TwistofFate Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: I wasn't referencing Josh Allen specifically, or any particular game. I meant that in general a 300 yard game by itself does not mean a QB has the ability to "take over a game". There are always anomalies. Now whether the inability to throw for 300 yards is indicative of something, that is a different conversation. I understand that, but I was using Allens garbage time as an example. What does it say? Its says that there's no chance at victory when down if you cant put up big numbers at the Qb position. 1
oldmanfan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 8 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: If you have a quarterback they can't throw for 300 yards you aren't going anywhere in the playoffs. I want Super Bowl wins and that's not going to happen with a quarterback that cant throw for 300 yards. You have shown your true colors, a person that doesn't understand today's modern NFL and the importance of a dominant Qb. Your screen name says it all. Congrats on living in the 80s. Whats the strength of schedule? Hes put up them stats against the worst statistical defenses in the NFL....and still couldn't post a 300 yard game. What was the score of last year’s Super Bowl? What you youngsters don’t get is that defense wins championships. Oh wait, you know what? I’m wrong. Because you said that very thing yesterday. You said offense wins games but defense wins championships. You are so interested in slamming Allen you can’t even remember what you post. Allen will throw for 300 at some point. Then you’ll have to find some new quasi-stat to go after. Going into this season it was completion percentage. Now it’s 300 yards. I will say again: let Allen be Allen. Figure out a way for the fourth quarter Allen to be that the whole game. Do that everything will be fine.
TwistofFate Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: What was the score of last year’s Super Bowl? What you youngsters don’t get is that defense wins championships. Oh wait, you know what? I’m wrong. Because you said that very thing yesterday. You said offense wins games but defense wins championships. You are so interested in slamming Allen you can’t even remember what you post. Allen will throw for 300 at some point. Then you’ll have to find some new quasi-stat to go after. Going into this season it was completion percentage. Now it’s 300 yards. I will say again: let Allen be Allen. Figure out a way for the fourth quarter Allen to be that the whole game. Do that everything will be fine. I remember clearly what I wrote. You conviently left out the first part of the quote... OFFENSE wins games...You aren't getting to a championship without winning games offensively. I could care less about what the score of last years Super Bowl is, its irrelevant. Both of those teams got there with high level Qb play....period, end of story. At the next level you need to bring a defense, but you aren't getting to the next level without an OFFENSE. Ill be one of the first to congratulate Allen on 300+, im not rooting against him, I simply don't believe in him...big difference. Make me a believer... because with each passing week, each fumble, each interception, and each mediocre performance, I drift further and further from the belief he is a franchise guy. Edited October 31, 2019 by TwistofFate 1
buffaloboyinATL Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: I understand that, but I was using Allens garbage time as an example. What does it say? Its says that there's no chance at victory when down if you cant put up big numbers at the Qb position. In a one game scenario it could mean a number of things. It could indicate issues with the QB, the coaches/gameplan, the WR's, the offensive line etc. It could also could indicate bad weather, a superior Defense etc... I know these potential explanations could also be labeled as excuses, but my point is, without all of the information, blame for a lack of a 300 yard game can't be automatically placed on the QB.
oldmanfan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, TwistofFate said: I remember clearly what I wrote. You conviently left out the first part of the quote... OFFENSE wins games...You aren't getting to a championship without winning games. I could care less about what the score of last years Super Bowl is, its irrelevant. Both of those teams got there with high level Qb play....period, end of story. At the next level you need to bring a defense, but you aren't getting to the next level without an OFFENSE. Ill be one of the first to congratulate Allen on 300+, im not rooting against him, I simply don't believe in him...big difference. Make me a believer... because with each passing week, each fumble, each interception, and each mediocre performance, I drift further and further from the belief he is a franchise guy. I think we all get your act by now. You decided Allen wouldn’t be the guy early on. And you just want to be right. When he throws for 300, I can pretty much write the posts we’ll see from you. Things like it didn’t count because the defense was bad, or that a 60 yard completion was a fluke, or he threw for 300 but it should have been 400. I can’t wait to see what your next straw man will be. For me, I want the Bills to win games, as most of us do. Join in.
Mango Posted October 31, 2019 Author Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said: In a one game scenario it could mean a number of things. It could indicate issues with the QB, the coaches/gameplan, the WR's, the offensive line etc. It could also could indicate bad weather, a superior Defense etc... I know these potential explanations could also be labeled as excuses, but my point is, without all of the information, blame for a lack of a 300 yard game can't be automatically placed on the QB. I think overall you are right. But most of that comes into play whether a QB puts up a single 300 yard game in the first 15 games. IE coaching, matchupe etc. all fall into place by week one or 15. Allen is at 19 now. It is pretty rarefied air, the company is not great there. Does it mean he can't be the next great QB? No. But he would definitely be the very first to do so. 2
Coach Tuesday Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, Mango said: I think overall you are right. But most of that comes into play whether a QB puts up a single 300 yard game in the first 15 games. IE coaching, matchupe etc. all fall into place by week one or 15. Allen is at 19 now. It is pretty rarefied air, the company is not great there. Does it mean he can't be the next great QB? No. But he would definitely be the very first to do so. I mean - he had a HISTORICALLY bad group of receivers last year, not sure whether that matters but it's something to consider. This is really his first season with NFL-quality pass catchers. The entire group last year was replacement-level at best.
GoBills808 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I think we all get your act by now. You decided Allen wouldn’t be the guy early on. And you just want to be right. When he throws for 300, I can pretty much write the posts we’ll see from you. Things like it didn’t count because the defense was bad, or that a 60 yard completion was a fluke, or he threw for 300 but it should have been 400. I can’t wait to see what your next straw man will be. For me, I want the Bills to win games, as most of us do. Join in. At the top of the page I posted some of Allen's projected stats this season compared to last year. Every one of them has improved across the board. His response: but what was the comparative strength of schedule? Which, of course, is a totally valid point...if you aren't the same guy using a 300 yard game as a QB success barometer. A statistical truism that people will find figures that support their opinions and ignore ones that contradict it. For me, it's pretty simple. Is Allen improving? Yes. Is he where he needs to be in order to be 'the guy'? No. Is he on pace? Probably. Do 300 yard games matter at all in these determinations? Probably not.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 49 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: Not really. The ball is moving down field, right? The sticks continue to move, right? Hitting guys in stride on slants, screens, and seams lead to big gains. Tom Brady has made a career out of it. Then the defense sits on a route, your Wr pops a double move and you hit a huge pass. You might be cool with 10 incompletions in a row, but personally, for me, its pathetic. I already noted they were short yardage plays total. Which teams and QBs do all the time and it’s incredibly dumb.
GoBills808 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said: I mean - he had a HISTORICALLY bad group of receivers last year, not sure whether that matters but it's something to consider. This is really his first season with NFL-quality pass catchers. The entire group last year was replacement-level at best. He had a rough offensive line as well. Oh, and he got injured. And don't forget he was 30th in attempts.
TheElectricCompany Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 300+ yards is a pretty low bar to hit. Let's stop pretending it's daunting. Washington is in full dumpster fire mode and makes a great candidate for Josh to torch. Edited October 31, 2019 by TheElectricCompany 1
TwistofFate Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: I think we all get your act by now. You decided Allen wouldn’t be the guy early on. And you just want to be right. When he throws for 300, I can pretty much write the posts we’ll see from you. Things like it didn’t count because the defense was bad, or that a 60 yard completion was a fluke, or he threw for 300 but it should have been 400. I can’t wait to see what your next straw man will be. For me, I want the Bills to win games, as most of us do. Join in. It has nothing to do with being right and everything to do with actually watching football, and the Bills aren't the only team I watch. The is no "act." Its called reality. We've won, we are 5-2, but the reality is we've played poor teams, our defense has bailed out Allen with his turnovers and fumbles game after game against those poor teams. He hasn't had a dominant performance all season even playing against all sub par defenses. We've invested in recievers, running backs, TE and offensive lineman to give him the best chance at success. He hasnt taken advantage of it imo. Its troubling he hasn't been able to light up one team this year despite the weapons added around him. I need to see more, much more before he can be called a franchise guy.
GoBills808 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 In 2019, there are three QBs averaging 300 or more passing yards per game right now. Their teams are a combined 10-11. There are also three QBs averaging between 210-215 passing yards per game right now. Their teams are a combined 16-3.
buffaloboyinATL Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, Mango said: I think overall you are right. But most of that comes into play whether a QB puts up a single 300 yard game in the first 15 games. IE coaching, matchupe etc. all fall into place by week one or 15. Allen is at 19 now. It is pretty rarefied air, the company is not great there. Does it mean he can't be the next great QB? No. But he would definitely be the very first to do so. I have to admit, it is an interesting data point. As we know, Allen seems to take a while in games before he hits his stride and plays to his apparent capabilities. I guess we have to hope his career arch will be the same. Hopefully he will be a 'late bloomer" and continue to progress as he gets more comfortable. 1
Billsfan1972 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, TwistofFate said: ? I just clarified for you in writing that I'd rather see a loss with growth than a win based in average play. What exactly more do I have to own? If we continue to win against sub par opponents with sub par play, we arent going anywhere. If we lose a couple games against top tier teams but Allen steps up his game and throws for 350 and 3tds, Im fine with it. If he's showing growth in that loss, Id rather see that then winning against a team thats winless by way of ONE good drive in the 4th quarter....period. This is what people don't get..... This is a QB league. We have no idea what The Bills have in Allen due to the coaching, game planning & defense first mantra of this staff. Take a look at Chicago who has no idea whjat to do, because they have a tough schedule & no where near as dominant a D as they thought they had along with a QB they aren't sure is what they hoped for. Same in Jacksonville last year and many others. It is having a QB that can rally a team when needed that the Bills need to firgure out if they have. Not being able to throw for 300 & put up 30+ points is a real concern. And what happens next year when the Bills have a tougher schedule as the # 2 team in the division & SF, Seattle & LA Rams to start on the schedule? 1
Kelly the Dog Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 Cleveland thought they had their QB and now they don’t know. The Jets thought they had their QB and now they don’t know. Tampa thought they had their QB and now they don’t know. Tennessee thought they had their QB and now they don’t know.
oldmanfan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 38 minutes ago, TwistofFate said: It has nothing to do with being right and everything to do with actually watching football, and the Bills aren't the only team I watch. The is no "act." Its called reality. We've won, we are 5-2, but the reality is we've played poor teams, our defense has bailed out Allen with his turnovers and fumbles game after game against those poor teams. He hasn't had a dominant performance all season even playing against all sub par defenses. We've invested in recievers, running backs, TE and offensive lineman to give him the best chance at success. He hasnt taken advantage of it imo. Its troubling he hasn't been able to light up one team this year despite the weapons added around him. I need to see more, much more before he can be called a franchise guy. I agree he’s not a franchise guy yet. None of the guys drafted two years ago are, because it takes time. 1
oldmanfan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 51 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: This is what people don't get..... This is a QB league. We have no idea what The Bills have in Allen due to the coaching, game planning & defense first mantra of this staff. Take a look at Chicago who has no idea whjat to do, because they have a tough schedule & no where near as dominant a D as they thought they had along with a QB they aren't sure is what they hoped for. Same in Jacksonville last year and many others. It is having a QB that can rally a team when needed that the Bills need to firgure out if they have. Not being able to throw for 300 & put up 30+ points is a real concern. And what happens next year when the Bills have a tougher schedule as the # 2 team in the division & SF, Seattle & LA Rams to start on the schedule? Ok, you’re really reaching the point of being ridiculous at this point. Yes, people know good QB play is important for a successful NFL team. To say people don’t realize that is sophomoric. What people are saying is just what you said above, that we don’t know about Allen yet. And the reason we don’t know is because it takes time to figure out, and it involves a lot more than just the player, I.e. coaching, supporting cast, etc. The difference is you seem to have cast a premature vote, for reasons we can only guess at.
Billsfan1972 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Ok, you’re really reaching the point of being ridiculous at this point. Yes, people know good QB play is important for a successful NFL team. To say people don’t realize that is sophomoric. What people are saying is just what you said above, that we don’t know about Allen yet. And the reason we don’t know is because it takes time to figure out, and it involves a lot more than just the player, I.e. coaching, supporting cast, etc. The difference is you seem to have cast a premature vote, for reasons we can only guess at. Yes my vote is coaching, game plan & the overall coaching philosophy is stunting him and it is taking longer to figure out than it should. 300 should be simple, but hasn't been for the Bills in 40 games (39 under McDermott).
oldmanfan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Yes my vote is coaching, game plan & the overall coaching philosophy is stunting him and it is taking longer to figure out than it should. 300 should be simple, but hasn't been for the Bills in 40 games (39 under McDermott). But yet they are 5-2. Also look at a team like the Ravens. Different ways to win.
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