dave mcbride Posted October 31, 2019 Author Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: Too true. To be fair, I do think that the NE position coaches work overtime studying calls and methodically determine what kind of physicality is likely to be called and what is likely to skate. Then they coach their players to be "handsy" along those lines. So we fans watching the cameras see it, but there's actually a basis for why they get away with it. Tre White is handsy too - and in a good way. Edited October 31, 2019 by dave mcbride
DrDawkinstein Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 5 hours ago, Seven-N-Nine said: The current regime makes just as many irresponsible moves (Benjamin anyone?). They trade up in every draft usually passing on much better talent in the process. This team is no better off, they are not really any better than Fitz, Orton or Tyrod teams, they STILL can only beat the worst teams in the NFL, and barely. McDermott sucks IMO, and his comment shows how much he sucks. You're preaching to the choir, my man: 5 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said: Right. On Pace for two playoff appearances in three years. No better. You're a ######. More luck than brains on those playoff appearances tho. However, I am a big proponent of the old saying "It's better to be lucky than to be good". But if you compare talent and play, our 2014/2105 teams were much "better" than this year's. 1
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: More luck than brains on those playoff appearances tho. However, I am a big proponent of the old saying "It's better to be lucky than to be good". But if you compare talent and play, our 2014/2105 teams were much "better" than this year's. Appearance. "Appearances" hasn't appeared yet (avert Jinx!) I'm not so sure about that. 2014 we had the defense for reals. The offense wasn't quite up to the task. But, we would have made the playoffs in other seasons. 2015, the offense improved to "good enough with a decent defense" but the defense and overall discipline/quality of the team's prep took too big of a step back. This year, I think we have the defense and I think the offense could become good enough if we continue to control turnovers and learn to focus on what we do well. I have my worries, including worries about Daboll's play calling and lack of change in response to known tendencies and worries about ST. 1 1
Sig1Hunter Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 The biggest difference? The refs look the other way and let him get away with all of the holding now that he’s on the Pats*. On the Bills, his clutching and grabbing was constantly called. He does the same thing with the Pats*, but it’s rarely called now. 3
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Mikey152 said: This is the truth... Gilmore was good in Buffalo, but he was also super handsy and got called for it quite a bit. Now, in NE, he is just "physical" GILMORE ISN'T EVEN THE BEST ON THE TEAM FitzInterception Blockhead Darnold Josh Allen playing like Peterman take those away ... and they are JAG's
Buffalo716 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 9 hours ago, billrooter said: You really believe he was just as good here? We must have been watching different games he got beat alot here IMO and he was a ***** when it came to tackling. I was pumped when we drafted him and always said he was all pro caliber. Guess I was right And he did not get beat alot here. He gave up like 13 TDs in 5 seasons here. He was elite Every player gives up some catches. You also say he can't tackle but have you seen Levi Wallace? Gilmore ran into 250 LB Eddie Lacy full speed and knocked him out of a game. Levi Wallace runs away from Boston Scott and Jordan Howard 2
ChronicAndKnuckles Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 3:27 PM, 2003Contenders said: The Bills have a long history of drafting quality CBs -- Winfield, Clements, Gilmore, and now White. They let the first 3 walk before their 2nd contract, let's hope that doesn't happen with Tre. Don’t forget McGee.
row_33 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 He likes it better with the Pats? thats worth all these replies. 1
Reks Ryan Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 3:45 PM, Kelly the Dog said: That's just not true IMO. He used to not wrap guys up, and they would sometimes break tackles. He would come in and lower his shoulder into receivers or runners instead of tackling them. But it was very often NOT avoiding contact, it was avoiding tackling. If anything he was more likely to get hurt like that than less. I understand your Point about the bad form and that was part of the issue. But there were definitely plays near the end of his time in Bflo wheee he avoided contact. He had mental lapses and appeared to lose focus. I though he checked out on the Bills at the end.
SoTier Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 3:38 PM, 2003Contenders said: Can't argue with you here. I guess what I am getting at is that (and this stretched across various administrations) the front office(s) failed to be proactive in contract negotiations. Quality CBs are a huge commodity in the NFL, which is why they command such large contracts. When White signs his next contract, it will likely make him the highest paid CB in the NFL (until the next top notch CB becomes a free agent); the Bills need to accept that and work with him and his agent in good faith -- before he becomes a free agent and gains leverage. After all, part of this long term plan is to draft well and keep our own good players, right? I don't think it's about the Bills failing to be "proactive". I think that it was a corporate policy under Wilson's ownership and even into Pegula's tenure when Russ Brandon was running the ball. From the late 1990s through 2017, the Bills frequently drafted DBs in the first or second rounds, traded/let the best ones walk in FA, and replaced them with more first or second rounders. They also drafted and then disposed of RBs similarly (Travis Henry (2002), Willis McGahee (2003), Marshawn Lynch (2007), and CJ Spiller (2010)). 1
BobbyC81 Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 12:33 PM, wagon127 said: I believe everything Gilmore says here. For 19 seasons this team has dominated the NFL. They don't always win the superbowl, but they are almost always 1 of the final 4 teams. It has to be coaching. Some how, their receivers are always open, regardless of a pick play or not. Their defenses dominate when Tom Brady is having a less then steller day. The fact that teams are unable to give new England 1 losing season for the last 19 years, is an indication of how bad the coaching is on most of the other NFL teams. That nobody can figure out what Belichick does, to consistently start beating him. Mainly the Bills, Jets and Dolphins. I hope McDermott is able to beat the patriots soon. I heard mention of this recently: Belechick gets the list of the refs for the upcoming game, reviews what kinds of penalties they normally call, and then plans and coaches accordingly. Since I never heard of this before, I wonder how many other coaches do this. Talk about thorough. You can bet it never even crossed Rex’s mind.
SoTier Posted October 31, 2019 Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 3:45 PM, Kelly the Dog said: That's just not true IMO. He used to not wrap guys up, and they would sometimes break tackles. He would come in and lower his shoulder into receivers or runners instead of tackling them. But it was very often NOT avoiding contact, it was avoiding tackling. If anything he was more likely to get hurt like that than less. ^^^ On 10/30/2019 at 3:52 PM, Buffalo716 said: I don't take much stock in the Gilmore can't tackle. He is a super physical outside corner. He played with a broken wrist! He knocked Eddie Lacy out of a game before.. 250 pounds... Not 1 other corner in the league would take him on like that. You need to preserve at some point You wanna know a corner who won't and cant tackle? Levi Wallace... Turns his back and runs downfield ^^^ On 10/30/2019 at 4:11 PM, C.Biscuit97 said: Yes!!! People still think this. Thank for Belichick took that bum off our hands. He was holding this team back. Jerk didn’t even smile when he got drafted! I’m a weirdo but I would take the best cover corner over a bad cover cb who can tackle well. You guys are missing the point here. Gilmore left because the Bills wouldn't pay him and has had remarkable success, but that's not really on the Bills. The Bills FO/HCs don't make mistakes like letting great players go; their hands are forced because they couldn't "afford" to pay top notch players or those players "really didn't want to be here" or "weren't all that good here". Exhibit A: On 10/30/2019 at 4:28 PM, H2o said: I still think he never wanted to be here. Exhibit B: 20 hours ago, folz said: He didn't want to be in Buffalo and that last year, there is no question that he avoided contact and tackles. I remember one play where he literally jumped away to the side like a bullfighter. So, I wasn't sorry to see him go. Yes the team was a complete dysfunctional mess and maybe it sucked to play for a team or coaches like that, but you're also playing for your teammates, the fans, your family and friends, your own competitiveness, and oh yeah, because they're paying you a lot of money to do so. But he didn't do that his last year in Buffalo. There was a little quit in him. So, in essence, no matter how skilled he was, he was not a culture fit. Didn't have the DNA that McDermott and Beane talk about---self-motivated, team-first football players. Then he goes to a team where he is held accountable, where he doesn't have a disgruntled past with the team, where not even the Hall of Fame quarterback gets a pass. So, you better be playing your best ball. And to his credit, he is. But it was also the right move for the Bills at that time. He is a player that can walk into an established culture and be part of it, but not necessarily one of the guys that you want to build your culture around. Is he one of the best corners in the league now? Yes. Would he have been if he stayed in Buffalo? Probably not. These same lies were spread about two other future All Pros that were sent packing while Russ Brandon was in charge: LT Jason Peters and RB Marshawn Lynch. 18 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: The Pegulas should have cleaned house immediately after the 2016 season, hired a new GM and let him hire his HC. Then the team would have been in position to select their new QB in the 2017 draft. Absolutely true!!! It's the worse decision Pegula made. What good did it do to get rid of the supposed "dead wood" from the Wilson era when they left the head honcho, Russ Brandon, stay on. If you truly want to change a corporate culture, you have to start at the top, not at the bottom, of an organization.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 14 hours ago, Seven-N-Nine said: The current regime makes just as many irresponsible moves (Benjamin anyone?). They trade up in every draft usually passing on much better talent in the process. This team is no better off, they are not really any better than Fitz, Orton or Tyrod teams, they STILL can only beat the worst teams in the NFL, and barely. McDermott sucks IMO, and his comment shows how much he sucks. I wasn't there, but it seems to me that McDermott's comment may reflect critical self-scouting as well as criticism of the past (eg trade for Benjamin Gaines) As for whether they're better than the previous Bills regimes, well, time will tell. They either are or they aren't, but we're 7 games into the season and none of us know yet. 1
H2o Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, SoTier said: You guys are missing the point here. Gilmore left because the Bills wouldn't pay him and has had remarkable success, but that's not really on the Bills. The Bills FO/HCs don't make mistakes like letting great players go; their hands are forced because they couldn't "afford" to pay top notch players or those players "really didn't want to be here" or "weren't all that good here". These same lies were spread about two other future All Pros that were sent packing while Russ Brandon was in charge: LT Jason Peters and RB Marshawn Lynch Uhhhhhhh, yeah, if you say so. Gilmore looked absolutely ecstatic when his name was called for the Bills. His demeanor never really changed while he was here. This isn't based off of "lies" spread by the organization either. Anyone with the smallest measure of common sense knew Gilmore was gone as soon as he had the chance.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 55 minutes ago, H2o said: Uhhhhhhh, yeah, if you say so. Gilmore looked absolutely ecstatic when his name was called for the Bills. His demeanor never really changed while he was here. This isn't based off of "lies" spread by the organization either. Anyone with the smallest measure of common sense knew Gilmore was gone as soon as he had the chance. The draft day disappointment is an entirely false narrative. He explained it well himself directly afterwards. 1 1
folz Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 3 hours ago, SoTier said: You guys are missing the point here. Gilmore left because the Bills wouldn't pay him and has had remarkable success, but that's not really on the Bills. The Bills FO/HCs don't make mistakes like letting great players go; their hands are forced because they couldn't "afford" to pay top notch players or those players "really didn't want to be here" or "weren't all that good here". These same lies were spread about two other future All Pros that were sent packing while Russ Brandon was in charge: LT Jason Peters and RB Marshawn Lynch. Hey So Tier, really it is just a difference in philosophy. Some fans want the most talented players, no matter what, because they just want to win. And I get that. We have been losing for so long, that a lot of people just want a winner at any cost. While other fans, like myself, want to like the team we root for, and want the players to be happy about playing for our team, give their full effort, etc. Yes, usually more talent will win over lesser talent, but we have also seen teams stacked with talent that didn't win because it just wasn't the right mix of players or the players were unhappy for whatever reasons. But, I'm not sure what you are talking about with lies. Do you really think that at the time each of them left, Marshawn, Peters, or Gilmore really wanted to stay in Buffalo? If you do, I think you are forgetting a lot of details and may be a little delusional. Marshawn obviously didn't like Buffalo. He was actually very vocal about it. When he left, it was the 4th year of his rookie deal. So, they would have had to make a long term investment in him. But, he wanted out and the Bills didn't want to take that risk because of all of the off the field incidents. Remember, he was one more incident away from a lengthy suspension and he was a public relations disaster. Plus, at the time, he was being outplayed by Fred Jackson. Why take that risk? Did he go on to play great for Seattle, sure. But at the time, it was the right decision to let him go. Peters was kind of a 50/50 thing. Yes, he was outplaying his contract, but he still had two years left on that contract. The team wanted to wait till the end of the season to discuss a new contract, and he wanted to be paid now. So, he basically forced his way off the team. And I will be the first one to say that I think the team handled that whole situation very poorly. But I don't think Jason and his agent handled it well either. By the time he did leave, he was so mad that Buffalo wouldn't have ever got his best again. Why would you want to keep a guy prisoner? He wouldn't have helped the team because he was so disgruntled. And with Gilmore, do you really think if the Bills offered the same contract as any other team in the league, he would have stayed? I really don't think so. And you just can't convince me that he didn't play half-assed down the stretch in 2016. He did and it was pretty obvious. In comes McDermott. Do you really think he wanted to build his new culture around a player that kind of quit a bit on the team? I mean, you make it sound like there were no reasons whatsoever behind the moves. Like the Bills one day out of the blue just decided to let three All Pro players go for no reason. And let's face it, neither Gilmore nor Lynch were playing at an All Pro level at the end for Buffalo anyhow. (Peters was maybe getting close to that.) After a couple of promising (but not spectacular) seasons (avg. 1,075 yds, 4.0/carry, 7.5 TDs), Lynch's last 17 games for the Bills he averaged 36 yards/game, 3.9 per carry, and had just 2 TDs (plus all of the off the field stuff). And Gilmore basically packed it in for half a season. Anyhow, it's not like we are saying these guys sucked or weren't very talented players. We are saying that with the circumstances surrounding each player at the time they left, it was probably the right decision for the Bills. A disgruntled employee can be a cancer to the whole team. Plus, like I said, I just want to root for players and a team that I like. It is more fun for me that way. And part of that is them actually wanting to play for our team. I kind of think that is really important. Like with the 90s teams. Those guys loved each other and they loved playing for Buffalo, they were part of the family. I think that is exactly what McDermott is building now. I don't know, maybe it is different for you, but don't paint it as we are lying about these particular players situations and that we are saying the team can do no wrong. We suffered a 17-year playoff drought. We all know full well that the team has made a ton of wrong moves. I just don't think that's the case with these three players. Peters is the only one I wish had stayed, but by the end of the contract dispute, I was fine with him going because of the animosity that had been created. Now, If you want to go back and talk about Nate Clements or Antoine Winfield or Pat Williams, etc. I'll gladly discuss why the Bills should have kept those players. I just think with the other three you are seeing both with hindsight and a bit with blinders on. 1
billrooter Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 18 hours ago, GunnerBill said: He was never a great tackler - too many shoulder tackles and not enough wrapping up and he still has a bit of an issue there. But this idea that we shunned tackling is overblown too. I wouldn't say it is a strength of his game in comparison to his coverage skills but he can tackle. He got burnt alot more than alot are letting on while here, and unfortunately for anybody saying he was playing at the same level while here, tackling is a huge part of the game. I remember reading the draft reports big physical corner, should read big corner who tackles for *****, how can you be physical if you can't tackle worth a *****?
Seven-N-Nine Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: but we're 7 games into the season and none of us know yet I suppose I look at it like we're 39 games into McDermott's head coaching career. Edited November 1, 2019 by Seven-N-Nine 1
GunnerBill Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 1 hour ago, billrooter said: He got burnt alot more than alot are letting on while here, and unfortunately for anybody saying he was playing at the same level while here, tackling is a huge part of the game. I remember reading the draft reports big physical corner, should read big corner who tackles for *****, how can you be physical if you can't tackle worth a *****? I'm sorry but this is simply not right. He was extremely good here. Bills fans took against him because he didn't smile on draft night.
Mat68 Posted November 1, 2019 Posted November 1, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 3:27 PM, Coach Tuesday said: What does this say about that irresponsible previous regime which drafted him? Or the current regime who let him walk so that they could trade down, pass on two potential All Pro QBs, to draft his replacement? Due to contracts already paid they didnt have the money to pay him.
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