Daboll is an excellent play caller

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

He gained 16 yards on a rushing play on the final play of the game when they were down 31-13. The stat line is not indicative of anything. 

They were also getting stoned early on in the run game, so factor that in. It was immediately clear that they couldn't block Fletcher Cox, who was eating the Bills' interior o-line alive. 

 

They were certainly getting eaten alive by Cox, but that does leave potential vulnerabilities, Not?

 

The point would remain that Singletary did not see his number called  much vs Iggles, for whatever reason.   He was targeted 6x in the pass game with 4 receptions for 30 yds, primarily on the one 28 yd TD play which made the score 17-13.  This says to me the Bills were trying to get him the ball in space but either on the wrong plays or it flat out wasn't working.

 

1 hour ago, Figster said:

Do you know what makes Lamar Jackson and the O he operates so dangerous and so hard to stop? Josh Allen has the same skill set with a bigger cannon mounted on his shoulder. Allen just needs to practice carrying and protecting the football like a RB. 

 

I'm actually unclear that Allen has the same skill set as Lamar Jackson.  Allen is a big guy and can make people miss and avoid going down.  He has some speed and has shown he can juke and can make people miss in the NFL, but he doesn't have RB-like speed or elusiveness/cutting ability that Jackson possesses.

 

The pundits who wanted to make LJax into a RB or WR were saying it because LJax legit has NFL-level qualities in these regards.  I don't think that's true of Allen.  He's dangerous as a runner but in a different way, less elusive and more power/hard to bring down.

 

 

[Figster]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They were certainly getting eaten alive by Cox, but that does leave potential vulnerabilities, Not?

 

The point would remain that Singletary did not see his number called  much vs Iggles, for whatever reason.   He was targeted 6x in the pass game with 4 receptions for 30 yds, primarily on the one 28 yd TD play which made the score 17-13.  This says to me the Bills were trying to get him the ball in space but either on the wrong plays or it flat out wasn't working.

 

 

I'm actually unclear that Allen has the same skill set as Lamar Jackson.  Allen is a big guy and can make people miss and avoid going down.  He has some speed and has shown he can juke and can make people miss in the NFL, but he doesn't have RB-like speed or elusiveness/cutting ability that Jackson possesses.

 

The pundits who wanted to make LJax into a RB or WR were saying it because LJax legit has NFL-level qualities in these regards.  I don't think that's true of Allen.  He's dangerous as a runner but in a different way, less elusive and more power/hard to bring down.

 

 

I would compare Allens running style more in line with Cam Newton.

 

My point is Allens running ability has to be respected enough to help open up the rest of the O.

 

Similar skill set is probably poor choice of words

 

Here comes the snow...

Edited November 7, 2019 by Figster

[dave mcbride]

6 minutes ago, Figster said:

I would compare Allens running style more in line with Cam Newton.

 

My point is Allens running ability has to be respected enough to help open up the rest of the O.

 

Here comes the snow...

Newton is an excellent comparison. They have pretty similar games. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Figster said:

I would compare Allens running style more in line with Cam Newton.

 

My point is Allens running ability has to be respected enough to help open up the rest of the O.

 

Here comes the snow...

 

I agree with your point about Allen's running ability needing to be respected, and that the Bills should work on strengthening Allen's grip as a ball carrier vs. abandoning running him because of risk/fumbling. 

My point was just that I'm not clear that Allen  has enough of the same skill set as LJax to make what the Ravens are doing on offense a success.

[Figster]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with your point about Allen's running ability needing to be respected, and that the Bills should work on strengthening Allen's grip as a ball carrier vs. abandoning running him because of risk/fumbling. 

My point was just that I'm not clear that Allen  has enough of the same skill set as LJax to make what the Ravens are doing on offense a success.

Absolutely on holding onto the football. I do however think Allens running ability when called upon can win football games. Something perhaps better conserved/ more used in the playoffs. 

 

Lamar Jackson is somewhat unique.

 

So is Allen IMO...

Edited November 7, 2019 by Figster

[Nihilarian]

While Lamar Jackson (6'2'' 212) is currently tearing it up as he is the teams leading rusher too along with almost 2000 passing yards 12 TDs, 5 INTs.  The 2019 Ravens are 6-2 with the #1 offense in the NFL in points, #2 in yards. 

 

But, didn't we see this sorta thing with RG3 (6'2'' 213)and the 2012 Washington Redskins and he was the rage of the NFL...until he was injured. Guess who is backing up Jackson at Baltimore? Yea, RG3. 

 

I'm not wishing anything on anyone. Just saying I don't think its a smart move to have your teams starting QB to run so much...ask Cam Newton. 

[Figster]

2 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

While Lamar Jackson (6'2'' 212) is currently tearing it up as he is the teams leading rusher too along with almost 2000 passing yards 12 TDs, 5 INTs.  The 2019 Ravens are 6-2 with the #1 offense in the NFL in points, #2 in yards. 

 

But, didn't we see this sorta thing with RG3 (6'2'' 213)and the 2012 Washington Redskins and he was the rage of the NFL...until he was injured. Guess who is backing up Jackson at Baltimore? Yea, RG3. 

 

I'm not wishing anything on anyone. Just saying I don't think its a smart move to have your teams starting QB to run so much...ask Cam Newton. 

Good point on the wear and tear and the hits will start adding up, Cams a good example.

 

Of course after Newton ripped a new A hole into the league breaking many records running the football from the QB position. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

5 hours ago, london_bills said:

If Allen doesn't fumble and slides then maybe they are good calls? Dabolls not fumbling the ball.

 

They scored and got 1st downs with these plays alot. Do they emphasise not fumbling with Allen and continue to run some or do they abandon his runs because he has fumbled. 

At this point we know Allen is likely to fumble and more importantly go hard at the defense- which I overall love- but you do not call running plays for your QB in the NFL unless you are not concerned about him getting hurt.

[Figster]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

At this point we know Allen is likely to fumble and more importantly go hard at the defense- which I overall love- but you do not call running plays for your QB in the NFL unless you are not concerned about him getting hurt.

We see smart QB's/ runners slide before contact and should concentrate more on teaching Allen to avoid contact when he chooses to run IMO.

 

I also think hitting a QB thats down should be more severe of penality to a defender like automatic ejection and 2 game suspension,

 

Send a message...

[1st&ten]

I guess I'll have a better opinion on Daboll after the whole season. My biggest complaint right now is being in the red zone & then going backwards.

 

• I had the word bitc*** in my original post but it was changed in the sentence to the B word with no acknowledgement that my words were edited & it was not my original words. Weird---if your going to censorship things, shouldn't it be noted ?

Edited November 7, 2019 by 1st&ten

[Locomark]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:20 AM, Olympus said:

Your posts are refreshingly reasonable and I appreciate your contribution to this board. We're all here to discuss Buffalo Bills football and not the validity of each other's passion. I genuinely believe that the people that are mad at Dabol running Gore 3 straight times at the 1 yard line, are the same people that got mad at Dabol for being "too cute" on the 2 yard line the drive before. When we got to the 1-yard line after the catch from Knox, I said out loud while watching, "Just run the ball with Frank until its a touchdown or 4th down.". That genuinely made the most sense to me, and even sitting here with the hindsight of the results, I STILL think it was the right decision. Frank Gore is a savy vet who's a power runner with as good of ball security as we could ask for.

 

 

Oh, and we have the highest offensive red zone efficiency in the NFL halfway through the season. That's near impossible to do with bad playcalling imo.

It is a combo of play calling and talent but let’s be perfectly clear that he has some flawed designs. When he calls plays with one read and then the 2nd read is to throw it into the ground, that’s a bad play design. When you call QB draws into the teeth of LBs with a kid that doesn’t slide, that’s a bad play design. This guy is too cute.  Play calling is an art form. Not very play works, but every play needs enough variability so it can work if different defenses present themselves.  Josh is a smart kid so I don’t think it his lack of audibles. It the design on some of the calls that is flawed or that Daboll hasn’t provided an out in the form of an audible. 

 

For a positive instance, the jet sweep package looks great. It plays into our strengths of pulling lineman, misdirection, and a super quick McKenzie. Now the next wrinkle should be throwing out of it. 

[GunnerBill]

10 minutes ago, Locomark said:

It is a combo of play calling and talent but let’s be perfectly clear that he has some flawed designs. When he calls plays with one read and then the 2nd read is to throw it into the ground, that’s a bad play design. When you call QB draws into the teeth of LBs with a kid that doesn’t slide, that’s a bad play design. This guy is too cute.  Play calling is an art form. Not very play works, but every play needs enough variability so it can work if different defenses present themselves.  Josh is a smart kid so I don’t think it his lack of audibles. It the design on some of the calls that is flawed or that Daboll hasn’t provided an out in the form of an audible. 

 

For a positive instance, the jet sweep package looks great. It plays into our strengths of pulling lineman, misdirection, and a super quick McKenzie. Now the next wrinkle should be throwing out of it. 

 

I don't think there are any plays in the playbook that are one read then throw away. 

[Lazy]

On 11/6/2019 at 7:25 AM, timekills17 said:

 

I realize this will come across as homerism, or typical fan optimism trying to find good in the darkness but...

 

After some further time to consider, maybe there was more than one reason Dabes tried to pound it in three times (or five times if you include later 3rd &2 and 4th down failed attempts.)

 

Sure - maybe be it was because after they tried once, he knew that they knew we wouldn't try again. And then the third time, no WAY we'd try again.

But I don't believe that (trying to out think the Redskins defense) was the reason.

 

I think it was actually BECAUSE we knew that's their (Redskins') strength. We were stressed as fans because we've seen these games go south too quickly. But if you're a non-emotional observer, besides running for a bunch of yards in the first half, this game was never in doubt. 

 

This was an opportunity to evaluate his offensive line in a couple of groupings in a game and time where it wasn't IMPERATIVE that we score/make the first down. It did eventually show what most people assume works actually worked - the QB sneak with a 250 lb 6'5" QB. He called it when we had to have it, and we got it.

 

Additionally, it sure fooled the Skins on the play with Motor. After pounding our way up the middle multiple times throughout the game, and running JA, that half second delay in the read before he gave it to Singletary got everyone going the wrong way for his TD scamper.

 

Again - I readily admit I'm probably reaching. But these guys, regardless of our opinion, aren't idiots. This was a chance to evaluate that you never get in practice, and prepare for when you REALLY need it.

This is an interesting take. 

I guess it would actually be interesting if the plan was evaluation and that would make me feel that Daboll is really trying to get a handle on any situation that comes up and who is best suited for said situations.

Or he's just obstinate and thought like the bolded.

[frostbitmic]

 

Sorry but I think my version of excellent is a little higher than yours.

[GreggTX]

At times he is very good, but if we are going to stay with Josh Allen at QB, we have to run more. We are 22nd in points scored. Greg Roman has the Ravens scoring over 30 points per game -- nearly 10 points per game more than us. They are 2nd in scoring. It doesn't matter what year it is. If you can't be stopped on the ground, there is simply no reason to pass as much as we do.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, GreggTX said:

At times he is very good, but if we are going to stay with Josh Allen at QB, we have to run more. We are 22nd in points scored. Greg Roman has the Ravens scoring over 30 points per game -- nearly 10 points per game more than us. They are 2nd in scoring. It doesn't matter what year it is. If you can't be stopped on the ground, there is simply no reason to pass as much as we do.

 

Without Singletary, we could be stopped on the ground.

[Augie]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Without Singletary, we could be stopped on the ground.

 

I am surprised by how much I currently think Singletary could be a game changer, literally. 

[WideNine]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with your point about Allen's running ability needing to be respected, and that the Bills should work on strengthening Allen's grip as a ball carrier vs. abandoning running him because of risk/fumbling. 

My point was just that I'm not clear that Allen  has enough of the same skill set as LJax to make what the Ravens are doing on offense a success.

 

Roman could teach Allen the read option. Allen is not LJax, but he has enough skills Roman would find a way to use him. The read option offense is one of the easier offenses to execute and simplifies reads.

 

From what I have seen and heard Daboll's offense is almost the exact opposite. Complex and requiring a lot of processing from the QB.

 

I think he is a pretty good coordinator when it comes to tailoring talent to roles. LJax is in a good situation there and what they have him doing is obviously working so I don't think there is any other measuring stick that matters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

Wood is still in concussion protocol if he thinks our offensive play calling is great.

[LSHMEAB]

On 11/7/2019 at 9:05 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Say more about this, because I'm not sure what you mean by "Josh Allen is decisively not an EP QB".  Explain, please?

 

Let me frame my question by giving what I understand about the E-P system. 

1) in its inception from the 1970s, it was a smash-mouth, run-first system which traditionally used the run to set up the pass via play action.  Bill Parcells and Charlie Weis were early NFL users. 

2) over the years under Erhardt himself and under OCs such as Kevin Gilbride with the Giants, it became modified and is no longer operated as a run-first system. 

3) Fundamentally at this point, it's not a method of attack; it's a method of describing the plays and allowing the players to learn the scheme.  Cover1 has a good article on the EP system as Daboll runs it here.

 

Over to you, LSHMEAB.

 

 

 

From my admittedly limited understanding of the system, it's based primarily on timing and ball placement. Again, perhaps I'm oversimplifying here, but if we're talking about the obvious one; NE, I don't think Allen fits at all. Yes, the Pats had the year with Randy Moss and they go deep on occasion. But beyond Brady, the system itself requires to QB to make quick decisions and hit receivers perfectly in stride(as I understood the system prior to reading the article.) I just don't see these as his strengths. I don't think he's ever going to reach peak Josh Allen in a system that's super structured. That's my overall point. You mention Bill Parcells and it has me thinking back to the days of Phil Simms. Very structured passing game.

 

I think he's gonna to be at his best in a system far less structured and nuanced than the one Daboll appears to run. I'd rather see Allen just out there dropping back, doing his thing, and making plays. That also sounds kind of rudimentary, but I think you get the gist of the point whether you agree or not. JMO.

 

Time will tell(ultimate post ending cliche!)

 

Edit; Upon further reflection, I actually think it's possible that his improvement in the short area accuracy could be hampering the things he does really well. He's obviously much, much better in this regard, but he seems so focused on avoiding mistakes here that he's not "playing football." I prefer the scientific explanations and this is clearly an eyeball test response, but that's the way I SEE it.

Edited November 9, 2019 by LSHMEAB