass attempts vs 39 rush attempts. Some Bills fans don't like it and say its Jauron ball. Too bad, as this is how you develop a QB into an elite passer. Don't force that QB to carry the offense and instead allow him to help win the game! did it develop jp? Did it develop trent? Jps stats were similar to Allens this year in his second year and he got benched then ran out of town.
Nihilarian Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said: You mean like 2 other QBs we could have had? Watson - 32 games, 683/1011 67.6 %. 63 TD/22 INT 8296 yds. 259 yds/game Mahomes - 24 games, 562/856. 65.7%. 65 TD/14 INT. 7561 yds. 315 yds/game Not every QB develops at the same pace as there are so many variables. Josh Allen didn't play in a big time football program in college nor was he developed under an offensive genius in the NFL. Allen didn't play at USC or UCLA in a scheme that had good to really great players around him as every player that had touched the football at Wyoming in 2016 was gone in 2017. His final season he had to deal with offensive players just learning their jobs. Plus he was in an NFL style deep passing scheme that didn't have a lot of short passes like Mayfield, Darnold or Rosen had to pad his completion percentage. Josh Allen was touted as being a project developmental project and unlike those other three wasn't as polished or NFL ready to start. He was supposed to sit and learn for a season. The problem was the QB this offensive regime had picked to be the 2018 starting QB was Nathan Peterman...how did that turn out? What does that alone tell you about the mentality of the Bills offensive coaches? Allen was thrown into the fire the first game after the Bills brain trust giving Peterman all the first team reps all off season. This tells me that Allen's offensive coaches pretty much had their proverbial heads up their posterior! Patrick Mahomes was able to sit, learn and develop for a YEAR behind a #1 overall pick at QB in Alex Smith and taught and developed by an NFL offensive genius in Andy Reid. Like comparing apples to tables. Watson is a different story but his HC was an NFC offensive mind with a New England Patriots background...you didn't see attempting to start Nathan Peterman. Bill O'Brian fielded winning teams with Fitz, Hoyer, Osweiler, Tom Savage at QB Right now there is no question that Josh Allen is better then Baker Mayfield who is graded as the worst starting QB in the NFL. Rosen isn't even a starter and Darnold is 1-4 and playing on a team that was touted to contend for the AFC East division. 1-7 The NFL isn't easy as the past is filled with so many failed first round QB's. Allen is a young and up and coming superstar being led by an OC who has never fielded an offense better then 20th in his six seasons, 4 NFL teams. In actuality, it's Allen who's making Daboll look like a viable NFL OC.
John from Riverside Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, TwistofFate said: did it develop jp? Did it develop trent? Jps stats were similar to Allens this year in his second year and he got benched then ran out of town. Yes lets keep making future decisions on QB based on past failures God your posts are bad 1 1
Billsflyer12 Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nihilarian said: Not every QB develops at the same pace as there are so many variables. Josh Allen didn't play in a big time football program in college nor was he developed under an offensive genius in the NFL. Allen didn't play at USC or UCLA in a scheme that had good to really great players around him as every player that had touched the football at Wyoming in 2016 was gone in 2017. His final season he had to deal with offensive players just learning their jobs. Plus he was in an NFL style deep passing scheme that didn't have a lot of short passes like Mayfield, Darnold or Rosen had to pad his completion percentage. Josh Allen was touted as being a project developmental project and unlike those other three wasn't as polished or NFL ready to start. He was supposed to sit and learn for a season. The problem was the QB this offensive regime had picked to be the 2018 starting QB was Nathan Peterman...how did that turn out? What does that alone tell you about the mentality of the Bills offensive coaches? Allen was thrown into the fire the first game after the Bills brain trust giving Peterman all the first team reps all off season. This tells me that Allen's offensive coaches pretty much had their proverbial heads up their posterior! Patrick Mahomes was able to sit, learn and develop for a YEAR behind a #1 overall pick at QB in Alex Smith and taught and developed by an NFL offensive genius in Andy Reid. Like comparing apples to tables. Watson is a different story but his HC was an NFC offensive mind with a New England Patriots background...you didn't see attempting to start Nathan Peterman. Bill O'Brian fielded winning teams with Fitz, Hoyer, Osweiler, Tom Savage at QB Right now there is no question that Josh Allen is better then Baker Mayfield who is graded as the worst starting QB in the NFL. Rosen isn't even a starter and Darnold is 1-4 and playing on a team that was touted to contend for the AFC East division. 1-7 The NFL isn't easy as the past is filled with so many failed first round QB's. Allen is a young and up and coming superstar being led by an OC who has never fielded an offense better then 20th in his six seasons, 4 NFL teams. In actuality, it's Allen who's making Daboll look like a viable NFL OC. I don’t blame Josh at all and I like him. It’s not his fault for where he was drafted, what team drafts him and what type of coaches coach him. I blame McBeane. They not only passed on 2 college college QBs from power 5 conferences that passed for over 10,000 yds and 65% completion %. They gave up 2 2nd round picks to get a mountain west QB that even his biggest supporters says was a project. Has he improved, sure maybe some this season in some areas. I’m hoping he has similar path as Big Ben career wise. A big QB, out of small conference, who had slow 1st couple of seasons, that grows into a all pro, super bowl winning QB. There is time, and I’m hoping for his success. 1 1
Pokebball Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said: I don’t blame Josh at all and I like him. It’s not his fault for where he was drafted, what team drafts him and what type of coaches coach him. I blame McBeane. They not only passed on 2 college college QBs from power 5 conferences that passed for over 10,000 yds and 65% completion %. They gave up 2 2nd round picks to get a mountain west QB that even his biggest supporters says was a project. Has he improved, sure maybe some this season in some areas. I’m hoping he has similar path as Big Ben career wise. A big QB, out of small conference, who had slow 1st couple of seasons, that grows into a all pro, super bowl winning QB. There is time, and I’m hoping for his success. Do you think the two QBs you mentioned from P5 conferences were/are projects? I think everyone here does with the possible exception of you???
Billl Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, wiley16350 said: His 2019 stats show that he has improved but you meld them with his 2018 stats so that no improvement is shown. That is the problem with stats as you can construct them and contort them to fit an argument. I didn't watch a lot of Allen at Wyoming and what I did see was a team that wasn't really that talented and not necessarily a QB that wasn't good enough. I can back that argument up with the fact that Wyoming has only made it to a bowl game twice since 2012. Do you want to guess who the QB was both years that they did get to a bowl game? It was Josh Allen, in case you didn't want to guess. Craig Bohl had 2 losing seasons before Allen and 1 .500 season after Allen. How good is he without Allen? The stats say not very good but it is possible that the team was building the first 2 years and then were ready to compete when Allen arrived and then they lost too much talent when Allen left and they had a down year but are doing well this year. Allen started for a bad team in his rookie season and now that the talent is improved around him, he is playing better. Despite what you say, he has improved and he will continue to improve if the team around him continues to improve too. I initially called the Bills dumb for trading up to get Allen, I thought they could get him or Rosen at their original spot. I preferred Rosen but that was all based on what the media was saying and not on what I had seen because I didn't watch much of either QB in college. unlike other people though, I was o.k. with the Allen pick pretty soon after because he definitely seemed more suited to the Bills than Rosen was from the things that I was hearing about their personalities and how they responded to be drafted where they were drafted. The more I watch Allen, especially the all-22 video, the more I like his potential and his ability to improve. He is a better QB on the all-22 than he is on TV. I have said it here before, he is the opposite to Tyrod Taylor in that respect. Taylor looks better on TV than on the all-22. So I don't care how much better his stats are, Taylor wasn't really better. Taylor's best season was 2015 and people just don't realize how good that team was because he made them worse than they actually were. Here are the skill players he had that season: LeSean McCoy, Percy Harvin, Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Chris hogan, Marquise Goodwin and Charles Clay. People loved to complain about the receivers back then but go and look to see what kind of success each of those players have had without Tyrod throwing them the ball. That was a great running team too. They also had 3 pro-bowl offensive lineman. It should have been a playoff team but the passing game wasn't good enough to overcome a defense that ranked 15th in points. 2018 stats: 237 yards per game, 10 TD passes, 12 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 8 fumbles 2019 stats: 237 yards per have, 10 TD passes, 7 INTs, 4 rushing TDs, 10 fumbles.
Mark92 Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 I think patience is the key with Josh. They didn't draft him to be a day 1 franchise QB. They knew he had the tools to be one but had to learn the trade. Get back to me in 2 years. 1
Billsflyer12 Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 35 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Do you think the two QBs you mentioned from P5 conferences were/are projects? I think everyone here does with the possible exception of you??? No, not projects. Both Mahomes and Watson passed for well over 5,000 yds, 65% Completion. Both had at least 45 TDs and less then 18 INTs in their 1st 20 starts.
Captain Hindsight Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 3 hours ago, TwistofFate said: did it develop jp? Did it develop trent? Jps stats were similar to Allens this year in his second year and he got benched then ran out of town. JP was given up on too early. The fans got excited by Trent's one decent drive against NE*** and his 3 point offensive explosion against Dallas with 7 extra possessions and dumped JP too soon. JP wasn't great, but he was a hell of a lot better than Trent McDermott isn't going to be wishy washy on the QB anymore. He learned his lesson with Picked off Peterman. As long as Josh isn't a liability, he will be the QB. 1
Meatloaf63 Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 17 hours ago, GoBills808 said: Jackson didn't do what 'nobody else could do'...the Pats defense is giving up about 150 yards per game and Jackson threw for 163. He did pretty much what every QB does against the Patriots. The story was Ingram's 7.7 YPC and the Ravens' 210 total rushing yards. By comparison, Bills QBs threw for 280 yards against the Patriots. The difference was Jackson didn't throw any picks and Allen threw 3 and Barkley 1. That’s what I said in a nutshell, he operated the offense that is designed to his strengths, he didn’t make any errors, he just looked in control. But if you don’t think the 7.7 average Ingram produced wasn’t related to the defense trying to keep Jackson in check, well then we will just have to agree to disagree.
Pokebball Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 59 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said: No, not projects. Both Mahomes and Watson passed for well over 5,000 yds, 65% Completion. Both had at least 45 TDs and less then 18 INTs in their 1st 20 starts. We'll need to disagree then. P5 is no where close to the NFL. Every draft pick is a project.
Pokebball Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said: You mean like 2 other QBs we could have had? Watson - 32 games, 683/1011 67.6 %. 63 TD/22 INT 8296 yds. 259 yds/game Mahomes - 24 games, 562/856. 65.7%. 65 TD/14 INT. 7561 yds. 315 yds/game Question was “Is Josh Allen improving as a passer”. Correct? I just posted ALL of his stats from college and pros side by side. I guess anyone can slice specific games or specific few games. I just showed them all. You didn't come close to showing "them all". On the one hand you say that Wyoming is so inferior to P5 schools and then you want to credit everything at Wyoming to one kid. You can't have it both ways man! How would have any of these P5 QBs performed at Wyo? How well would JA have preformed at one of these P5 schools? You can't ignore that context, along with all of the "better" talent around these P5 QBs. Your "them all" stats totally whif on this context. Please tell me you understand that. 6 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said: And yet he is basically the same QB we was in college after 20 games. Time will tell if he improves on that, history largely shows he won’t. I hope he does. I hated the pick, especially giving up 2 2nd picks to get him, but am really hoping he and Bills are super successful. No he's not, and it's not even close.
Just Joshin' Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm surprised it's up to ~10% "No" Really, after some of what passes for analysis there are more than 10% who don't know football, dislike Allen or are trolls. 1
Dr. Who Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm surprised it's up to ~10% "No" The petulant and the dim. I surmise much of the negative vote is simply an expression of the belief Allen will not develop into a franchise qb, because it's nearly self-evident Allen has improved his game overall from his rookie year, though the long ball has regressed. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said: Really, after some of what passes for analysis there are more than 10% who don't know football, dislike Allen or are trolls. Nah. But trolls and people with strong viewpoints tend to post a lot, so it does give them a louder presence I guess. I would say (glancing over it) about 1/4-1/3 of the people who voted "No" actually know something about football and don't globally "dislike Allen". It would probably have to do with his stats being pretty much unchanged since the end of last year post-injury except for completion % But that's a biggy and it's a significant jump. Eyeballs matter, too. I see real progress. (click to embiggen, note 6 games vs ?
Pokebball Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Billl said: 2018 stats: 237 yards per game, 10 TD passes, 12 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 8 fumbles 2019 stats: 237 yards per have, 10 TD passes, 7 INTs, 4 rushing TDs, 10 fumbles. 2-6 6-2
BuffaloHokie13 Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I'm surprised it's up to ~10% "No" Maybe I'm just optimistic about our folks, but I assume those people intend to say he is not improving enough for their liking, rather than he's not improving at all. 1 1 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 7, 2019 Posted November 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Billl said: 2018 stats: 237 yards per game, 10 TD passes, 12 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 8 fumbles 2019 stats: 237 yards per have, 10 TD passes, 7 INTs, 4 rushing TDs, 10 fumbles. Where do you get 237 YPG for 2018 and 2019? Should be 173 for 2018 and 207 for 2019. Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost. Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps. 2
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