Daboll is an excellent play caller

[Chas6969]

He had one bad game and that was the Eagles game. Then this post gets posted for the rats to feast on?? He has been on a number of teams, Pro and College. Spent 5 years with NE and was their OC. Got a SB win. College Championship too. He moved on from each because he wants to learn more. Not because he was bad. Last year, his first he was great with the limited play makers he had. This year he has 9 new players to incorporate into his system. He has had his ups and downs because of that. I am so glad to have him here coaching where he's from. GO BILLS!!

Edited November 7, 2019 by Chas6969

[LSHMEAB]

15 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Daboll's bigger problem is pretty bad play design. Also earlier this year  John Brown said it was the most complicated offense he ever played in. That does not seem to jive with wood's assessment. 

 

At this point the Allen-Daboll combo is not great. Maybe its Allen, maybe its Daboll.  Before I would assign the word "excellent" to the Bills offense, I would like to see them score more points against their opponents than the league does on average.  Through the first 8 games, the Bills are scoring 16% fewer points against our opponents, than other teams have. This may not be a disaster. But it is quite clearly not excellent. 

Agreed. When I take a step back, the real question becomes is Josh Allen an E-P quarterback? The answer is a decisive no IMO. So then the question becomes whether or not Daboll can adjust his playbook enough to work with Allen's strengths and minimize his weaknesses. I don't know the answer, but I think that's the question. So far this season, the results just haven't been there. It's within the realm of possibility that the real problem is that Daboll and JA just don't mesh. We'll see what happens. 

 

They've still got 8 weeks to get on the same page this season.

[Albany,n.y.]

If you went through the archives you'll find the most unpopular guy in Buffalo is the OC .  Then when they go elsewhere, they become the it guy in the league.  Remember all the anti Greg Roman  posts when he was here?.  Now he's the genius behind Lamar Jackson in Baltimore.  In Buffalo they called Kevin Gilbride "Kevin Killdrive".  Then he went to the NYG  and got a Super Bow ring . Amazing how they are always bums i Buffalo and heroes at their next stop.  Maybe it's not the OC but what he's got to work with.  If you told anyone the Bills would be 6-2 halfway through the season the fear would be Daboll would leave for a head coaching job at season's end.  Yet now 6-2 isn't good enough for the Run  the OC  out of town crowd.

[Chas6969]

Albany! Telling truth!

[Nihilarian]

19 hours ago, stuvian said:

running Gore 3 x in a row on the goal line was real innovative

 

 The only good thing that the Redskins defense had going for them was a very, very good defensive line. So, rather then dump on the Bills O line, I gotta wonder how many times do you continue to run Frank Gore up the middle before you realize he isn't going to get it done. When you already know that the strongest part of that Washington defense was the line and the LBers, DBs aren't that good...why run straight into the teeth?

 

That first quarter drive that had the Bills on the Washington 2 yard line resulted in a sack for -6 yards on first down. Then on 2nd down and 8 the Bills lost 8 yards on a pass. Then on 3rd and 16 there was an aborted snap which lost another 8 yards. So now the Bills are forced into a FG at the Washington 24 yard line. Many posters here cited the Bills OC as getting "cute" with the play calls! 

 

Looking at that 2nd quarter Bills drive from the Redskins one yard line Daboll called 3x straight up the middle runs with Gore that went nowhere! Where was the innovation? Where was the elite play calling that Eric Wood was touting? This was Nathaniel Hackett all over again. 

 

Why didn't Daboll run Singletary more against the Eagles with Gore averaging 3.8 YPC and Singletary 6.8? Well, in all probability judging from the Bills presser McD gave Daboll a swift kick and told him to run the rookie more against Washington. Still, Gore got 11 carries...for 15 yards a 1.4 Yard Per Carry average against the Redskins. 

 

NOW, this last game was against a bad team, bad on defense and bad on offense ...also starting a rookie QB that even both sets of Redskins HCs stated wasn't ready to start. Yet Skins RB Adrian Peterson had 108 yards on 18 carries a 6.0 YPC avg. 

 

Think about what would have happened had the Bills not gotten a lead in the this game? Most likely the Bills OC has Josh Allen throwing more and running Singletary less. 

 

The Bills are facing another bad team with both their defense and offense in the 20s and the #1 overall pick Baker Mayfield is currently grading as the worst starting QB in the league. Yet, this Browns team found the wherewithal to beat the Baltimore Ravens 40-25 (a Ravens team who just beat the unbeaten Patriots) mostly with Nick Chubbs legs, 20 carries for 165 yards, 3 TDs, an 8.3 YPC AVG.

 

While the Bills might have some decent red zone efficiency ...the Bills offense still ranks 22nd in points for, 23rd in yards and 26th in passing yards. This last game was exactly how the offense should be working regardless of the score. Run the hot hand at RB to carry the offense and allow Josh Allen help win the game while not forcing him to be the hero. Lets see what happens now. 

[billsbackto81]

14 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Daboll has his play maker (Singletary) back in the lineup. He was NOT completely healthy till the Washington game. IF Daboll can get him the ball more often then might recommend him as a head coach in Miami or maybe Washington, his choice

Pretty sure he played in the Philly game where he had 3 carries for 19 yds. at 6.3 a carry. Seemed pretty healthy and under utilized to me.

[Ayjent]

On 11/6/2019 at 6:49 AM, CommonCents said:

He eliminated the QB runs last week and started Singletary. I think some of that came from the HC. The team is better off. 

 

I’m fine with him now as long as it stays this way. 

He didn't entirely eliminate them and Allen fumbled deep in Bills territory - thankfully they recovered the ball.  He needs to find a better play call to run in short yardage in their own territory.

[colin]

i don't think he's good, let alone excellent.

 

our O is pretty friggen bad, except in the redzone.  it was worse last year.

 

he also had bad results for most of the teams he's worked for.  he does some obvious and horrible things w play calling too.

 

our QB is still raw, we don't have much for WR, our oline is like ok to decent, and our TEs are at best un  proven, so i cut the guy some slack, but he hasn't shown he's good.

 

him not featuring motor when motor is OBVIOUSLY our best weapon shows me he is too cute and doesn't just do what works enough.

[london_bills]

10 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I defended Daboll earlier for his overall performance but he should be ripped for repeatedly running Allen. That is only thing he has done that is STUPID and should never be done except for situations where we need the yards for a chance to win.

If Allen doesn't fumble and slides then maybe they are good calls? Dabolls not fumbling the ball.

 

They scored and got 1st downs with these plays alot. Do they emphasise not fumbling with Allen and continue to run some or do they abandon his runs because he has fumbled. 

[Chas6969]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Pretty sure he played in the Philly game where he had 3 carries for 19 yds. at 6.3 a carry. Seemed pretty healthy and under utilized to me.

That right there is a flawed comment. McD always uses players coming off the IL sparingly. Motor came back very quickly from his injury, quicker than most do. He  played him with that quick return in mind. He also explained why in his Eagles post game presser. A damn smart approach mind you.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, Chas6969 said:

He had one bad game and that was the Eagles game. Then this post gets posted for the rats to feast on?? He has been on a number of teams, Pro and College. Spent 5 years with NE and was their OC. Got a SB win. College Championship too. He moved on from each because he wants to learn more. Not because he was bad. Last year, his first he was great with the limited play makers he had. This year he has 9 new players to incorporate into his system. He has had his ups and downs because of that. I am so glad to have him here coaching where he's from. GO BILLS!!

 

Oh my!  "Posted here for Rats to feed on"?  Look, hyperbole is one thing but at least get your facts straight.  You are obviously posting without actually doing any research on Daboll, as a quick trip to Wiki or to Pro-football-reference would have set you straight.  I will leave it to the reader to decide if Daboll's record is good or bad.  I think the best that can be said is that he has been OC for some bad teams with marginal to bad QB'ing and he generally hasn't made things better. 

 

Factual corrections to your Daboll Resume:

 

Daboll's positions with NE*** were "defensive assistant" "WR coach" "assistant coach" and "TE coach".  He spent two stints with NE*** 2000-2006 and 2013-2016. 

 

The Patriots*** won 5 SB during those stints, not one.

 

Daboll was never the OC with NE.  It's unknown how much he had to do with drawing up plays for them.  Belicheck**** and McDaniels*** both have reputations for keeping things close to their vests as coaches/coordinators.

 

Daboll moved on from NE after the 2006 season, the season when Josh McDaniels was officially promoted from QB coach to Offensive Coordinator.

He took a position as QB coach for the NYJ (2007-2008)
 

He then accepted positions as OC for Eric Mangini in Cleveland (2009-2010), for Tony Sparano then Bowles in Miami (2011) and for Romeo Crennel in Kansas City (2012)

In each case he was relieved of his responsibilities as part of a HC change.

 

Offensive rank  on points (W-L record) [QB] before and after Daboll

Browns

2008 (before): 30 (4-12) [Derek Anderson]

2009: 29 (5-11) [Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson]

2010: 31 (5-11) [Colt McCoy, Jake Delhomme age 35, Seneca Wallace]  Colt McCoy drafted 3rd round, rookie

2011 (after): 30 (4-12) [Colt McCoy, Seneca Wallace]

 

Miami

2010 (before): 30 (7-9) [Chad Henne]

2011: 20 (6-10) [Matt Moore]

2012 (after): 27 (7-9) [drafted Ryan Tannehill]

 

Kansas City

2011 (before): 31 (7-9) [Matt Cassell]

2012: 32 (2-14) [Matt Cassell]

2013 (after): 6 (11-5) [Andy Reid released Matt Cassel and traded a 2nd round pick for Alex Smith]

 

After KC Daboll returned to NE for 4 years (assistant coach, then TE coach).  It is a positive for him that Belicheck had him back.

 

Buffalo Bills

2016 (before): 10 (7-9) [Tyrod Taylor]

2017 (before): 22 (9-7) [Tyrod Taylor]

2018: 30 (6-10) [Nate Peterman, Josh Allen, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley]

2019: 22 (ongoing) [Josh Allen]

 

I have not seen Rats feeding anywhere on TBD.  Trolls, yes.  Crusaders, yes.  Campaigners, yes.  Idio...I mean, people with mistaken views awaiting enlightenment, H*** Yes!.

 

Edit: alter Todd Bowles for Tony Sparano as Dolphins HC who hired Daboll.  Thank you @GunnerBill for the minor correction that does not vitiate the main point: contrary to the OP's claims, Daboll did not voluntarily move on from his OC positions, he was terminated post-season when the HC was changed.

 

 

12 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

Dayboll as OC this season of the Bills has a record of 6-2, the Bills are winning

 

Nuff said, close this thread, or does the Bills record only apply to players people like?

 

The Bills are winning because they have a great defense - #3 right now.

The offense has not been productive enough to match with what past history tells is is "sufficient" offensive productivity to sustain winning - #22 right now.  Needs to be at least middle of pack, not bottom third. 

 

Seems to me that it's totes fair to ask what needs to happen to make that so.

 

Discussion is what we do here.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Hapless Bills Fan
correct minor inaccuracy that does not impact point

[AunteEm]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:25 AM, timekills17 said:

 

I realize this will come across as homerism, or typical fan optimism trying to find good in the darkness but...

 

After some further time to consider, maybe there was more than one reason Dabes tried to pound it in three times (or five times if you include later 3rd &2 and 4th down failed attempts.)

 

Sure - maybe be it was because after they tried once, he knew that they knew we wouldn't try again. And then the third time, no WAY we'd try again.

But I don't believe that (trying to out think the Redskins defense) was the reason.

 

I think it was actually BECAUSE we knew that's their (Redskins') strength. We were stressed as fans because we've seen these games go south too quickly. But if you're a non-emotional observer, besides running for a bunch of yards in the first half, this game was never in doubt. 

 

This was an opportunity to evaluate his offensive line in a couple of groupings in a game and time where it wasn't IMPERATIVE that we score/make the first down. It did eventually show what most people assume works actually worked - the QB sneak with a 250 lb 6'5" QB. He called it when we had to have it, and we got it.

 

Additionally, it sure fooled the Skins on the play with Motor. After pounding our way up the middle multiple times throughout the game, and running JA, that half second delay in the read before he gave it to Singletary got everyone going the wrong way for his TD scamper.

 

Again - I readily admit I'm probably reaching. But these guys, regardless of our opinion, aren't idiots. This was a chance to evaluate that you never get in practice, and prepare for when you REALLY need it.

I agree with this surmise as its the perfect way to get the team to the point where they can run any play they want and make the other team responsible for stopping them.  Currently our guys don't have the basic plays they want fully mastered, only way you master them is by practicing them. In the midst of a live meaningful game is where you know the defense will be focused on stopping you moreso than in your practice sessions where some of the familiarity masks some of the ability to judge the mastery you have achieved. Our defense is good so practicing 0lays against it does hone the skill of executing the play but  when you work on those same plays against different defenses of teams we play gives the team film to add in wrinkles based on what the other team does. Our offense with all the new pieces is just leatning to walk together and are gonna stumble here and there as they learn to navigate the various defensive counters.  Yes all the players have years of learning to play against various defensive alignments but a solid team needs to learn to all be on the same page which takes time and repetitions to achieve mastery of plays that this team wishes to run. Once they get a larger collection of plays where their execution is second nature then we will start to dominate and dictate other teams like the 90s Bills used to do with the no huddle, and what the top teams in the league do each year.  It gets easier once you have the same players year in year out which is why teams like the Pats continue to play well year to year they arent swapping out numerous pieces so they changes dont effect the execution as drastically as a totally revamped 9 of 11 players on our offense.

 

Everyone that can walk today without having to even give it a concious thought on how to take their next step started off as toddlers that had to learn to get their legs under them and learn what balance was needed to first remain upright then to actually take steps to go where they wanted to go. It doesn't happen without bumps and bruises along the way. Even after mastered there will be occasional trips when an unexpected obstacle pops up. 

 

I see alot of posters lamenting we will need to draft a stud running back in early in the next draft. I'm not sure we will need to.  We have Christian Wade on our PS as the running back in training that will compliment Singletary and any other rb we have on nect years roster be it Gore or some other vet who may look at the Bills as a team that gives solid reps to players who put in the effort.  So what if that means the divas don't wanna play here (aka AB). I rather have a player like Gore that still wants to play and has goals he is working to achieve.  You know they are showing up to work each day. And if Wade is making strides on our PS we have the added benefit of his development came with the same players that remain on the team next year when he's added.  My expectations are we will be talking about Singletary/Wade in next years posts as the newest weapons the other 31 teams will have nightmares gameplanning for.   

 

Just think of that. If Wade develops, is a 'process' guy and is already in sync with teammates of which he is already a part of just not eligible to play till next year. Talk about a tandem of tbs with different styles and what could be that each dominates in his particular style. Then add in that the athletic QB who is a solid runner who's now learned to avoid the big hits knowing he just has to be part of the team not to be the team.  He will only need to run on what we hope will be the few times the more stable OL will allow the pocket to collapse (Other teams have players who will make plays even if your a well-oiled unit.  Kelsey used to give Brady fits at times, and he was no Bruce. This same QB can make any throw from the pocket (I know currently a work in progress. He has significantly improved on his short-intermidiate throws. He'll regain his long ball as they spend more time practicing it.  For all we know he has it and they are just putting misses on tape to lull other teams into less prep in defending the long ball.  Doesn't mean the other team loses the ability to make a play just gives you the surprise element that could cause the opponent to start to question and now they can't just play their game).  How many games lately in the NFL have been won on a HAIL MARY throw.  I would wager to guess more games have been won with dink dunk the short/int and run out the clock once you have a lead that your defense is capable ofdefebding without having to play 'hero' ball. Games can and have been lost by a solid defense as we have that may try too hard to make the game saving play but it turns into points for other team.  Everyone is quick to blame Josh if he's not winning the games as an Arrived FQb.  He's 11-7 as the starter and 5 of those losses came last year when he had no weapons but his running (surprised many) and willingness to put the team on his back. With a better supporting cast (still work in progress) he's dropped losses to 2 from 5. Or rather the way I prefer to think about it is the Team dropped their losses to 2 from 5 with Allen being a part of the teams success as the defense and offense work together. If they both aren't firing on all cylinders in a game they have been good about the risk management of 'hero ball' by either josh or the defense. As both learn to turn on/off the light switch on the 'hero ball' then they will have Arrived as a team to be reckoned with. Josh will be the FQb but there will be plenty of Franchise level players that all in turn buy into being Buffalo Bills. When you have everyone pulling in the same direction thats an awfully tough load to stop as its churning its way towards you (I'm looking at you Pats). And then will run over them again when we remember we backed into the playoffs the previous trip through.

Which will find us at the Fifth SB in franchise history and their first W. 

Thats my story of the Bills future and I'm sticking with it.  You can agree or disagree on this scenario but you can't tell me I can't billieve this will happen. And the more a vision is shared and billieved in the easier it is to achieve. So I care less about what media or even fellow long suffering fans billieve its only important what this collection of players and their coaches billieve. That is what is entertaining to watch the process of their evolving into a team not a collection of stat mongering divas.  You don't see Gore crying he didn't get more touches to further his claim over Barry Sanders on the all time rushing list. But I'll bet you the team happily help him get those yards easily in a game where they need to run out the clock and the other team is playing mistake prone 'hero ball'. 

[Malazan]

I love Eric Wood, but Peyton Manning told the Jets that Gase is an offensive genius. Player don't always know what's right. 

 

That said, I think Daboll is a creative guy who could be really good, but I feel like he's been a bit too creative at times this season. Everyone was calling to run singletary..he did (until the goal line at least) and they had a huge day running the ball. If the Bills had more games like that this season, they'd be a "threat" running the ball and that would certainly make Allen's task easier when defenses have to respect the run.

[GunnerBill]

31 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh my!  "Posted here for Rats to feed on"?  Look, hyperbole is one thing but at least get your facts straight.  You are obviously posting without actually doing any research on Daboll, as a quick trip to Wiki or to Pro-football-reference would have set you straight.  I will leave it to the reader to decide if Daboll's record is good or bad.  I think the best that can be said is that he has been OC for some bad teams with marginal to bad QB'ing and he generally hasn't made things better. 

 

Factual corrections to your Daboll Resume:

 

Daboll's positions with NE*** were "defensive assistant" "WR coach" "assistant coach" and "TE coach".  He spent two stints with NE*** 2000-2006 and 2013-2016. 

 

The Patriots*** won 5 SB during those stints, not one.

 

Daboll was never the OC with NE.  It's unknown how much he had to do with drawing up plays for them.  Belicheck**** and McDaniels*** both have reputations for keeping things close to their vests as coaches/coordinators.

 

Daboll moved on from NE after the 2006 season, the season when Josh McDaniels was officially promoted from QB coach to Offensive Coordinator.

He took a position as QB coach for the NYJ (2007-2008)
 

He then accepted positions as OC for Eric Mangini in Cleveland (2009-2010), for Todd Bowles in Miami (2011) and for Romeo Crennel in Kansas City (2012)

In each case he was relieved of his responsibilities as part of a HC change.

 

Offensive rank  on points (W-L record) [QB] before and after Daboll

Browns

2008 (before): 30 (4-12) [Derek Anderson]

2009: 29 (5-11) [Brady Quinn, Derek Anderson]

2010: 31 (5-11) [Colt McCoy, Jake Delhomme age 35, Seneca Wallace]  Colt McCoy drafted 3rd round, rookie

2011 (after): 30 (4-12) [Colt McCoy, Seneca Wallace]

 

Miami

2010 (before): 30 (7-9) [Chad Henne]

2011: 20 (6-10) [Matt Moore]

2012 (after): 27 (7-9) [drafted Ryan Tannehill]

 

Kansas City

2011 (before): 31 (7-9) [Matt Cassell]

2012: 32 (2-14) [Matt Cassell]

2013 (after): 6 (11-5) [Andy Reid released Matt Cassel and traded a 2nd round pick for Alex Smith]

 

After KC Daboll returned to NE for 4 years (assistant coach, then TE coach).  It is a positive for him that Belicheck had him back.

 

Buffalo Bills

2016 (before): 10 (7-9) [Tyrod Taylor]

2017 (before): 22 (9-7) [Tyrod Taylor]

2018: 30 (6-10) [Nate Peterman, Josh Allen, Derek Anderson, Matt Barkley]

2019: 22 (ongoing) [Josh Allen]

 

I have not seen Rats feeding anywhere on TBD.  Trolls, yes.  Crusaders, yes.  Campaigners, yes.  Idio...I mean, people with mistaken views awaiting enlightenment, H*** Yes!.

 

 

 

The Bills are winning because they have a great defense - #3 right now.

The offense has not been productive enough to match with what past history tells is is "sufficient" offensive productivity to sustain winning - #22 right now.  Needs to be at least middle of pack, not bottom third. 

 

Seems to me that it's totes fair to ask what needs to happen to make that so.

 

Discussion is what we do here.

 

 

If we are all about the factual accuracy Tony Sparano who hired him as the Dolphins OC. Bowles was interim at the end of the season.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Agreed. When I take a step back, the real question becomes is Josh Allen an E-P quarterback? The answer is a decisive no IMO. So then the question becomes whether or not Daboll can adjust his playbook enough to work with Allen's strengths and minimize his weaknesses. I don't know the answer, but I think that's the question. So far this season, the results just haven't been there. It's within the realm of possibility that the real problem is that Daboll and JA just don't mesh. We'll see what happens.

 

Say more about this, because I'm not sure what you mean by "Josh Allen is decisively not an EP QB".  Explain, please?

 

Let me frame my question by giving what I understand about the E-P system. 

1) in its inception from the 1970s, it was a smash-mouth, run-first system which traditionally used the run to set up the pass via play action.  Bill Parcells and Charlie Weis were early NFL users. 

2) over the years under Erhardt himself and under OCs such as Kevin Gilbride with the Giants, it became modified and is no longer operated as a run-first system. 

3) Fundamentally at this point, it's not a method of attack; it's a method of describing the plays and allowing the players to learn the scheme.  Cover1 has a good article on the EP system as Daboll runs it here.

 

Over to you, LSHMEAB.

 

 

 

[dave mcbride]

3 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Pretty sure he played in the Philly game where he had 3 carries for 19 yds. at 6.3 a carry. Seemed pretty healthy and under utilized to me.

He gained 16 yards on a rushing play on the final play of the game when they were down 31-13. The stat line is not indicative of anything. 

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the Iggles game was a case of Daboll off in an ivory tower meticulously analyzing the opponent and failing to glance at a meteorology report

In principle, a pass-heavy game exploited the Iggles defensive weakness.  In practice, it was a dumb plan for a wet, gusty, extremely windy day.

 

 

I hope you're right. 

 

 

They were also getting stoned early on in the run game, so factor that in. It was immediately clear that they couldn't block Fletcher Cox, who was eating the Bills' interior o-line alive. 

[Big Turk]

The problem many times is we don't know what is actually supposed to happen on a play...we don't know the first read, what the play is supposed to target, when the ball should be thrown, etc.

 

Now a former player would have a better idea of what is going on so if he is saying something god about the creativity and playcalling then im going to default to him.

[Figster]

13 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I defended Daboll earlier for his overall performance but he should be ripped for repeatedly running Allen. That is only thing he has done that is STUPID and should never be done except for situations where we need the yards for a chance to win.

Do you know what makes Lamar Jackson and the O he operates so dangerous and so hard to stop? Josh Allen has the same skill set with a bigger cannon mounted on his shoulder. Allen just needs to practice carrying and protecting the football like a RB. 

 

Working out with Gore as Hapless suggested perhaps...

 

...oh, and practice slidding...

 

Note this: The New Era power forward / QB is on full display in New Era field and throughout the NFL. Even B B HC of the Patriots is going to be losing sleep at night thinking I want one of these.

 

Can you stop me now... 

Edited November 7, 2019 by Figster

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He gained 16 yards on a rushing play on the final play of the game when they were down 31-13. The stat line is not indicative of anything. 

They were also getting stoned early on in the run game, so factor that in. It was immediately clear that they couldn't block Fletcher Cox, who was eating the Bills' interior o-line alive. 

 

Absolutely 100% this. 

[Comebackkid]

On 11/6/2019 at 4:28 AM, Dopey said:

Refresh my memory, did we score a td on that drive?

And after that... 4th down. Did we again go back to trying to pound the ball up the middle resulting the same as the previous  3 tries and a loss of downs.   Remember the definition of insanity?