BringBackOrton Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said: So let Me see his ceiling is the best DT in the league and his floor is less than thatMe see his ceiling is the best DT in the league and his floor is less than that what exactly is the problem here he is being played outplayed buy a veteran who is Str8 Ballin and he is a rookie what exactly is the problem here he is being played outplayed buy a veteran who is Str8 Ballin and he is a rookie Someone check on John! 1
Reader Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 I know this thread is about Oliver, but I want to tangent real quick. Was D. Johnson inactive yesterday? It looks like he had no snaps.
YoloinOhio Posted November 4, 2019 Author Posted November 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Reader said: I know this thread is about Oliver, but I want to tangent real quick. Was D. Johnson inactive yesterday? It looks like he had no snaps. He was active
GoBills808 Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: FIFY. I'd like to see more of Vincent Taylor and less of Star. Weren't you the one claiming that Star had been benched in the second half? 1
DCofNC Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 6 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said: Agreed. The reason Oliver's snaps were limited is because the Skins were committed to running the ball and Phillips is better at run stuffing right now. I believe Oliver will continue to progress and have a better all around game soon enough. I am looking forward to the day he "breaks out". I hope it is one of the next couple of games, but if not, I am predicting it will be on Thanksgiving day. He will be highly motivated to show up big in Texas and the added bonus of a National game will be what it takes too have his first "signature" game. Yeah, except the opposite is actually true. Oliver has done a good job anchoring and taking up blocker and Phillips has been exploding into the back field and either making big plays or unfortunately, opening running lanes. Right now your issue is this, Star is actually easier to defend with 1 guy than 2, he starts moving and has poor body control, he can be flushed right out of the way with his own momentum. Phillips is constantly trying to go up field and plays too high to anchor, gets pushed out of lanes too easily. The Best bet at NT actually appears to be Oliver, even though its a huge waste of talent, just like making Dareus a NT. Then there's Edmunds... they need to move him outside, thats what his skill set is perfect for and he honestly sucks inside, I know I'll be blasted for it, but they should end it, put him where he can have an impact. He's consistently picking the wrong gaps and getting blown up by linemen when they get to him, he's long and rangy, but not built to engage and shed. I dont know who is on the roster that could step in and take his roll, but they need to look at it. He and Milano have a lot of the same skills and deficiencies, I think they need to move him. They talked about a guy with Lawrence Taylor like potential and hes done exaclty nothing thus far, either they were SO WRONG or they need to let him play his better position. 2
Doc Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 Good for Jordan. Now, what was the change they made at halftime to limit AP to 7 yards on 8 carries?
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Real McCoy said: Nahh slipped to the 2nd rd. Numerous people (myself included) here would have taken him in the 1st or 2nd rd. I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver rotate through the line and play some DE with his speed he might really excel opposite of Hughes. His actual size is better suited for the position. sucks that Ed is being branded a "bust" already but then again, it is the "Bills Posters Short Porch Gang".....as if I give a rat's azz......he is a developing youngster.....Ed "Too Small" Oliver has started 8 games which is an "eternity" for some astute(COUGH) posters out there to earn a "bust" label....go figure....man I'd love to be drafted here with this "welcoming committee"......SMH...... 1
Bleeding Bills Blue Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 6 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Some here are more educated in football than me, so help me out on this. The impression I had between halves yesterday is that the front 7 was more reading and reacting in the first half, whereas in the second half they were attacking the LOS and forcing plays. Is that correct? Felt more like fitting their gaps and tackling better.
DrDawkinstein Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 6 hours ago, oldmanfan said: Some here are more educated in football than me, so help me out on this. The impression I had between halves yesterday is that the front 7 was more reading and reacting in the first half, whereas in the second half they were attacking the LOS and forcing plays. Is that correct? 5 minutes ago, dneveu said: Felt more like fitting their gaps and tackling better. Micah Hyde was just on S&B and that is exactly what he said. No major changes, just filling gaps better and not over-running. 2
PlayoffsPlease Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 How are other top 10 picks faring in terms of overall impact this year?
Socal-805 Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said: On the 'Skins' first three-and-out, the third-down incompletion was caused by Oliver, who crushed the pocket from the middle. I was kind of surprised we didn't see him much for the rest of the game but it's not because he's playing badly - he's playing well. IMO Oliver played the run much better than Phillips did against the Eagles. No one played the run well against the Eagles.
Happy Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, GoBills808 said: Weren't you the one claiming that Star had been benched in the second half? Yeah. Saw a lot more of #96 and #97 more so than #98 in the second half.
Real McClappy Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) 45 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said: sucks that Ed is being branded a "bust" already but then again, it is the "Bills Posters Short Porch Gang".....as if I give a rat's azz......he is a developing youngster.....Ed "Too Small" Oliver has started 8 games which is an "eternity" for some astute(COUGH) posters out there to earn a "bust" label....go figure....man I'd love to be drafted here with this "welcoming committee"......SMH...... I have no issues with the pick of Oliver and still think he's just so raw and will develop. Right now though Jordan deserves the spot as our feature DT, like Devin deserves to be the featured RB in our system. I'd much rather see the Bills plug him somewhere on this line, he has a burst/quickness you can't teach. I really don't want to see him only getting 20% of D snaps. He needs to play now, on the end or center I can careless. Hell throw him at LB, the dude has that kind of talent. Edited November 4, 2019 by Real McCoy
Coach Tuesday Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said: Yup and there were 2-3 more plays like that on Oliver's 18 snaps. The narrative out there is just wrong. 3
vincec Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 8 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: Yes, Oliver has played well from what I can tell. But tough to sit Phillips. It’s a good rotation. I think the 18 snaps from Oliver was because skins didn’t pass much. Based on their relative pass rushing production I don't think Washington passing more would have impacted the rotation.
Reed83HOF Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 A pretty good refresher for people: https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/prospect-battle-royale-ed-oliver-vs-quinnen-williams Paraphrasing: Production If this battle were fought purely on paper, Oliver would win in a landslide. The man already has 13.5 tackles for loss and three sacks this season, pushing his three-year career totals to 52 tackles for loss and 13.5 sacks in 31 games. And to be honest, those numbers don't even do his performances justice. Get Off/Burst Even from a square stance playing in the A-gaps, one of Oliver's biggest strengths in his first step. He has elite explosiveness off the ball coming from his twitched-up lower half, threatening his opponent directly off the ball. This may be the hardest trait for certain offensive linemen to overcome 1v1, because if you can't match Oliver athletically, you need to be a technical wizard to slow him down. Edge: Oliver Leverage/Pad Level Again, you won't find a weakness here from either player. It might be the biggest strength of both of their games, and the most natural. Oliver is 6-foot-1 and Williams is listed 6-foot-3, and both play with that kind of built-in leverage that make them impossible to supplant despite not being the biggest defensive tackles. They also get into your pads right off of the snap. There is no mistaking who is in control with either of these players on any given snap. Both of them will physically take you places you don't want to go if you're an opposing offensive lineman. Power comes from leverage and hand placement, not your listed weight on the roster. Anyone who tells you "Ed Oliver wins more with quickness and athletic ability than raw power" is being lazy and hasn't actually watched him. The dude is a complete freight train and has physically manhandled the AAC for three years. Double teams don't even help, as Oliver is too low and anchored to the ground for opponents to find any good surface area to displace him. Edge: Push. There's no way you can dock either player in this category. Hand Usage With all due respect to Ed Oliver, this is Quinnen Williams' area of expertise. The redshirt sophomore has truly rare hand usage, not only as a run defender, which we've already witnessed in the clip above, but also as a pass rusher. The list of collegiate interior defensive linemen that I've ever scouted with his hand usage is extremely short. Oliver's hand usage, especially in the run game, is exceptional. He doesn't have the longest arms, but he knows how to use them to his advantage to stay clean and shed blockers. But as a pass rusher, one of his biggest concerns is that he relies more on his natural athleticism than having a bevy of moves to get to the quarterback. Edge: Williams Secondary Traits I break the secondary traits up into four categories: Rush Moves, Mental Processing, Range and Stack-Shed (ability to get off blocks). Rush Moves goes to Williams, as I already mentioned. Oliver has flashed a spin and some other techniques at times, but too often when his first move is stopped he doesn't have a secondary plan of attack. That will be one of the key areas for him to improve in the NFL, and one of the biggest differences between he and Aaron Donald, a player who he is often compared to, as prospects. If Oliver develops a more consistent plan of attack and learns to beat opponents in a variety of ways, look out. He might be the most athletic defensive tackle we've ever scouted, with incredible range, change-of-direction and ability to play in space. Oliver has a linebacker's movement skills in a defensive tackle's body. I love Quinnen Williams and think he is clearly a great athlete for his position, but he ain't doing that. Nobody is. Oliver takes the Range category with ease. I'll give Mental Processing and Stack-Shed to Williams, while recognizing that Oliver is good in the first area and excellent in the second. The most surprising thing to me about Williams' game is how good he is at finding the football while engaged at the line of scrimmage. Typically that takes awhile to develop, but he is just so aware of everything a defensive lineman should be aware of - depth from the line of scrimmage, misdirection tendencies, traps, quarterback movement - on any given snap. Size/Level of Competition If there is an area of understandable concern for Oliver, it is his size and level of competition. There is very little he can do about either, outside of rewinding time and choosing to go somewhere other than Houston. I've been told Oliver's weight is between 270-275 pounds, which would make him the lightest full-time interior defensive lineman in the NFL. There is no doubt that he is small for his position (smaller than Donald, who was 285) and that given that size, his level of competition would come into question as a result. The concerns are valid and should be an important part of his evaluation, but I think his traits and tape are just overwhelming. There is a small amount of risk with Oliver given the projection to a totally different level of football, especially if he weighs in lighter than expected, but it's a risk I'll take in the top five picks of the draft. His ceiling is that high The Verdict Right now, Oliver remains on top of my interior defensive line rankings, but this one is going to come down to the wire. I haven't run either player through my formal grading scale yet, and Combine testing will also play a big role in what will likely be very similar film grades. Essentially, Williams is the more pro-ready player due to his technique and mental processing, while Oliver is still outstanding in both of those areas while also being the superior athlete. Yet Williams is still an impressive athlete with all the physical traits you could really want at the position. There simply isn't much downside to either player. Are you catching on yet? Both of these guys are incredible, and while one will need to be ranked above the other before it is all said and done, the duo should be under the blue chip section of every draft board. The draft process always reveals a few things we didn't notice before, but right now Oliver's ceiling is still alluring enough for me to bet on that upside. Barely. Maybe. By a hair? Man. I don't know. 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: Yup and there were 2-3 more plays like that on Oliver's 18 snaps. The narrative out there is just wrong. He's a rookie, has not had a full nfl offseason conditioning program, is now playing against the best players in the world (on a team that does not have a lot of sacks the last 2 years), drafted as an interior pass rusher who relied on his strength and power in college and now has to get better with his hands and other techniques to win consistently against top tier ILmen. Right now Phillips is playing great, he should get more playing time. I have been down on Ford as an LT, you have to balance winning and getting reps, I'm glad our best players are playing right now; the development will come along. This is way to soon to say bust or not
oldmanfan Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 Watching the first half now. Only one long run I’ve seen with him on the field; got excellent penetration but the whole D slanted right and Peterson cut back against pursuit.
EmotionallyUnstable Posted November 4, 2019 Posted November 4, 2019 33 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: FWIW, this is what @ScottLaw is referring to with Edmunds. His hesitation here is a killer. The BACKSIDE GUARD was able to make the block here because he’s playing too much on his heels and not playing downhill quick enough. IMO he should have ran across and THROUGH THAT guard’s face. You see Milano scraping (he hesitates too and is late to the play) and had Edmunds gotten across the face of the Guard, I would imagine he’d be in position to close that gap down, possibly allowing Milano the time to get there. McD’s one gap defense only works if everyone truly honors their gap. The hesitation comes from lack of trust. In this scenario, had both (or either) Edmunds and Milano been down hill and more decisive, I think this dead at the LOS. this is just one example, but the 250 lb MLB has a tendency to play too often like a 150 lb player. 3
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