The London Chargers? In the AFC East? It could happen

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

The WAFL? The West Australia Football League?

 

I think you mean WLAF, and later NFL Europe. The Monarchs lasted all 8 seasons and was probably the most successful franchise along with the Frankfurt Galaxy.

 

I did mean WLAF.  WAFL was a joke name which is what many of us called it at the time.  However, the league lasted until 2007.  The London Mondarchs were replaced by the Berlin Thunder in 1998.

 

Quote

The WLAF returned in 1995 with six teams, all in Europe, and in 1998 the league was rebranded as the NFL Europe League^[3] or NFL Europe, until 2006. For the league's last season, 2007, it officially changed its name to NFL Europa.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Europe

[zonabb]

Classic greedy NFL. This is a move, 100%, to add money to the owners' pockets, even in the high likelihood it'll fail. 

 

it'll fail based on the complicated and higher income taxes levied on players. The team will have a distinct disadvantage with regard to free agency. I love London but not every American is going to want to uproot their lives and in some cases families to move to the UK for half a year. And lastly, that team will have to fly too much, hotel too much, and overall engage in moving around too much to function well. Teams going there will be at a disadvantage as much as that team coming to North America will.

 

It's an absolutely colonist mentality by a bunch of greedy American pigs who if they thought for one second about the product it'll produce, which they care less and less about, they'd never bring it up again. But greed is a drug and they're addicted. Doesn't hurt that they pilfer taxpayer dollars wherever they go to ensure that on day one, everyone gets millions in their pocket just for the attempt. 

 

It's gross.

 

[TigerJ]

Move New England to London and let them play in a European based league.  (there are lots of them)

[reddogblitz]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Because NFL Europe sucked as a product. London is ready for a team now if the NFL is ready to give it one. I still feel the Jags make more sense because they have started to build a fan base here already. 

 

How so?  Please explain.

 

It included players like Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, Fred Jackson and coaches like HOF Ernie Stautner who was long time DC on Tom Landry's staff who led Frankfurt to back to back World Bowls.  Other coaches included Mouse Davis, Kay Stephenson, and Jim Haslett,

 

My point is if they love football so much why didn't they watch it?  Instead their franchise folded up like a cheap lawn chair.   I love football and I watched it and thought it was fun.  Are they snooty football fans that only can stomach "The Best football"?  Makes no sense to me.

 

[Saxum]

12 hours ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Really it doesnt affect my game day experience. I would have a hard time just deciding to loathe a new team that easily. Also having the Bills moved from AFCE to a diff division would really kill alot of my (short term) interest in the sport.

 

I would actually like Bills in rust belt division with Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Bengals.

[Livinginthepast]

So sick of these games in London. The games in Toronto were an embarrassment for the Bills. Just stay in the USA please and save the international games for the soon to be instinct exhibition season.

[corta765]

1 hour ago, thronethinker said:

This may sound good on paper, but I highly doubt players are going to want to live in London half the year. Coaching staff and MGMT would have to live in London all year. Families on a different Continent is not too desirable for players and coaches. 

 

From what I have read players and families are pretty open to living there. The greater issue the tax difference between the UK and the US. I believe Peter King of NBC said the NFL would have to consider a bit of tax relief for players in the UK so the franchise was not so far behind the 8 ball.

[billsfan89]

Just move the Chargers back to San Diego, those fans supported the team and San Diego in addition to being a beautiful city is a large market that can support a team. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

So sick of these games in London. The games in Toronto were an embarrassment for the Bills. Just stay in the USA please and save the international games for the soon to be instinct exhibition season.

In what way are the London games causing you to be sick?  Have you been to one?

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

How so?  Please explain.

 

It included players like Kurt Warner, Brad Johnson, Fred Jackson and coaches like HOF Ernie Stautner who was long time DC on Tom Landry's staff who led Frankfurt to back to back World Bowls.  Other coaches included Mouse Davis, Kay Stephenson, and Jim Haslett,

 

My point is if they love football so much why didn't they watch it?  Instead their franchise folded up like a cheap lawn chair.   I love football and I watched it and thought it was fun.  Are they snooty football fans that only can stomach "The Best football"?  Makes no sense to me.

 

 

Because what first spiked the interest in the UK was Channel 4 arriving on the scene in the mid 80s showing the NFL. A hardcore of fandom built up on the back of that and they loved watching the games. To then say "here go watch the London Monarchs" was a bit like saying to an American soccer fan who has grown up watching Liverpool and Man United in the EPL "hey rather than watching that on the TV or turning up and filling the Big House for a pre-season exhibition game between the two teams why don't you turn up to watch the Colorado Rapids?" The answer is because it is a significantly inferior product.

 

The NFL International Series in London has gone from strength to strength because what has now been proven beyond any reasonable doubt is that when given a high quality product to watch the British (and northern / western European fans) will turn up in their droves and sell the thing out. The Panthers - Buccs at Tottenham sold out in 9 minutes. The Panthers. And the Buccaneers. Let that sink in.

10 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

So sick of these games in London. The games in Toronto were an embarrassment for the Bills. Just stay in the USA please and save the international games for the soon to be instinct exhibition season.

 

Hey, appropriate username.

[DCOrange]

21 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

Just move the Chargers back to San Diego, those fans supported the team and San Diego in addition to being a beautiful city is a large market that can support a team. 

My guess is that there's probably too much pride both from San Diego and from the Chargers for them to make up now.

[Saxum]

Let Jaguars move to SD where there are no hard feelings and actual NFL fans.

[Rocky Landing]

Guess I wouldn’t really miss the Dolphins. 

[sherpa]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 Let that sink in.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter.

When you have two teams play at an off site, and you neutralize the impact to both, which is the status quo, there is no significant problem.

If you based a team there, it would be a completely different issue.

They would be significantly disadvantaged for reasons of player and staff desirability to live there, immense travel issues for the London based team, potential tax issues, and a significant free agent problem.

 

It isn't London or its' fans, it's just a bad idea.

[reddogblitz]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Because what first spiked the interest in the UK was Channel 4 arriving on the scene in the mid 80s showing the NFL. A hardcore of fandom built up on the back of that and they loved watching the games. To then say "here go watch the London Monarchs" was a bit like saying to an American soccer fan who has grown up watching Liverpool and Man United in the EPL "hey rather than watching that on the TV or turning up and filling the Big House for a pre-season exhibition game between the two teams why don't you turn up to watch the Colorado Rapids?" The answer is because it is a significantly inferior product.

 

The NFL International Series in London has gone from strength to strength because what has now been proven beyond any reasonable doubt is that when given a high quality product to watch the British (and northern / western European fans) will turn up in their droves and sell the thing out. The Panthers - Buccs at Tottenham sold out in 9 minutes. The Panthers. And the Buccaneers. Let that sink in.

 

I see your point.  However what I wonder about is would it be sustainable?  It's one thing to sell out a game or two as a novelty.  What happens when you have 10 games to sell out per year after the novelty has worn off?  It's like if they open a new restaurant in your neighborhood and for the first 2 weeks the line is out the door.  After a few weeks not so much.

 

I just wonder if London is ready for a team in the same way LA was ready for two teams?

 

As far as the inferiority of the product goes, they love basketball in Europe too.  And they have their own leagues AND support it even though it's not on the same level as the NBA.  Same goes for China.  If you love the sport, you love the sport I guess is my point.  In Seattle when they bring in Chelsea for a friendly they sell 65,000 tickets.  For MLS games they sell 35,000.  Still a lot for an inferior product.  But they support it because they love soccer in Seattle.

Edited November 5, 2019 by reddogblitz
Remove dead wood.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, reddogblitz said:

 

I see your point.  However what I wonder about is would it be sustainable?  It's one thing to sell out a game or two as a novelty.  What happens when you have 10 games to sell out per year after the novelty has worn off?  It's like if they open a new restaurant in your neighborhood and for the first 2 weeks the line is out the door.  After a few weeks not so much.

 

I just wonder if London is ready for a team in the same way LA was ready for two teams?

 

The only way I could see it working is if they had a whole division over there.  They could play each for a the first half of the season and then travel to the US to play the rest of the schedule.

 

For player safety sake, traveling back and forth could cause more injuries because jet lag is a real thing.  I have traveled over there many times and can attest to that.

 

As far as the inferiority of the product goes, they love basketball in Europe too.  And they have their own leagues AND support it even though it's not on the same level as the NBA.  Same goes for China.  If you love the sport, you love the sport I guess is my point.  In Seattle when they bring in Chelsea for a friendly they sell 65,000 tickets.  For MLS games they sell 35,000.  Still a lot for an inferior product.  But they support it because they love soccer in Seattle.

 

Yes - it is sustainable. They have sold out four games twice now and three games another four times. The support for the product is real. And it is more popular now than when the Monarchs were about in the early 90s. If the novelty was going to wear off I think by year 12 it would have, right? It hasn't the games are more popular, they are selling out more quickly, the number of season ticket sales (ie. people buying for all 4 games) is up and the Jags in particular have done a really good job of building a following. I was out in town on Sunday morning and the Jags shirts far outstripped the Patriots shirts which if you go back 5 or 6 years was definitely not the case. I used to be sceptical that a team would work because I foresaw a problem in that I am not going to stop following the Bills to suddenly support the London Whoevers, but the longer it goes on, the more games they sell, the more quickly they sell them, the more I am convinced that at least for ten years, at least for the first decade there would be absolutely no worries about selling the tickets and maintaining the interest. If the team sucks for 10 years would people still show up? Well, maybe not... but how is that different than the problems the Jags are having in Jacksonville and the Chargers are having in LA (and the Chargers haven't even sucked)?

 

My view is it will happen in the next 6 years - by 2025 there will be a London franchise. I think initially that franchise will likely retain a US base and play a split a schedule (maybe 6 home games in London and 2 in the US in non-NFL cities or possibly in Mexico) but I think they could sell 8 home games for the next 10 years at Tottenham. I don't think it would be a problem at all.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Is there enough population outside the metro to support a team?  I'm not familiar with Oregon specifically but I know that pretty much when you get out beyond the suburbs of  major western cities outside of California, all you've got is farm and/or ranch land, forest or desert dotted with small towns of a few hundred people.  A major population center in these areas would have about 5000-10000 people.  The eastern parts of both Washington and Oregon are primarily sparsely populated mountains and high desert.   Even Northern Cal is much more rural and sparsely populated than further south around the Bay Area.

Not sure, but for reference the Buffalo and Rochester MSA's combined are 2.1M people whereas Portland-Hillsboro-Vancouver, WA MSA is 2.5M alone. It's surprisingly big.  Only one NBA team for major league sports competition.  I looked up median household income and it's roughly 40% higher in Portland vs. Buffalo (just for comparison purposes). Mo' money...

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

It doesn't matter.

When you have two teams play at an off site, and you neutralize the impact to both, which is the status quo, there is no significant problem.

If you based a team there, it would be a completely different issue.

They would be significantly disadvantaged for reasons of player and staff desirability to live there, immense travel issues for the London based team, potential tax issues, and a significant free agent problem.

 

It isn't London or its' fans, it's just a bad idea.

 

That is a different argument. I was responding to the first fallacy - which is often repeated on these boards - that London "wouldn't sustain a team." That is simply not true.

 

If you want to argue that the logistics of it remain a challenge, then yes, of course they do. But you know what - that isn't going to stop them. There are no logistical challenges that are insurmountable if the sums add up. That will be the critical question. Do the numbers make sense for the League. If they do then it will happen.

[reddogblitz]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yes - it is sustainable. They have sold out four games twice now and three games another four times. The support for the product is real. And it is more popular now than when the Monarchs were about in the early 90s. If the novelty was going to wear off I think by year 12 it would have, right? It hasn't the games are more popular, they are selling out more quickly, the number of season ticket sales (ie. people buying for all 4 games) is up and the Jags in particular have done a really good job of building a following. I was out in town on Sunday morning and the Jags shirts far outstripped the Patriots shirts which if you go back 5 or 6 years was definitely not the case. I used to be sceptical that a team would work because I foresaw a problem in that I am not going to stop following the Bills to suddenly support the London Whoevers, but the longer it goes on, the more games they sell, the more quickly they sell them, the more I am convinced that at least for ten years, at least for the first decade there would be absolutely no worries about selling the tickets and maintaining the interest. If the team sucks for 10 years would people still show up? Well, maybe not... but how is that different than the problems the Jags are having in Jacksonville and the Chargers are having in LA (and the Chargers haven't even sucked)?

 

My view is it will happen in the next 6 years - by 2025 there will be a London franchise. I think initially that franchise will likely retain a US base and play a split a schedule (maybe 6 home games in London and 2 in the US in non-NFL cities or possibly in Mexico) but I think they could sell 8 home games for the next 10 years at Tottenham. I don't think it would be a problem at all.

 

You're on the ground there.  I trust your knowledge and judgement.

 

Are there any professional football leagues in Europe?  With all this interest in NFL football have any been proposed?  Do kids play football there?

 

I'm asking because I'm curious.  Not trying to make a point.

[Livinginthepast]

44 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

In what way are the London games causing you to be sick?  Have you been to one?

So you have to go to one to appreciate how "special" they are? I'm sure they are awesome for the fans in attendance but as NFL games go these games are a joke. The quality is often mediocre. You have 2 teams far from home,  possibly still jet lagged in a stadium not really suited for football.   To have a team in London permanently  and travelling across the Atlantic (and then across the States) would be sheer idiocy.