Daboll is an excellent play caller

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

On 11/7/2019 at 8:34 PM, WideNine said:

 

Roman could teach Allen the read option. Allen is not LJax, but he has enough skills Roman would find a way to use him. The read option offense is one of the easier offenses to execute and simplifies reads.

 

From what I have seen and heard Daboll's offense is almost the exact opposite. Complex and requiring a lot of processing from the QB.

 

I think he is a pretty good coordinator when it comes to tailoring talent to roles. LJax is in a good situation there and what they have him doing is obviously working so I don't think there is any other measuring stick that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't trust Roman to teach Allen how to be a QB. But I would love his run designs here right now. Best by far with that. 

[WideNine]

55 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

 

I wouldn't trust Roman to teach Allen how to be a QB. But I would love his run designs here right now. Best by far with that. 

 

Was more a response regarding Allen's ability to learn the read-option (or read option/veer more apt). It is often used in high schools and college offenses with athletic QBs as it is a simpler concept to teach and execute with limited reads. I had no doubt Allen could run it, and there are times Daboll has used similar concepts with a few of Allen's red zone runs.

 

Was not endorsing the Bills to adopt it, but I like how creative Roman can be with that scheme...gave Belicheat a migraine. I think in the long run Allen will be better served learning to play from the pocket.

[SJDK]

On 11/6/2019 at 2:14 AM, stuvian said:

running Gore 3 x in a row on the goal line was real innovative

What would you have said if we passed one or two of those downs? Lynch in the Super Bowl. That’s all

[Luka]

Eric Wood is a mouthpiece for the Bills organization. Did you really expect him to trash Daboll? As Steve Young would say, c'mon man. 

 

Daboll is predictable because he has too many personnel groupings, too many niche roles. You watch enough film and he has a lot of "tells" as to what he's going to call depending on who's on the field and the situation the offense is in. And when he attempts to break these tendencies, you end up with some of those strange plays that go no where because he doesn't have the correct grouping on the field.

 

What I'm hoping to see as the season wears on is Singletary being used almost exclusively in the backfield. I think that really cures the issue I illustrated above. He's an all around back and a threat to score whether he's catching the ball or receiving a hand off. RPO should also be something that Daboll calls more. While we don't want Josh to run, the bottom line is that defenses absolutely have to respect his ability to run. That red zone touchdown Singletary scored in the Redskins game showed how hard a defense has to freeze when you have two guys that can run effectively.

 

With Kroft healthy I'd also like to see 12 personnel used more frequently. Only 30 pass plays called this year in 12 personnel. Knox and Kroft on the field at the same time gives the offense some versatility as I believe both are athletic enough to split out wide and Knox is a great blocker. This would also be a good grouping for some hurry up, which has also been ignored this season for the most part.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Luka

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Luka said:

Eric Wood is a mouthpiece for the Bills organization. Did you really expect him to trash Daboll? As Steve Young would say, c'mon man. 

 

Daboll is predictable because he has too many personnel groupings, too many niche roles. You watch enough film and he has a lot of "tells" as to what he's going to call depending on who's on the field and the situation the offense is in. And when he attempts to break these tendencies, you end up with some of those strange plays that go no where because he doesn't have the correct grouping on the field.

 

What I'm hoping to see as the season wears on is Singletary being used almost exclusively in the backfield. I think that really cures the issue I illustrated above. He's an all around back and a threat to score whether he's catching the ball or receiving a hand off. RPO should also be something that Daboll calls more. While we don't want Josh to run, the bottom line is that defenses absolutely have to respect his ability to run. That red zone touchdown Singletary scored in the Redskins game showed how hard a defense has to freeze when you have two guys that can run effectively.

 

With Kroft healthy I'd also like to see 12 personnel used more frequently. Only 30 pass plays called this year in 12 personnel. Knox and Kroft on the field at the same time gives the offense some versatility as I believe both are athletic enough to split out wide and Knox is a great blocker. With the versatility and athleticism at the tight end formation, this would also be a good grouping for some hurry up, which has also been ignored this season for the most part.

 

I think there's some good insight here. 

 

I read somewhere that the Bills run out of shotgun a very low (maybe league low?) percentage of the time.  I believe there are gaps in our self- scouting and at this point, 8 games in, we have definite tendencies where the D says "these players on the field, gonna be one of these plays".   We have, as you say, "tells".

 

In Daboll's defense, part of that is as you say, limitations on the personnel we have being one-dimensional.  We have recently seen some successful plays like a very nice slant route completion to McKensie.  It caught the D napping because they weren't expecting McKensie to be used as a WR.  If Kroft and Knox can be successful as both blockers and pass threats, and if Singletary is both a run and a pass-reception threat, it will help Daboll a lot in the 2nd half of the season.

 

I could be off base because I'm not a former coach, but I do tend to believe that Daboll could probably overcome some of the "tells" in our personnel with different play choice.  But maybe I'm wrong.

[Luka]

34 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there's some good insight here. 

 

I read somewhere that the Bills run out of shotgun a very low (maybe league low?) percentage of the time.  I believe there are gaps in our self- scouting and at this point, 8 games in, we have definite tendencies where the D says "these players on the field, gonna be one of these plays".   We have, as you say, "tells".

 

In Daboll's defense, part of that is as you say, limitations on the personnel we have being one-dimensional.  We have recently seen some successful plays like a very nice slant route completion to McKensie.  It caught the D napping because they weren't expecting McKensie to be used as a WR.  If Kroft and Knox can be successful as both blockers and pass threats, and if Singletary is both a run and a pass-reception threat, it will help Daboll a lot in the 2nd half of the season.

 

I could be off base because I'm not a former coach, but I do tend to believe that Daboll could probably overcome some of the "tells" in our personnel with different play choice.  But maybe I'm wrong.

 

We're 18th in the league in attempts from shotgun but Josh is 35th in passer rating from shotgun.

 

One of the issues with shotgun is that we almost never run out of shotgun. 2nd and short (1-3 yards) for instance, we pass 75% of the time if we're in shotgun formation. 2nd and short is one of those situations where you can call almost anything and where you'd like to see your play calling be a little more creative than that. I felt like we haven't called nearly enough draws out of shotgun and looks like I was right. My guess would be this is where we try to set up screens but with that kind of tendency you have defenses keying off. 3rd and short again, 64% of the time. Not as bad as second down but you are trending towards an obvious play call for the defense. Surprisingly, things are a bit more balanced on 2nd and 3rd and medium (4-7 yards) but then you look at 1st and 10. 99 play calls from shotgun, by far the most in any given situation, with 73% of those play calls being a pass. So again, really telegraphing to the defense what we're trying to do.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Luka said:

We're 18th in the league in attempts from shotgun but Josh is 35th in passer rating from shotgun.

 

One of the issues with shotgun is that we almost never run out of shotgun. 2nd and short (1-3 yards) for instance, we pass 75% of the time if we're in shotgun formation. 2nd and short is one of those situations where you can call almost anything and where you'd like to see your play calling be a little more creative than that. I felt like we haven't called nearly enough draws out of shotgun and looks like I was right. My guess would be this is where we try to set up screens but with that kind of tendency you have defenses keying off. 3rd and short again, 64% of the time. Not as bad as second down but you are trending towards an obvious play call for the defense. Surprisingly, things are a bit more balanced on 2nd and 3rd and medium (4-7 yards) but then you look at 1st and 10. 99 play calls from shotgun, by far the most in any given situation, with 73% of those play calls being a pass. So again, really telegraphing to the defense what we're trying to do.

 

Luka, what is your source of these stats?  I'm interested and would like to poke around.  (if it's a fee-for-service, Nevah Mind though)

 

It's confirming my visual perception and the stats I've heard media toss around. 

 

It seems to me that the problem isn't the use of shotgun - it has its features - but the overwhelming lack of balance in the play calls from shotgun.  The D knows we're gonna pass and they tee off.  Add in the "tell" of the personnel on the field and it's putting the offense in a handicap.

 

Can we just not run effectively from shotgun?

[Luka]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Luka, what is your source of these stats?  I'm interested and would like to poke around.  (if it's a fee-for-service, Nevah Mind though)

 

It's confirming my visual perception and the stats I've heard media toss around. 

 

It seems to me that the problem isn't the use of shotgun - it has its features - but the overwhelming lack of balance in the play calls from shotgun.  The D knows we're gonna pass and they tee off.  Add in the "tell" of the personnel on the field and it's putting the offense in a handicap.

 

Can we just not run effectively from shotgun?

 

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com

Looks like they are a week or 2 behind on some stats but it's a good reference none the less.

 

On that site we're ranked 3 in rush success rate. We're varied in where runs go. I'm not sure what Daboll's reluctance is to run out of shotgun.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

https://www.sharpfootballstats.com

Looks like they are a week or 2 behind on some stats but it's a good reference none the less.

 

On that site we're ranked 3 in rush success rate. We're varied in where runs go. I'm not sure what Daboll's reluctance is to run out of shotgun.

 

Luka, is that "rush success rate" from the Shotgun, or overall?  If the latter, does it give break down rush success rate from shotgun?

[Luka]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Luka, is that "rush success rate" from the Shotgun, or overall?  If the latter, does it give break down rush success rate from shotgun?

 Overall. Haven't come across run success by formation yet, I just started combing that site a day or two ago because I often get trashed for calling Daboll into question. I've been on the hunt for some stats to back up what my eyes have been seeing all year.  There are some other sites too, but don't seem to offer as in depth stats as that site for free. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Luka

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Luka said:

 Overall. Haven't come across run success by formation yet, I just started combing that site a day or two ago because I often get trashed for calling Daboll into question. I've been on the hunt for some stats to back up what my eyes have been seeing all year.  There are some other sites too, but don't seem to offer as in depth stats as that site for free. 

 

Someone up-thread brought up trashing some past OCs - Gilbride I think when he was here, and also criticizing Martz? though I don't think he was ever in B'lo.

 

To me that is absolutely on-point.  Gilbride and Coughlin both said that he benefited by being given over-arching guidance by Coughlin, else he got too pass-heavy.  As a St Louis Rams watcher (though not a fan), Martz benefited by working under Vermeil and having some of his tendencies checked.

 

That's kind of where I am with Daboll.  I see him as crafting well-designed and creative plays at times.  I also feel McDermott has been very "hands off" with him and that he does or would benefit from some constructive oversight, someone who can say "look, this is a matter of record in the league, we are known overwhelmingly do *this* from this formation or personnel group, as a DC I would key off on that, you got to change it up"  or (this was a Martz thing) "look, we just don't have the OL hosses to hold protection for 4 seconds against every D in the league, you need to mix it up the passing game with some quick hits and more rushes, you're getting our QB killed"

[Figster]

42 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Someone up-thread brought up trashing some past OCs - Gilbride I think when he was here, and also criticizing Martz? though I don't think he was ever in B'lo.

 

To me that is absolutely on-point.  Gilbride and Coughlin both said that he benefited by being given over-arching guidance by Coughlin, else he got too pass-heavy.  As a St Louis Rams watcher (though not a fan), Martz benefited by working under Vermeil and having some of his tendencies checked.

 

That's kind of where I am with Daboll.  I see him as crafting well-designed and creative plays at times.  I also feel McDermott has been very "hands off" with him and that he does or would benefit from some constructive oversight, someone who can say "look, this is a matter of record in the league, we are known overwhelmingly do *this* from this formation or personnel group, as a DC I would key off on that, you got to change it up"  or (this was a Martz thing) "look, we just don't have the OL hosses to hold protection for 4 seconds against every D in the league, you need to mix it up the passing game with some quick hits and more rushes, you're getting our QB killed"

Opposition game plans known tendencies so it makes sense to take under consideration when game planning or play calling IMO. Even when a tendency continues to have good results. I think part of Buffalo's problem is still not executing some plays at a high enough level to get a good indicator. Young QB early in development along with many new faces still acclimating to the system all go into play. It takes time to gel, to know a players tendencies.  Allen, Brown and Beasley are building good chemistry every week.

 

The team is a work in progress , especially on O. Although still in all likelihood a few players away from challenging for a Championship.

 

The future looks very bright for the Buffalo Bills in my humble opinion.  

Edited November 9, 2019 by Figster

[Luka]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Someone up-thread brought up trashing some past OCs - Gilbride I think when he was here, and also criticizing Martz? though I don't think he was ever in B'lo.

 

To me that is absolutely on-point.  Gilbride and Coughlin both said that he benefited by being given over-arching guidance by Coughlin, else he got too pass-heavy.  As a St Louis Rams watcher (though not a fan), Martz benefited by working under Vermeil and having some of his tendencies checked.

 

That's kind of where I am with Daboll.  I see him as crafting well-designed and creative plays at times.  I also feel McDermott has been very "hands off" with him and that he does or would benefit from some constructive oversight, someone who can say "look, this is a matter of record in the league, we are known overwhelmingly do *this* from this formation or personnel group, as a DC I would key off on that, you got to change it up"  or (this was a Martz thing) "look, we just don't have the OL hosses to hold protection for 4 seconds against every D in the league, you need to mix it up the passing game with some quick hits and more rushes, you're getting our QB killed"

 

I'd be curious to know if McDermott had any input for last week's game plan. Definitely ran the ball more than we have all season. It would be good for him to do exactly as you described, kind of act as a moderator. He does it with Frazier on defense.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I'm not a fan of Daboll at all, the QB option plays when you have Singletary/Gore are just head scratching. Maybe it worked last year or in the beginning of the year but it seems we use it every single game and every single game Allen fumbles the ball away in a key moment. Why does it seem like this team doesn't even know what a screen pass is. it may be just me or it's just my A.D.D. kicking in but I see all the legit teams that I believe are playoff teams do these nice design screen passes, where is that sweet design screen to our play makers? I wasn't a huge Daboll fan when we signed him. I just want a guy with an exciting offense, it doesn't have to be record breaking but do you think for 1 second Brian Daboll would have ever in his right mind thought of the Philly (Of course it would be the Billy special in our case) special against the New England Patriots in the SB? I think he'd have been so out classed and you saw it against NE earlier in the season.

[CircleTheWagons99]

Daboll is a joke, 3 touches for Devin in the first half. Genius..... 

[CEN-CAL17]

I’m just tired of every pass route concept being 10-15 yards down the field. We have quick shifty guys. Get them the ball quicker.

 

On the opposite end, Josh has to complete a deep ball this year....

3 minutes ago, CircleTheWagons99 said:

Daboll is a joke, 3 touches for Devin in the first half. Genius..... 

Yeah that’s bad... and Beasley didn’t get a single target until the last drive.

[Playoffs?]

I’m done with Daboll.  But that’s just me..

[CEN-CAL17]

1 minute ago, Playoffs? said:

I’m done with Daboll.  But that’s just me..

I’m wondering if Dorsey has the ability to call a good game.

[BringBackOrton]

10 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

I’m just tired of every pass route concept being 10-15 yards down the field. We have quick shifty guys. Get them the ball quicker.

 

On the opposite end, Josh has to complete a deep ball this year....

Yeah that’s bad... and Beasley didn’t get a single target until the last drive.

It’s not Daboll’s fault when Allen misses Beasley being open.

[CEN-CAL17]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

It’s not Daboll’s fault when Allen misses Beasley being open.

Beasley is open now, always within 2-3 seconds, within 3-4 yards. He should be the first read. Plays specifically for him. That’s my point. Allen couldn’t miss his read. That’s how Edelman get his. Those plays, routes and concepts are designed to get him the ball.