Simple poll. Is Josh Allen improving as a passer?

[H2o]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

2018 stats:

237 yards per game, 10 TD passes, 12 INTs, 8 rushing TDs, 8 fumbles

 

2019 stats:

237 yards per have, 10 TD passes, 7 INTs, 4 rushing TDs, 10 fumbles.

 

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where do you get 237 YPG for 2018 and 2019?  Should be 173 for 2018 and 207 for 2019.

Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost.  Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps.

I was just about to say something about this as well HBF.  

 

On a side note, "Billl" just started his account yesterday. The same day this thread was started. Pretty coincidental you think? Yeah, not really. An already member trolling twice as hard in the same thread under two separate names. I have a pretty good idea whom it might be. 

[Tesla03]

On 11/6/2019 at 12:51 PM, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

7 TDs & only 1 INT, in his last 4 games. 6 of the 7 TDs were in the redzone & 5 were to WRs(All weak points last year). Yeah he's improving. 

 

For comparison...Some are treating Lamar like he's God, he runs a lot I get it, but in his last 4 games he had games of 161 yards, 236 yards, 143 yards & 163 yards with only 2 TDs & 3 INTs. Matter of fact take the Miami game out and he has only 7 TDs & 5 INTs in his other 7 games. 

 

 

sorry is that 7TD's for Allen passing or passing + rushing?

 

If your going to exclude rushing td's for Jackson do it for Allen as well 

[H2o]

4 minutes ago, Tesla03 said:

 

 

sorry is that 7TD's for Allen passing or passing + rushing?

 

If your going to exclude rushing td's for Jackson do it for Allen as well 

http://www.nfl.com/player/joshallen/2560955/gamelogs

 

Passing

[Billsflyer12]

1 hour ago, Pokebball said:

You didn't come close to showing "them all".   On the one hand you say that Wyoming is so inferior to P5 schools and then you want to credit everything at Wyoming to one kid.  You can't have it both ways man!  How would have any of these P5 QBs performed at Wyo?  How well would JA have preformed at one of these P5 schools?  You can't ignore that context, along with all of the "better" talent around these P5 QBs.  Your "them all" stats totally whif on this context.  Please tell me you understand that.

No he's not, and it's not even close.

I guess I’m not sure what your logic is.

 

1)  There were reasons why Josh was at Wyoming and not a P5 school.  Not recruited out of HS, and only 2 D1 offers out of JC Wyoming and Eastern Michigan.

 

2). Yes, I think if you put Watson or Mahomes on the exactly same Wyoming team they would have been better then Josh.

 

3). Big Ben played in the MAC, started almost every game all 3 years he was there without P5 talent, and was significantly better statistically.  Joe Flacco at Delaware we’re he passed for almost 7000yds and 64% completion in his 24 starts there, not P5 talent around him.

 

4). Yes I think that elite talent at inferior schools should do be expected to do really well.  Also remember, they may not have P5 talent on their team, but they aren’t playing P5 talent either.

 

I hope Josh is amazing.  For or me Joe Flacco or Big Ben careers would be great result for Josh.  Could have had 2 HOF level QBs and given up no draft capital for them.  JMHO

 

Also, I have 2 boys in school at Colorado St, have seen tons of MWC football including Josh in person his last year.   Also have 2 D1 football playing nephews.

Edited November 7, 2019 by Billsflyer12

[Dr.Sack]

He has the physical & mental. Now it’s just basically confidence and recognition that he’s developing. The improvement is evident as he’s scrambling and stepping up in the pocket to create space and keeping his eyes downfield looking to throw first. Unlike 2018 he isn’t tucking it and running on all scrambles. I want to see him continue to do this. He’s playing very efficient as of late. The next challenge is can he lead our offense when our defense is having a bad game? 

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where do you get 237 YPG for 2018 and 2019?  Should be 173 for 2018 and 207 for 2019.

Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost.  Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps.

The yards per have stat includes his passing yards plus rushing yards.  You seem to be suggesting that the fact that his teammates have recovered the majority of his fumbles means that he's improved his ball security.  That's a strange position to take.  Halfway through the season, he's put it on the ground 10 times.  12 led the league last year, and Josh is on pace for 20.

 

I didn't vote in the poll and can see progress he's made in some areas and regression in others.  The fact that this poll is so lopsided is more a function of the site on which it's posted than Allen's actual play.  His performance hasn't changed materially from last season either direction.  Baker and Darnold have regressed.  Jackson has improved.  Rosen,  and Allen are about the same as they were last season.  The only people tasting this as some sort of hot take are those looking at things with their hearts rather than their heads.

[Pokebball]

14 minutes ago, Billsflyer12 said:

I guess I’m not sure what your logic is.

 

1)  There were reasons why Josh was at Wyoming and not a P5 school.  Not recruited out of HS, and only 2 D1 offers out of JC Wyoming and Eastern Michigan.

 

2). Yes, I think if you put Watson or Mahomes on the exactly same Wyoming team they would have been better then Josh.

 

3). Big Ben played in the MAC, started almost every game all 3 years he was there without P5 talent, and was significantly better statistically.  Joe Flacco at Delaware we’re he passed for almost 7000yds and 64% completion in his 24 starts there, not P5 talent around him.

 

4). Yes I think that elite talent at inferior schools should do be expected to do really well.  Also remember, they may not have P5 talent on their team, but they aren’t playing P5 talent either.

 

I hope Josh is amazing.  For or me Joe Flacco or Big Ben careers would be great result for Josh.  Could have had 2 HOF level QBs and given up no draft capital for them.  JMHO

 

Also, I have 2 boys in school at Colorado St, have seen tons of MWC football including Josh in person his last year.   Also have 2 D1 football playing nephews.

A CSU fan.  I get the JA hate now.

[Tcali]

21 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

How do you only see slightly from the last 4 games, I would extend back to game two except for pats*-he is a competent game manager right now which he was not before, he clearly learns during games and his running game can not pick up 3rd and 1 unless he is running, he is more a plus than negative on a 6-2 team. I did not expect him to be this good this fast.

I like JA. I just think he is not quite where you claim he is. Im hoping he is there in 1-2 more years.

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, wiley16350 said:

What are you basing the Daboll Scheming throws on?  Seems like this weeks game because the Bills haven't really thrown that many screen passes or slants.  They did this week but they haven't been staples of the offense all year.  Shovel passes have been 1-2 each week but the other ones haven't been that prevalent.  The one pass that was seemingly behind McKenzie was actually perfect because of where the linebacker was.  He would have led him into a hit if it wasn't behind him.  Go watch some Cover-1 episodes on youtube and you'll see that Allen is being asked to make big boy reads and they aren't scheming plays to make things easier.  Hell, if calling screen passes and slants is what coordinators do to help a QB that can't read defenses then the Patriots are very afraid to let Tom Brady make full field reads.

I am just basing the scheming comment on my observations.  This past game was certainly the most obvious example - and it’s one of only 3 games this season that I rewatched where I could pay attention.  I do think the offense is skewing toward shorter passing and running (including Allen).  I’ll watch to see if that is accurate.

 

Reads aren’t Allen’s big issue, accuracy is.  That is really what’s holding him back as a QB and that’s the main reason his advanced stats are so dismal.  That has to improve or he will be what holds this team back.

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said:

I guess I’m not sure what your logic is.

 

1)  There were reasons why Josh was at Wyoming and not a P5 school.  Not recruited out of HS, and only 2 D1 offers out of JC Wyoming and Eastern Michigan.

 

2). Yes, I think if you put Watson or Mahomes on the exactly same Wyoming team they would have been better then Josh.

 

3). Big Ben played in the MAC, started almost every game all 3 years he was there without P5 talent, and was significantly better statistically.  Joe Flacco at Delaware we’re he passed for almost 7000yds and 64% completion in his 24 starts there, not P5 talent around him.

 

4). Yes I think that elite talent at inferior schools should do be expected to do really well.  Also remember, they may not have P5 talent on their team, but they aren’t playing P5 talent either.

 

I hope Josh is amazing.  For or me Joe Flacco or Big Ben careers would be great result for Josh.  Could have had 2 HOF level QBs and given up no draft capital for them.  JMHO

 

Also, I have 2 boys in school at Colorado St, have seen tons of MWC football including Josh in person his last year.   Also have 2 D1 football playing nephews.

You do make some great and valid points. You will be labeled as a hater.  I want Allen to be awesome to but I have for a long time worried that he never has really been a dominant player on any level and we are just hoping he will on the nfl.  There are a lot of excuses made like his college coaching (he had Wentz’ college  coach) and talent level (I saw someone compare Wyoming has more offensive players on nfl rosters than UCLA). 

 

That said, we’re 6-2 and he’s shown growth on the intermediate throws. So there’s hope.  But its ok to have some doubts.  I would love to just see a complete game from him, especially against a good opponent (I think the Minnesota game was his best game). JMO. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

The yards per have stat includes his passing yards plus rushing yards. 

 

Still incorrect then

2018: 172.8 + 52.6 = 225.4

2019: 206.6 + 30.9 = 237.5

 

Oh, and if you're using total yards (rush and passing) why not use Total TDs (rush and passing)/game:  1.64 to 1.75.

2 hours ago, Billl said:

You seem to be suggesting that the fact that his teammates have recovered the majority of his fumbles means that he's improved his ball security. 

 

Um, I don't think I said anything at all that remotely suggests that.  I said:" Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost.  Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps."  

 

I think it's important to note both, and to be clear about what one is talking about.  I ran into that myself when discussing Tyrod Taylor, who fumbled a lot.  People chided me for discussing total fumbles, instead of fumbles lost.  I think the point is to be clear.

 

Quote

I didn't vote in the poll and can see progress he's made in some areas and regression in others.  The fact that this poll is so lopsided is more a function of the site on which it's posted than Allen's actual play.  His performance hasn't changed materially from last season either direction. 

 

Now that is a strange position to take.  Because his performance has indeed changed.  It can be seen in statistics (higher completion %) and by eye (better short/intermediate passing, better anticipation)

 

 

[Augie]

4 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

The petulant and the dim. I surmise much of the negative vote is simply an expression of the belief Allen will not develop into a franchise qb, because it's nearly self-evident Allen has improved his game overall from his rookie year, though the long ball has regressed.

 

This shows a lack of reading comprehension on the part of those who voted no, or might possibly the sign of a brain tumor. Read the question. There is only one correct answer, whether people like it or not. 

 

Edited for clarity. 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Augie

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Billsflyer12 said:

I guess I’m not sure what your logic is.

1)  There were reasons why Josh was at Wyoming and not a P5 school.  Not recruited out of HS, and only 2 D1 offers out of JC Wyoming and Eastern Michigan.

 

Just curious what you feel those reasons were?

 

[Pokebball]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just curious what you feel those reasons were?

 

@Billsflyer12 is a Colorado State fan that joined this board a couple of months after Josh was drafted.  He's only hear to troll Bills fans about Josh.

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Still incorrect then

2018: 172.8 + 52.6 = 225.4

2019: 206.6 + 30.9 = 237.5

 

Oh, and if you're using total yards (rush and passing) why not use Total TDs (rush and passing)/game:  1.64 to 1.75.

 

Um, I don't think I said anything at all that remotely suggests that.  I said:" Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost.  Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps."  

 

I think it's important to note both, and to be clear about what one is talking about.  I ran into that myself when discussing Tyrod Taylor, who fumbled a lot.  People chided me for discussing total fumbles, instead of fumbles lost.  I think the point is to be clear.

 

 

Now that is a strange position to take.  Because his performance has indeed changed.  It can be seen in statistics (higher completion %) and by eye (better short/intermediate passing, better anticipation)

 

 

@Billl joined the board yesterday.  He's trolling

[GreggTX]

Yes. The real question is 'where is his ceiling?' If his accuracy doesn't improve and his awareness improves some more, he'll be an elite scrambler with elite arm strength and an average pocket passer. All together, that makes him above average. I don't think he'll ever be a top 10 QB, though.

[x-BillzeBubba]

you might find this interesting 

 

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/board/105323/Contents/josh-allen-vs-baker-mayfield-138174013/

[C.Biscuit97]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just curious what you feel those reasons were?

 

Him being a 49% passer at Juco probably didn’t help. But I believe he was really skinny. 

7 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

@Billsflyer12 is a Colorado State fan that joined this board a couple of months after Josh was drafted.  He's only hear to troll Bills fans about Josh.

@Billl joined the board yesterday.  He's trolling

I literally had no idea Colorado State- Wyoming was a rivalry. So this huge CSU fan joined here just to troll the former Wyoming qb.  Because if they did, that kinda of craziness is impressive. 

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where do you get 237 YPG for 2018 and 2019?  Should be 173 for 2018 and 207 for 2019.

Edit: it should also be noted those are total fumbles, not fumbles lost.  Both matter, but lost matters more and 2 of them were snaps.

of note I’ll say that fumbles lost mattering less is an opinion held by some of the respected minds of the game

 

I think I’ve seen both Schwartz and BB subscribing to whether it’s a loss being mostly random and the ball leaving the hand being the much more important end for judging. The snap being a little of an outlier probably but you get the idea I’d bet.

[Augie]

1 minute ago, GreggTX said:

Yes. The real question is 'where is his ceiling?' If his accuracy doesn't improve and his awareness improves some more, he'll be an elite scrambler with elite arm strength and an average pocket passer. All together, that makes him above average. I don't think he'll ever be a top 10 QB, though.

 

Yes, this could all very well be true. Time will tell. 

 

To vote “no” is just to show you have an agenda. The truth is obvious and easy to prove with the numbers. The eye test also supports this.  Now, if you want to expand upon why you don’t think he’ll ever be the guy....well that would be the reasonable approach. 

[Warcodered]

14 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

@Billsflyer12 is a Colorado State fan that joined this board a couple of months after Josh was drafted.  He's only hear to troll Bills fans about Josh.

So you're saying his reasons are that Wyoming won the Bronze Boot every year Allen started.?