Jim Kelly (93) vs Josh Allen (19)

[BigDingus]

2015: Tyrod Taylor

 

Completion %: 67.9

Yards: 1,669

TD's: 11

INT's: 4

 

Guess he was better than Kelly & Allen

2014: Kyle Orton

Completion %: 64.2
Yards: 2,000
TD's: 13
INT's: 5

Guess he was also better than Kelly & Allen

Edited November 5, 2019 by BigDingus

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

41 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

Thanks, Shady.  I's so annoying on some of the sites I reference to track down fumbles.  I spend more time trying to look for the stat then I even care to know about it.  

My prime is pro football reference and then

 

cough ESPN 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

4 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Anytime someone compares QB stats to one from nearly 3 decades ago I know they are an idiot.

 

What should we take from this?

 

The biggest lie going around 2BD is that the passing game in the 1990's was so different that you can't compare stats from that decade to 2019.  Here's Marino's stats from his SECOND year in the league in the 1980's!

 

64% completion rate;  5084 yards;  48 TD's & only 17 INT's with 9.4yard per PASS ATTEMPT!

 

If this message board was in play back in the 1980's you would have had people screaming at the top of their lungs that the Bills had screwed up by passing on Marino to take Kelly. 

[Bangarang]

33 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

 

The biggest lie going around 2BD is that the passing game in the 1990's was so different that you can't compare stats from that decade to 2019.  Here's Marino's stats from his SECOND year in the league in the 1980's!

 

64% completion rate;  5084 yards;  48 TD's & only 17 INT's with 9.4yard per PASS ATTEMPT!

 

If this message board was in play back in the 1980's you would have had people screaming at the top of their lungs that the Bills had screwed up by passing on Marino to take Kelly. 

You managed to cherry pick one amazing player and think it proves a point?

Did you bother to look at the rest of the QB stats from that year? Other than Marino, only 1 QB had more than 28 TD passes. Only 6 had more than 20.

 

Including Marino, only 3 QBs had more than 4000 passing yards. Only 9 QBs had a completion percentage greater than 60.

 

And finally, only 4 QBs had a rating more than 90.

 

Now compare that to QBs from last year and tell me there isn’t a big difference. 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Bangarang

[MJS]

4 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Some transparency here please, here are actual stats from Jim Kelly's first 8 games in 1993

 

Jim Kelly 1993 Season								Passing
Rk		G#	Tm		Opp	Result	GS	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A
1		1	BUF		NWE	W 38-14	*	13	22	59%	167	4	1	103.6	1	10	7.59	9.18
2		2	BUF	@	DAL	W 13-10	*	16	27	59%	155	1	1	72.3	4	26	5.74	4.81
3		3	BUF		MIA	L 13-22	*	20	39	51%	199	1	2	53.3	4	23	5.1	3.31
4		4	BUF		NYG	W 17-14	*	14	25	56%	142	1	1	69.1	5	30	5.68	4.68
5		5	BUF		HOU	W 35-7	*	15	25	60%	247	3	0	132.8	2	6	9.88	12.28
6		6	BUF	@	NYJ	W 19-10	*	22	35	63%	224	0	2	57.3	1	8	6.4	3.83
7		7	BUF		WAS	W 24-10	*	18	24	75%	238	2	1	116.3	0	0	9.92	9.71
8		8	BUF	@	NWE	W 13-10	*	29	46	63%	317	1	0	90.6	2	19	6.89	7.33
	1st 8 games							147	243	60%	1689	13	8	86.9	19	122	7.2	6.9

 

Different era back then.  bills were 7-1 after 8 weeks in 1993.   Interesting note that in back half of year, 1993 Bills were 5-3 and Jim only threw 5 TDs against 10 INTs in those last 8 games.  

 

Allen also had a bye week to factor into his numbers.

[njbuff]

6 hours ago, Virgil said:

They also had Thurman and KD.  But I get your point and it’s a good one. 
 

Same when you think about Reed never had back to back 1K seasons.   
 

The Bills offense was premier yet you can’t compare them to teams two decades later.   
 

Look at the greatest show on turf.  Even those stats are consistently beaten in today’s NFL and they destroyed everyone.  I can’t remember the last time in 20 years when a teams QB, RB, and top 2 WR’s all went in the top 10 of a fantasy football draft.  It was crazy 

I know this is knit-picking, but 20 TDs is too few in today’s NFL if you don’t have the rushing attack and TDs there to support it. 
 

But if this is a trend, that’s good for year 2.  3800+ and 30+ TDs I think would be solid for year 3. 

 

Put that Bills offense of the early 90's in today's NFL world and the Bills would be multiple SB champions, not the losers of four straight SB's.

 

Thurman himself would destroy this league....... EASILY.

Edited November 6, 2019 by njbuff

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, wppete said:

 

 

 

I don't even.....Jim Kelly's stats in a different era of football, when he'd been a pro for 8 years are worth comparing to Josh Allen's 2nd year stats, why?

[RaoulDuke79]

7 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Anytime someone compares QB stats to one from nearly 3 decades ago I know they are an idiot.

 

What should we take from this?

You know what stat holds up to the test of time? Wins. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, syhuang said:

I want to see Josh Allen continue to improve and eventually be the guy. However, when I saw this tweet yesterday, I can't help but think it's a misleading comparison due to different eras.

 

in 1993, average comp%: 57.9%, average pass yard/game: 200.6, average TD/game: 1.2, average INT/game: 1.0

 

in 2019, average comp%: 64.8%, average pass yard/game: 238.5, average TD/game: 1.5, average INT/game: 0.8

 

Wait, in 2019, average pass yd/game 238.5??

 

Mind.....blown....thought 300 yd games de rigour these days.

[freddyjj]

4 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Thanks, Shady.  I's so annoying on some of the sites I reference to track down fumbles.  I spend more time trying to look for the stat then I even care to know about it.  

 

 

Freddy, I am going on Memory on the first things I mention below, and I am quite sure on the second from that year.

 

1st, without checking, I actually think the Bills might have fallen to 8-4, and then 1 the last 4 to get to 12-4.

 

2nd, and I am almost 100% sure about this because I thought I reviewed it a number of years ago...Of all the great Bills teams of the late 80s and 90s the 1993 team was the only one to finish first overall in the NFL.  There was always someone better in the NFL than our 13-3 teams of 90 and 91 and the Bengals had home field advantage in 1988 for that 12-4 team.

 

They had home field advantage in the AFC, and I believe the Cowboys were the only team in the NFC that equaled them with a 12-4 record (kind of sure on that).  However, the Bills beat the Cowboys in head to head in week two.

I believe you are correct on both points.  Bills scored.less than 20 pts in 10 games and went 6-4 in those.  Top 10 in scoring offense and defense that year. 

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Allen also had a bye week to factor into his numbers.

The stats for both reflect first 8 games of respective season. 

[Mr. WEO]

Yeah, but, what do you want us to do about it?

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Forecast:

 

60.9 comp %

3306 passing yds

20TDs

14ints

494 rushing yds

8 rushing TDs

 

That's not a bad 2nd year for a QB

 

Considering that he hasn't thrown an INT in 3 games, I hope he doesn't end up throwing 14 for the season.

[BigDingus]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't even.....Jim Kelly's stats in a different era of football, when he'd been a pro for 8 years are worth comparing to Josh Allen's 2nd year stats, why?

 

Not to mention it's showing Jim's stats through 6 games & Josh's stats through 8 games...

[Mango]

9 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

Tainted Tom only has 14 TD's thus far this year and 5 INT's 

Lamar Jackson has 12 TD's thus far this year and 5 INT's 

Jimmy Porn Star G  has 13 TD's thus far this year and 7 INT's 

Josh Allen has 10 TD's thus far this year and 7 INT's 

 

edit

Jarred Goff has 11 TD's thus far this year and7 INT's 

Brady- The Pats have scored 30 or more in 6 of their 9 games. 16 against Buffalo. 27 against Cleveland. 20 against Baltimore. They’ve absolutely routed teams and are scoring well above league average currently. 
 

Lamar and Greg Roman seem like they might have been waiting their entire careers to find each other in the NFL. LJ is probably the most gifted runner in the league regardless of position. (And maybe the most gifted athlete)  Because of that he makes BAL unique and deservingly in the MVP discussion. He is on pace to pass for 3600+ and rush for 1300, which is incredibleThat said, if he wants to be a starting QB, he will need to learn to do more through the air. Also, dude, people asked him to switch positions. He gets tons of criticisms. 
 

Jimmy G needs to find more consistency. More TD points would be great, they’re currently ridding a stout run game and defense, but he has carried the team when other aspects of their game have faltered. He’s had some huge games and shown pretty bright flashes. In 18 starts he’s scored 28 or more points 9 times, had more than 1 INT just 3 times (only one with 3+) and is 16-2 as a starter. His career average is about 250 yards per game as a starter 2:1 TD:INT and 67% completion percentage

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, H2o said:

He has been good for his team and I'm not saying he hasn't been. His 300 yard per game average is due to his legs though so don't get it twisted. Also, 324 of those passing yards and 5 of those passing TD's came week 1 against the Miami Dolphins. You can come back with the whole, "Well what did Josh do against the Dolphins?" argument, but it's clear to see over the last 4 weeks they have been getting progressively better. Lamar didn't singlehandedly beat the Pats either. Ingram had a good game as well as the defense against that Pats offense. I'm not saying he hasn't improved from last year and I'm not saying he isn't the best fit for his team, but I am also not getting the whole reason the media and various other people love to s*** him off like he is some amazing QB. He's not. He's an average at best QB who happens to be the best athlete at the position since Michael Vick. And if Josh were running for all of those yards and on as many plays as he does people would be screaming about that as well. They'd be moaning he runs too much, he's not a real QB, he's not the long term answer, blah, blah, blah. Winning doesn't matter around here unless your QB is throwing for 350 a game and 3 TD's. Haven't you figured that out yet? 

I really don't get it. Jackson has significantly better passing stats than Josh. If he's average, what is Allen?

 

I long for the day when we're talking about how awesome the Bills QB is playing and not constantly nitpicking other QB's to make the case that they all have problems.

 

JA needs to play better. Very simple. He's got all the physical tools in the world. The question is whether or not he'll put it together. Time will tell. Love the kid, but he's got some real issues to overcome. The only person that can derail Allen's career is Allen. He needs to start playing football and stop thinking so much.

[Mango]

3 hours ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

You know what stat holds up to the test of time? Wins. 

Rex Grossman played in a Super Bowl and was something like 19-13 in the regular season as a starter for the Bears. 
 

Did that one stand up? 

[H2o]

5 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

I really don't get it. Jackson has significantly better passing stats than Josh. If he's average, what is Allen?

 

I long for the day when we're talking about how awesome the Bills QB is playing and not constantly nitpicking other QB's to make the case that they all have problems.

 

JA needs to play better. Very simple. He's got all the physical tools in the world. The question is whether or not he'll put it together. Time will tell. Love the kid, but he's got some real issues to overcome. The only person that can derail Allen's career is Allen. He needs to start playing football and stop thinking so much.

Go look at Jackson's passing stats. Someone broke it down in this thread already. Since week 2 Jackson has 5 passing TD's and 5 INT's. Thats 6 games worth of passing production. In the last 4 games Josh has 7 TD's and 1 INT throwing the ball. The difference is Jackson channeling his inner RB having about 500 yards on the ground in that time. I'm not saying either one is better than the other right now, but it's plain to see that Josh is trending upward as a passer where Lamar is reverting to Lamar from last year. It will cost Baltimore when it counts. I said before the year that Josh's completion percentage would be up 10 pts this year from last. He is pretty darn close to that, while cutting down the turnovers recently, and doing better from the pocket. Josh could be out there winging it like Jackson as well if the team wanted him to do so, though he is clearly not the athlete Jackson is, but I believe the emphasis is on trying to make him a better QB. It's not like I hate Jackson. I think he's fun to watch. I thought he was fun to watch in college too. I think he's a great athlete. But the ball washing narrative that he is this amazing, top QB in the league, all while being an MVP candidate this year make me laugh. Why, because he can run better than any other QB? He's shown some improvement and he is having a good year for Baltimore. Is he his team's MVP? Yes. Is he the league MVP? No.

[RaoulDuke79]

5 hours ago, Mango said:

Rex Grossman played in a Super Bowl and was something like 19-13 in the regular season as a starter for the Bears. 
 

Did that one stand up? 

Yeah......I wouldn't be broken up over seeing Josh Allen playing in the Superbowl. 

Edited November 6, 2019 by RaoulDuke79

[JM57]

17 hours ago, badassgixxer05 said:

Dan Marino was chucking the rock all over back in the 80s too. Passing offense isn't a new thing. Kelly took some time to dial in like anyone else and then saw better days. I think Josh will get there. Its those fn mahomes guys these days that ruin it for everyone. lol Now everyone wants to see MVP level passing day 1 or hes a bust..

 

Passing offense is different now than it was in 1993. Marino and Fouts chucking it around the yard in the 70s and 80s is irrelevant because no one else was doing it. 

 

After the 1993 season, there had been 21 4,000 yard passing seasons in league history. #21 was Joe Namath in 1967, with 4,007 yards. That very same Namath season is now #172. That means there have been another 151 4,000 yard seasons from 1993-2018, or roughly 5.8 per season. 

 

There's been 11 5,000 yard seasons since then. #21 overall is 2001 Kurt Warner, with 4,830 yards. 18 of the top 20 seasons overall have taken place since 2011, with the exceptions being 1984 Marino and 2008 Brees (5,084 and 5,069 respectively.) Marino held single-season passing yards record from 1984 until 2011. That season is now #9 overall, and has been surpassed by Brees (4x), Brady, Big Ben, Mahomes and Manning. 

 

Times have changed. Comparing passing yards from 1993 to 2019 is akin to comparing points in the NHL during the late 90s/early 2000s, when every game was 2-1, vs the 70s and 80s, when every game was 7-6.

[Tcali]

18 hours ago, StHustle said:

Cool so all we need now is to add 3-4 future HOFers in their primes to this roster and we'll be all set.

incl a QB in that 3-4