Sunday Nite Football Patriots*** at Ravens 8:20 ET NBC

[stevewin]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's a chess game.  If Harbaugh isn't prepared for that and ready to counter, he hasn't learned a thing from previous encounters.

I think you are forgetting only Bill B plays chess - the rest of us checkers

Edited November 4, 2019 by stevewin

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Mostly agree, but a few important caveats below

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

My takeaways:

- This was the most un-Patriots performance by the Patriots since the game that forced Bill to utter the immortal words "we are on to Cincinnati". In many ways they beat themselves. Penalties on a FG attempt that gave the Ravens 1st and goal, Edelman's first fumble in THREE years goes for 6 the other way. Brady recklessly throwing to nobody down the middle. They normally make you beat them. Last night they gave the Ravens a little help.

 

My take on this is that the Ravens helped themselves.  They were hitting hard all night.  Edelman got knocked ass-over-teakettle on legal hits after the catch at least twice, maybe 3 times, prior to the fumble.  And the Ravens were going hard after the forced fumble on every play.  The Ravens OL was outmaneuvering the Pats DL and making them jumpy.  The Ravens played a hard hitting very physical game most of the day (there was a point in the middle where they were on the field too much and softened a bit)

 

They said last night that Brady is getting called for intentional grounding more than any QB in the league, which is a surprise to me.  My perception was he gets away with it un-called a lot.  Maybe the league has sent a message to the refs to call it.  It was so sweet when Brady was lobbying the refs for a DPI flag, the flag came out, the announcers were speculating he got his call, and then they called "intentional grounding" against him instead.

 

So that was a factor - holds and IG calls that normally aren't made against the Pats, were made last night.

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

- The Patriots Oline has been a problem all year but a lot of their opponents so far have just not been able to take full advantage. Wouldn't be surprised to see changes up front next week. Belichick and Scarnecchia are masters at juggling the same below average personnel and finding a better combination. Marshall Newhouse at LT is not getting you another Lombardi.

 

Yes.  And when they cut their kicker's ass and bring in a guy off the street, somehow he's a good kicker.  If they bring in an OL off the street, somehow he'll be a good OLman.

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

- Greg Roman is an absolute genius of a run game coordinator. And if you have a QB who is a dynamic runner and still trying to get there as a passer he will pistol formation you to death.

 

In Jackson, I think G-Ro may have the dual threat QB he always wanted and didn't quite get with Kaepernick or Tyrod Taylor.   People who say that Jackson couldn't play QB in the conventional sense are quite likely correct - but he can pass, his mechanics and ability to maneuver in the pocket are already a significant level-up from last year.  He dropped my jaw with passes at least 3 times last night (granted his receivers made some Money receptions too).  And reportedly, G-Ro says he's smart.   So in Jackson, G-Ro has a QB who can and will make throws that Kaepernick and/or TT couldn't, and a QB who can and will make brilliant cuts and maneuver through traffic in a way they couldn't.  Jackson positively undressed Van Noy on one play last night.

TBD: will DC's around the league figure this out?  And how quickly?

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

- People shouldn't get carried away. The Ravens have always been a tough out for the Patriots. Twice they have beaten the Pats in Foxborough in the playoffs and if Lee Evans could catch and the officials knew the eligible receiver rules then that might well be FOUR playoff wins against them. They are one of the few teams in the NFL who are not half beaten by New England before they walk on the field. And the reason for that is.....

- That when the Patriots play the Ravens Belichick has his smallest coaching advantage of any opponent in the NFL. John Harbaugh is the 2nd best Head Coach in the league. His ability to reinvent his team year on year and adjust their schemes to the players they have is absolutely stellar. He always seems to make smart assistant coach hires too.

 

I thought about that, because I would argue that's the case when the Patriots play the Eagles.  I think Doug Pederson may be that guy.  But upon reflection, Harbaugh has been doing it for years, so I will go with you and give him the edge.

[BringBackOrton]

2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s throwing for 226 yards a game. That’s not triple option. Honestly, why are people doubling down on their bad pre-draft opinions? As of today he’s ABSOLUTELY the furthest along of the 1st round QBs from last year. He’s an MVP candidate at this point (not that I think he will win). He’s 12-3 as a starter.

RG3 threw for 213 yards per game at one point too homie.

 

I’m not doubling down on anything. I’m not invested in Lamar one way or another. He’s certainly an athletic weapon, and he puts pressure on defenses with his legs like probably no one else in the league right now. But those things were also said about other QB’s who failed to have sustained success in the NFL.

 

Also, running the pistol with two to 3 runners in the backfield is by definition the triple option. Watch the games.

[SoCal Deek]

Anyone else find it frustrating that Brady gets Sanu and two weeks into it is throwing to this guy, wide open, all over the field? Although I can’t stand Tommie, he knows more about what’s happening on the field than any player I’ve ever seen....period.

[DCOrange]

28 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

The Ravens are running the Navy offense, let’s settle right down.

 

Their passing game is outproducing 12 other teams, including ours, and Lamar has more total yards by himself than 5 teams have.

[stevewin]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

They said last night that Brady is getting called for intentional grounding more than any QB in the league, which is a surprise to me.  My perception was he gets away with it un-called a lot.  Maybe the league has sent a message to the refs to call it.  It was so sweet when Brady was lobbying the refs for a DPI flag, the flag came out, the announcers were speculating he got his call, and then they called "intentional grounding" against him instead.

He does get away with it un-called a lot - the majority of the time - the reason he is getting called for it the most is simply the frequency at which he does it.  Most QBs don't do it because they know the rules.  Brady thinks the rule doesn't apply to him.  Even though most are not called - he does it so often that even just calling it a percentage of the time results in him leading the league. 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, DCOrange said:

 

Their passing game is outproducing 12 other teams, including ours, and Lamar has more total yards by himself than 5 teams have.

Okay okay, let me clarify. They are running the Navy offense EXTREMELY well.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I thought about that, because I would argue that's the case when the Patriots play the Eagles.  I think Doug Pederson may be that guy.  But upon reflection, Harbaugh has been doing it for years, so I will go with you and give him the edge.

 

And  I can't stand Philadelphia or Doug Pederson. I hate them more than I hate the Patriots and it is completely irrational, I don't know why I hate them. I just do. Always have. I used to think I hated Andy Reid and now I kind of like him. It is the Eagles. I just can't stand them. So I'll give them no credit and when they play the Pats in a couple of weeks I hope the Patriots bash them by 50, just as I did in that Superbowl.

[DCOrange]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Okay okay, let me clarify. They are running the Navy offense EXTREMELY well.

The Navy offense almost literally doesn't throw the ball at all. Lamar is a better passer than a lot of other starters right now.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

15 minutes ago, stevewin said:

I think you are forgetting Bill B plays chess - the rest of us checkers

 

Not forgetting a thing.  Belicheck**** is not the only chess master in the league.  He got check-mated by Pederson in the Superbowl in 2017.  Either that or Pederson came up with a Checkers beats Chess strategy

 

Harbaugh has also been able to make Belicheck**** sweat and be "extra" with the sketchy rule-loophole plays (when was that - division game 2014?  AFC championship 2011?)

 

The rest of the league coaches, checkers until proven otherwise.

 

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And  I can't stand Philadelphia or Doug Pederson. I hate them more than I hate the Patriots and it is completely irrational, I don't know why I hate them. I just do. Always have. I used to think I hated Andy Reid and now I kind of like him. It is the Eagles. I just can't stand them. So I'll give them no credit and when they play the Pats in a couple of weeks I hope the Patriots bash them by 50, just as I did in that Superbowl.

 

Ah!  You're a true fan.  Irrational hate is part of the fan game.   I'll grant you he doesn't have the track record of sustained success as Harbaugh, but give Pederson some props under your hatred.   He is a legit high-level football coaching mind.

 

My hope is all the other way.  I hope the Eagles carve up the Patriots like Chicken Dinner***.  I am so nauseated by all the "greatest D of all time" crap that was being spewed around after 1/3 of the season.  The Patriots have played a slightly tougher schedule than the Bills, but before last night, they'd faced teams with an aggregate record of what as of Wk 8? 15-43? Now as of Week 9 20-45?

 

The Bills have faced teams with a record of 20-42 through week 9, and won over teams with a record of 8-38.  I grant  that's teams with a worse record, but not so much worse that the Pats D should be given the GOAT crown while the Bills are pronounced "pretenders" and "a bad team".

 

[Kirby Jackson]

7 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

RG3 threw for 213 yards per game at one point too homie.

 

I’m not doubling down on anything. I’m not invested in Lamar one way or another. He’s certainly an athletic weapon, and he puts pressure on defenses with his legs like probably no one else in the league right now. But those things were also said about other QB’s who failed to have sustained success in the NFL.

 

Also, running the pistol with two to 3 runners in the backfield is by definition the triple option. Watch the games.

Why are we comparing him to RG3? Do we have to lump every mobile black QB into the same bunch? What does Lamar’s play have to do with RG3? Why are we to assume that they will be the same? Why not use Russell Wilson? Doesn’t fit the narrative? Or better yet why don’t we look at LAMAR and judge him on his own merits?
 

It’s the definition of the triple option but not the Navy offense that you compared it to earlier. Lamar is averaging 30 passing attempts a game. The Navy offense averages 8 pass attempts a game. You were trying to compare the 2 but that’s not the case. Watch the games.

[BringBackOrton]

5 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

The Navy offense almost literally doesn't throw the ball at all. Lamar is a better passer than a lot of other starters right now.

Lamar Jackson has more passing yards per game than only 3 QB’s who have played as many games as him.

 

Allen, Jimmy G and Brissett. And Brissett is skewed because he got knocked out of his last game early.

[stevewin]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not forgetting a thing.  Belicheck**** is not the only chess master in the league.  He got check-mated by Pederson in the Superbowl in 2017.  Either that or Pederson came up with a Checkers beats Chess strategy

 

Harbaugh has also been able to make Belicheck**** sweat and be "extra" with the sketchy rule-loophole plays (when was that - division game 2014?  AFC championship 2011?)

 

The rest of the league coaches, checkers until proven otherwise.

 

I was actually being sarcastic     So sick of the Bellicheat 4-D chess narrrative

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Why are we comparing him to RG3? Do we have to lump every mobile black QB into the same bunch? What does Lamar’s play have to do with RG3? Why are we to assume that they will be the same? Why not use Russell Wilson? Doesn’t fit the narrative? Or better yet why don’t we look at LAMAR and judge him on his own merits?
 

It’s the definition of the triple option but not the Navy offense that you compared it to earlier. Lamar is averaging 30 passing attempts a game. The Navy offense averages 8 pass attempts a game. You were trying to compare the 2 but that’s not the case. Watch the games.

Russell Wilson doesn’t run the option anymore dude. That’s why it’s important to compare apples to apples. I could compare Lamar to Watson all day long, but I’m not doing that because they don’t run similar offenses. I’m not convinced that you’re the one with the chip on your shoulder about this guy.

 

Thank u for admitting they do run the triple option after vehemently denying it. Not enough of that on TBD these days. 

 

And again, Jackson is throwing more yards per game than only two QB’s who have played mostly 8 full games. And one of those is our beautiful gazelle.

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ah!  You're a true fan.  Irrational hate is part of the fan game.   I'll grant you he doesn't have the track record of sustained success as Harbaugh, but give Pederson some props under your hatred.   He is a legit high-level football coaching mind.

 

I think Pederson is a good Xs and Os guy. Still not sold on him as a leader in the sense that I would look for.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Pederson is a good Xs and Os guy. Still not sold on him as a leader in the sense that I would look for.

 

Fair.

 

I think he's shown every sign so far.  You don't overcome losing your starter and win the SB anyway unless you have that leadership thang.  I mean, who else has done that?

 

But time will tell.

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Fair.

 

I think he's shown every sign so far.  You don't overcome losing your starter and win the SB anyway unless you have that leadership thang.  I mean, who else has done that?

 

But time will tell.

The Bills should’ve with Marv!

[Happy]

2 hours ago, PatsFanNH said:

The Pats are able be run on. (Although that move by Jackson was scary! ) the simple fact is outside of the Ravens no other team has the patience just to run the ball constantly.. Even the Ravens would have probably lost if Edelman doesn’t fumble. (That’s a 14 point swing.)  But yes they suck against the run.. but there is no other team left that scares me for running like them.. I mean Option plays etc  like a college offense. 

 

Honestly, your defense is good, but was incredibly overhyped.  I mean, better than the '85 Bears and 2000 Ravens?  No way, your defense isn't in the same league as those teams.  They just didn't face a team that exploited them like Baltimore did.  You also have Philly, Dallas, KC, and Houston coming up after your bye week.  Brutal schedule...

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Your point? It’s a winning brand of football. He’s thrown for over 1,800 yards (more than Jimmy G, Allen, Brissett, etc). He’s run for another 637 which has him as a top 10 rusher in the whole league!! He’s scored 17 TDs and has 5 turnovers. He’s 5th in the NFL in QBR and just shredded a great NE defense. What is it specifically that you don’t like (other than the fact that you were wrong about him coming out)? 

 

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s throwing for 226 yards a game. That’s not triple option. Honestly, why are people doubling down on their bad pre-draft opinions? As of today he’s ABSOLUTELY the furthest along of the 1st round QBs from last year. He’s an MVP candidate at this point (not that I think he will win). He’s 12-3 as a starter.

 

56 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

I’m not doubling down on anything. I’m not invested in Lamar one way or another. He’s certainly an athletic weapon, and he puts pressure on defenses with his legs like probably no one else in the league right now. But those things were also said about other QB’s who failed to have sustained success in the NFL.

 

38 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Russell Wilson doesn’t run the option anymore dude. That’s why it’s important to compare apples to apples. I could compare Lamar to Watson all day long, but I’m not doing that because they don’t run similar offenses.

 

I rarely agree with BringBackOrton (no offense intended ); however, I think the analyses on Jackson tends to be a bit on the rosy side and I am not sure why.

 

He started out well this year. Over his first 3 games, he averaged 287 yds per game with 7 TDs, 0 INTs, and 0 Fumbles. He also averaged 9 rushes and 53 yds per game with one TD.

 

Over his last five games, he has averaged 190 yds per game with 5 TDs, 5 INTs, and 4 Fumbles. He has gotten worse in pretty much every passing metric (and it is not just stat reading, I have actually watched 3 of those 5 games - and he did not look good in the passing game). What has incresed over the last five games are the numbers in his rushing game. He has averaged 15 rushes and 93 yds per game with 4 TDs.

 

I think, his play right now, from a passing perspective, is closer to the bottom of the league than the top. He is making plays; however, at the moment, they are primarily with his legs and I am not sure his overall success is sustainable in the style of play I am seeing right now.

 

What I will say is this: Like Allen, I think it is too soon to reach any definitive conclusions and he is winning.

Edited November 4, 2019 by billsfan1959

[Livinginthepast]

7 hours ago, BillsFan692 said:

Jackson only had 163 yards.. pay attention.

 

Ravens pounded it on the ground and manhandled the pats dline.

Yeah I was paying attention, vs the Pats Jackson was 17/23 for 163 and 1 TD, NO INTs with 16 rushes for 61 yards with 2 TDS and he WON, Allen was 13/28 for 153 and  3 INTs with 5 rushes for 26 yards and 1 TD and he LOST.  How many passing yards per game he got vs what Allen got vs the Pats are irrelevant. The key thing for me is that Jackson rose to the challenge and defeated the Champions in a high pressure statement game. Unfortunately Josh hasn't done that yet. I hope Josh can learn from his mistakes and progress like Jackson seems to have done this year.